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Old 05-12-2021, 08:29 AM   #1
RingMyBell
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Default Why are my torpedoes missing?

Hi: I played SH3 a ton back in 2006--2007. Very excited to take it up again 15 years later.
I am using LSH3 and I'm trying to improve my manual targeting accuracy.
When a torpedo misses, is there any way to find out why?
Is accuracy improved if my U-boat is stationary?
Finally, is the AOB that I enter supposed to be my current AOB, prior to torpedo launch, or is it the predicted AOB for when the torpedo strikes my target?
Thanks!
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Old 05-12-2021, 10:40 AM   #2
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AOB Is by far the most biggest problem in accurate torpedoes. If that isn’t correct, you will have issues.

Number one thing you need to do is make sure you’re close to your target. you want to be within 1000 m to negate any error in your calculations.

The further away you are, the grosser the error in your calculation.
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Old 05-13-2021, 04:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMyBell View Post
Hi: I played SH3 a ton back in 2006--2007. Very excited to take it up again 15 years later.
I am using LSH3 and I'm trying to improve my manual targeting accuracy.
When a torpedo misses, is there any way to find out why?
Is accuracy improved if my U-boat is stationary?
Finally, is the AOB that I enter supposed to be my current AOB, prior to torpedo launch, or is it the predicted AOB for when the torpedo strikes my target?
Thanks!
If your TDC is tied to your scope (TDC in auto), your AoB will update as your bearing does.

My procedure:
ID the target and lock it.
Range, Bearing, MARK! (enter a range at the scratchpad).
Start the clock and plot that range and bearing and drop a mark there.
At, 3m15s, Range, Bearing, MARK! Enter this new range at scratchpad and plot it.
Draw a line from first mark through 2nd mark. You now have speed by dividing that distance by 100.
Extend that line a bit. Now drawn an angle backwards to the 2nd mark and then to ownship. You now have AoB
TDC to manual and enter the AoB and speed, then set it back to auto.

Repeat at least once as the target gets closer.

With map updates on, this is stupidly simple. With them off, it's a bit less accurate.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:39 PM   #4
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Very helpful advice--thanks to you both! Your method for computing AOB is especially clever.
I take it there is no way to tell if a missed torpedo arrived too soon or too late?
Wolfpack on YouTube sees a little marker of his torpedo on the map, but I don't see the markers in LSH3. Is Wolfpack using some other mod? In his videos, you can sometimes tell why his torpedoes miss from the little marker.
Thanks again!
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:52 PM   #5
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I will start by answering the specific questions you had. The AOB input is the AOB at the moment you fire, but as has been mentioned, if the TDC is set to update, the AOB will update as you turn your optics, as the bearing changes. So capture an AOB at some particular point that is easy to recognize, and then set the TDC to update and as long as you don’t change course, the AOB should still be correct.

Also, your own speed has no impact on the firing solution itself.

The following are really the “first principles” of shooting, if you want to think of them that way:

1. Speed: The closer your torpedo track is to perpendicular to the target’s course, that is, closer it is to a 90° impact angle, the more speed matters. Speed matters less at lower impact angles, because the speed across the line of sight is lower (lower apparent speed). Generally, at a range of 1000 m or less, you are allowed up to a knot of speed error at a 90° impact angle, up to two knots of error at lower impact angles like 40°. So the takeaway of this is, if you are unsure of target speed, but you are more certain of AOB, try to shoot at a lower impact angle. As always, get close.

2. AOB: By far the easiest to estimate, and error in it has less of an impact on the solution the closer the torpedo track is to 90°. Case in point, at ranges of 1000 m or less, you are allowed up to 10° of AOB error. At lower impact angles this approaches 5°. German doctrine was typically to wait until the target reached 90° AOB before they fired, as it is easiest to estimate by eye. Try to shoot at lower AOBs for higher speed targets. And again, always get close.

3. Range: Here is a huge takeaway, and if you forget everything else in this post, remember this one thing: the lower the gyro angle, that is, the less the torpedo has to turn, the less range matters to the solution. This is true regardless of what the AOB is or what the impact angle is. The calculation for lead angle does not factor in range at all - it is irrelevant as long as the torpedo does not turn. In practice, if the gyro angle is within 20° of your bow, don’t worry about range. The only reason there is a range setting on the computer to begin with is because you are not literally shooting torpedoes out of the lens of your periscope. Instead, the point at which the torpedo gets on course is some 30 m in front of the optics, and so the range setting is needed when the torpedo has to turn like that in order to correct for what is called parallax error. But, if the torpedo does not have to turn, there is no such correction needed, and the range can simply be eyeballed, roughly estimated. In practice, the Germans always strived to minimize the gyro angle for this very reason. And the range was simply eyeballed, normally by how much of the lens the target filled up, definitely not an exact science in practice.

In summary:

1. Get below 1000 m to shoot.

2. Wait til the target presents a 90° AOB as it is easiest to estimate.

3. Strive to get a target speed to within a knot. The easiest way to do this is to simply travel parallel to the target for a while at a long range and match the target’s speed, which was the standard preferred method historically (known as Ausdampfen).

4. To the extent possible, try to shoot when the gyro angle is anywhere from 340° to 20°, that is, within 20° of your bow. This way, you only need to roughly eyeball range, if at all.

Last edited by derstosstrupp; 05-13-2021 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 05-14-2021, 02:34 AM   #6
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RingMyBell!
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Old 05-14-2021, 08:32 AM   #7
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Assuming torpedo failures, etc. aren't part of the problem:

1. Determine target speed. Doing so via the bow wake and/or smoke works fine, as does matching it's speed per derstosstrupp's tip.
2. Position your boat to intercept the target at a 90 degree angle. Google "Fast 90 targeting" for details.
3. Position your boat to be 3000 meters or less from the above intercept point.
4. Sink the target

It really is that simple.
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Old 05-16-2021, 04:24 PM   #8
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While it may not always be the cause of a miss, the delay of opening the torpedo tube doors (because you would have forgotten them) can result in them being late to the party. Depending on the length of the target they might still impact but further aft of the target. Another rule to remember, ALWAYS open torpedo doors before you fire! If you don't, the crew/boat itself does it, and then it takes a few seconds.
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Old 05-17-2021, 12:40 AM   #9
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In my opinion, target speed is the most important factor to precisely get.
You can have a perfect AOB, if your speed is off by 1 or 2 knots you will miss!
If you have a perfect target speed and you have a slightly wrong AOB, you still can hit! (Within 1000/1500m).
Distance is only necessary to get the chrono impact confirmation, and doesn’t influence on your firing solution. 90% of time i let it to default 500m and always hit.
You can determine target speed via the U-Jadg chrono like they did, but best is to be static for a minute to get the precise result. If you are running 2 knots, you’ll have to add few knots to your result via the special chart (depending what GUI you are using).
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Old 05-17-2021, 07:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifi View Post
Distance is only necessary to get the chrono impact confirmation, and doesn’t influence on your firing solution.
IF the gyro angle is low. If you have a high gyro angle especially at close range, range needs to be spot on so that the computer can appropriately correct for parallax. That’s very important, because people might get inside a convoy and try to shoot large angled shots and wonder why they are missing.

The relative impacts of speed and AOB, as I mentioned, also highly dependent on the impact angle. At impact angles close to perpendicular, speed is more important, at smaller impact angles like 40°, the solution is more sensitive to AOB errors and speed is more forgiving, because the lateral apparent speed is lower. This is why the U-boat commander’s handbook recommends firing at smaller AOBs if speed is uncertain, or for high speed targets.
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Old 05-17-2021, 09:00 AM   #11
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I'm very grateful for your various insights and suggestions. I am using your advice and having much more success now.
I try to get close and at a 90 degree angle to the target. Then I lie in wait, then ambush! It's enormous fun.
I have become more aware of the importance of accurately estimating the target's speed.
I have also learned not to rush shots--better to pass and try again later than to rush and miss. Perhaps with more practice I'll get better at quick shots on the fly.
"Silent Hunter" is the perfect name. It really does feel like hunting.
I am still struggling to identify targets correctly. To me, the ship recognition manual is frustrating to use when I'm on high alert preparing for the next shot. However, I am beginning to think that target identification is not very important (except of course for confirming that the target is not from a neutral country). Specifying a torpedo depth of 4m seems to work well and if the range and speed estimates are correct, recognizing the target's identity is not helpful. Or do you disagree?
Thanks again!
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Old 05-17-2021, 09:09 AM   #12
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Glad to hear it! And absolutely, the recognition manual is not needed. The real skippers generally used the “recognition manuals” (which were more often just lists of ships with ID numbers/letters, not pictures) to identify ships by their identifying number that had been radioed in the distress signal, or from info they obtained from survivors. They generally did not know the target parameters (height, length, tonnage etc) from a book prior to shooting. They matched the target’s course and speed on the surface to figure out the data, and if that wasn’t possible, they simply estimated. Getting very close mitigates the impact of wrong estimates.
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Old 05-17-2021, 09:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derstosstrupp View Post
IF the gyro angle is low. If you have a high gyro angle especially at close range, range needs to be spot on so that the computer can appropriately correct for parallax. That’s very important, because people might get inside a convoy and try to shoot large angled shots and wonder why they are missing.

The relative impacts of speed and AOB, as I mentioned, also highly dependent on the impact angle. At impact angles close to perpendicular, speed is more important, at smaller impact angles like 40°, the solution is more sensitive to AOB errors and speed is more forgiving, because the lateral apparent speed is lower. This is why the U-boat commander’s handbook recommends firing at smaller AOBs if speed is uncertain, or for high speed targets.
Yes right. I always try to fire low giro angle. High giro are not for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMyBell View Post
I'm very grateful for your various insights and suggestions. I am using your advice and having much more success now.
I try to get close and at a 90 degree angle to the target. Then I lie in wait, then ambush! It's enormous fun.
I have become more aware of the importance of accurately estimating the target's speed.
I have also learned not to rush shots--better to pass and try again later than to rush and miss. Perhaps with more practice I'll get better at quick shots on the fly.
"Silent Hunter" is the perfect name. It really does feel like hunting.
I am still struggling to identify targets correctly. To me, the ship recognition manual is frustrating to use when I'm on high alert preparing for the next shot. However, I am beginning to think that target identification is not very important (except of course for confirming that the target is not from a neutral country). Specifying a torpedo depth of 4m seems to work well and if the range and speed estimates are correct, recognizing the target's identity is not helpful. Or do you disagree?
Thanks again!
I almost never identify target via the book.
Hydro man is telling me slow/medium/fast speed, and i estimate what ship i see so to know the speed i have to read on U-Jagd (up to 100m length, 150m length, 200m length). It helps to see the bow wave too for estimation, and the reports sometimes give the speed too.
I never plot things on map, i always play without map contacts. Visual estimation is my best friend
Then if i decide to shoot magnetic, i always set depth to 6M (90% of ships have >= depth) Furthermore it’s adapted to all kind of waves.
When firing contact, i usually set 5m depth.
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Old 05-17-2021, 01:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Then if i decide to shoot magnetic, i always set depth to 6M (90% of ships have >= depth) Furthermore it’s adapted to all kind of waves.
When firing contact, i usually set 5m depth.
One thing I recall Ubi did, back when Silent Hunter: Online, was still about.. was the impact depth was preset to 1.5 to 2 meters depth. I generally went with that, when rolling with SH3 & will explain the reasoning.

As it is, that depth, with the damages caused upon impact & detonation, tears a gash in the side of the ship. That hole, (with the ship being 'gutted' as it were) puts that damages at the greatest spot for the water to then flood in. The more impact det's there are, the faster the ship floods. That's barring your running into torp issues, which is.. well known that the Kriegsmarine dealt with early on & in pretty vast numbers, as I recall. Their abysmal dud rate, was just as bad, if not worse.. even given that they for the most part, again.. as I recall, solved their issues for the most part, earlier on than the U.S. fleetboat side did.

If I am remembering it correctly.. the Kriegsmarine, figured out & eliminated about 85-90% of issues with torps.. I believe & did so, around 6 months to a year in vs the Fleet boats arm, on the U.S. side, with impact issues after a year & a half (and not sure about timewise on the mag det issues... I admit, it has been a bit since I even looked at the info on this.. so, I may be a scootch off here.. just, don't shoot or keel haul Me, if I am.. ) to 2 years into the war. Basic upshot is.. the U.S. skippers, dealt with the frustration, disappointment & heart break of duds, for far longer than the enemy did..

Now, as to setting up for mag dat & the ever lovely recog manual... unless I am mistaken, they did have the books.. and on some to most, I believe they did have some info as to ship's keel depth.. NOT on all of them, mind you.. but I believe they did. For the ones they didn't.. am sure they did manage to keep up with depth settings.. & notated what worked & what didn't when it came to those settings.. when they had a couple of good mag det hits & kills.. they would keep that info, so as to use it again later on... if not even pass it along. My basis for this is... given the fact of their being ordered to track all useful info & kick it back up the chain of command.. & I believe that this sort of info, would fit the bill in those regards. Given that, I believe it just makes sense that they would have done so.

Not that it did them any good, as the war wound down to it's inevitable conclusion, that is... as by near the end, they were getting their aft ends, handed back to them.. as boat losses started to mount atrociously.

At any rate.. as far as mag det settings, I generally go with what the ship was ID'ed as.. then with the keel depth, rated as.. would the add 2 or 3 meters to that depth.. which, for Me.. unless it dudded out, rendered good end results... (again, depending on if there were any duds.. then in that case another torp or more, depending on the target in question.. being sent their way, accordingly.) For rough seas, would adjust the depth a tad deeper, depending on the waves.. also accordingly as I thought it was called for.

But.. that's just My own observations.. as I know opinions, like MPG, varies..

M. M.

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Last edited by Mad Mardigan; 05-18-2021 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 05-17-2021, 01:57 PM   #15
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In case anyone is crazy enough to follow the historical guidance on detonator settings…..

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...&postcount=253
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