US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

And that's one of the reasons he's unfit for the job. It's not that I'm against all that he stands for, and good part of it I question, it's because he acts like a spoiled six year old, always! Geez, Bloomberg raises his hand and Trump starts belittling him with his cute playground bully names instead of rising to the challenge like an adult. I have no respect for him and every time he opens his mouth there's less.

Little boys do what little boys are. Dont be so strict with him, he is still growing.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Trump is being accused of what Biden actually did! Quid pro qou Joe is as guilty as it gets.

No he isn't for cryin' out loud!


Biden: Acting on behalf of Obama admin, threatened to withold money unless Ukraine got rid of a prosecutor who was seen as corrupt by the Obama admin and other western countries.


Trump: Threatened to withold money unless Ukraine investigates a private US citizen who is the son of one of his possible political rivals.

[Jimbuna]

Billionaire former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has signalled he will join the race to secure the Democratic Party's nomination for US president.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50355758

Is he the Democrats best chance of defeating Trump?

[August]

Dowly you really need to stop drinking the blue medias koolaid.

The facts are that Biden threatened to withhold aid money from Ukraine unless they fired the prosecutor that was investigating his sons company. A son who managed to get an extremely high paying job with that company in spite of the fact that he had absolutely no experience with the nation, it's people, their language or the business of the company that hired him. You tell me why such a person would ever be considered for all that, unless it was to influence his powerful father. I'm sure if you asked the fired prosecutor might have a couple thoughts on the matter.


If you didn't hate Trump so much you'd recognize the obvious fact that Biden is as dirty as they come.

[Dowly]

I'd advice you to read articles from 2015-2016 to learn what the deal with Shokin was. He simply was corrupt.

Here's one from October 2015:
Protesters drive to Poroshenko’s mansion to demand dismissal of Shokin
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/con...in-401106.html

From March 2016:
EU hails sacking of Ukraine’s prosecutor Viktor Shokin
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...okin-1.2591190

Originally Posted by August

I'm sure if you asked the fired prosecutor might have a couple thoughts on the matter.

I'm sure of that. Would you be willing to believe him?

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Dowly

No he isn't for cryin' out loud!


Biden: Acting on behalf of Obama admin, threatened to withold money unless Ukraine got rid of a prosecutor who was seen as corrupt by the Obama admin and other western countries.


Trump: Threatened to withold money unless Ukraine investigates a private US citizen who is the son of one of his possible political rivals.

Thats too funny. I guess one could then say that corruption is in the eye of the beholder.


So the Obama admin and the 'West' influence and corrupt Ukraine's constitution, elections and political appointments processes. Thats OK, because when they do it that somehow NOT corrupt? Why because freedom and democracy? Or do think we are still on a holy and righteous crusade against the Red Menace? If Biden had nothing to fear he would have remained on the board wouldn't you think? But no, first sign of trouble and 'POOF' he disappears. He's prolly OK though, back to doing a few lines of blow a day to help him get through.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dowly

I'm sure of that. Would you be willing to believe him?

Has the Vice President ever threatened to withhold aid appropriated by Congress unless a foreign official is fired? Not just the one investigating his sons oligarch run company but anyone for any reason?

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Is he the Democrats best chance of defeating Trump?

It's not just his age of 77 now, but his orders to NY law enforcement to stop blacks first ask questions later.

This will surely do him in with the black community, plus he's just making noise to run and I do believe he means it
as an independant with 52 billion dollars of wealth he can afford to drop $5 billion on running as an independent candidate,
plus remember Bloomberg was a Republican just last year.

He's running on the "I hate Trump bandwagon too"

[August]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

This will surely do him in with the black community

And the hispanic community as well. I have a Puerto Rican friend who grew up in Brooklyn and he hates Bloomberg worse than Pelosi hates Trump. I guess being repeatedly grabbed, thrown against a wall and searched just for walking down the street looking Hispanic is irritating for some reason.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by August

Dowly you really need to stop drinking the blue medias koolaid.

The facts are that Biden threatened to withhold aid money from Ukraine unless they fired the prosecutor that was investigating his sons company. A son who managed to get an extremely high paying job with that company in spite of the fact that he had absolutely no experience with the nation, it's people, their language or the business of the company that hired him. influence his powerful father.

And this is what they also have told us here in Denmark. in the weekly magazine "The world according to President Trump".
(it's a mainstream news channel)

Markus

[vienna]

Re: the Biden vs. Ukraine prosecutor: Biden was acting as the point man on the effort to oust Shokin, not just as a representative of the US Government, but, also, on behalf of the numerous nations who also wanted Shokin out; as in many cases involving joint US and allied nation's interests, the US took the lead, mainly because we have the biggest 'clout' of any single nation or any coalition of nations. Shokin's ouster was not because of any corruption investigations he was conducting; it was just the opposite: he was accused of turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to rampant corruption and doing nothing to address the problem, The US and its allies in the ouster were balking at sending anymore aid because of concerns the funds and materiel would simply vanish into the coffers and pockets of corrupt Ukraine officials or their cronies. Shokin was not ousted because he was he was too good at his job; he was ousted because he wasn't doing his job at all and, more likely, probably profiting from his 'benign neglect'. Shokin was in no way at all a crusading prosecutor; in fact, it wasn't until he was on the cusp of dismissal that he even made any overt moves to do the job for which he was appointed; another fact is, after his dismissal, Shokin tried to shop around various 'scandalous information" to various governments and entities, bot, other than conspiracy theory mills, who will buy and/or swallow almost anything that might get them attention, everybody passed on Shokin's dog and pony show...

At the heart of Congress' probe into the president's actions is his claim that former Vice President and 2020 Democratic frontrunner Joe Biden strong-armed the Ukrainian government to fire its top prosecutor in order to thwart an investigation into a company tied to his son, Hunter Biden.

But sources ranging from former Obama administration officials to an anti-corruption advocate in Ukraine say the official, Viktor Shokin, was ousted for the opposite reason Trump and his allies claim.

It wasn't because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden's son; it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.

Shokin's inaction prompted international calls for his ouster and ultimately resulted in his removal by Ukraine's parliament.

Without pressure from Joe Biden, European diplomats, the International Monetary Fund and other international organizations, Shokin would not have been fired, said Daria Kaleniuk, co-founder and executive director of the Anti Corruption Action Centre in Kiev.

"Civil society organizations in Ukraine were pressing for his resignation," Kaleniuk said, "but no one would have cared if there had not been voices from outside this country calling on him to go."

Trump and his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani claim Biden did this to quash Shokin's investigation into Ukraine's largest gas company, Burisma Holdings, and its owner, oligarch Mykola Zlochevsky.

They say this benefited Biden's son, Hunter Biden, who served on Burisma's board of directors – for which he was paid $50,000 a month.

Their assertion is contradicted by former diplomatic officials who were following the issue at the time.

Burisma Holdings was not under scrutiny at the time Joe Biden called for Shokin's ouster, according to the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, an independent agency set up in 2014 that has worked closely with the FBI.

Shokin's office had investigated Burisma, but the probe focused on a period before Hunter Biden joined the company, according to the anti-corruption bureau.

The investigation dealt with the Ministry of Ecology, which allegedly granted special permits to Burisma between 2010 and 2012, the agency said. Hunter Biden did not join the company until 2014.

[Italics mine]


Explainer: Biden, allies pushed out Ukrainian prosecutor because he didn't pursue corruption cases --

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...or/3785620002/


So, not only was Burisma not under investigation at the time of the Biden call to oust Shokin, the call was made at the backing of and the behest of other allied nations, the IMF, and other concerned entities, not solely by the US via the Obama Administration and not soley by Biden...


One thing I have noticed about Trump, his minions and the Trumpettes as they try to foist their lie on the voters: there has not once been a single shred of evidence that Biden, or anyone else at the time, even brought up Burisma in the course of calling for Shokin's ouster, not even a demand Shokin halt any investigations into Burisma or Hunter Biden specifically. Considering the call(s) made by VP Biden were of an equally official nature as the call made by Trump, there must have been, as in Trump's case, others listening in either in the room with Biden or on extension lines; also, in keeping with the SOP used on those types of calls, and used on Trump;s call, there had to have been notes taken, summaries written, and, quite likely, either a full transcript or digest, as in the case of Trump's call. The documentation of the Biden call must still exist, either in the White House Executive archives, or those of the State Dept, the DNI, NSA, CIA, or any of the agencies and/or other entities that had either participated in the Biden call or who would have had need to access data/info from the interaction. But, interestingly, no one in the Trump camp has come forward with any of that documentation to prove their claims against Biden. Interesting point: don't you think that if there were transcripts or other evidence of the Biden call(s) that, in any way, backed up Trump's claim, they would have been shoved into the sweaty hands of Hannity and/or Fox News for dissemination?...

Trump's really pushing his "read the transcript" mantra, of late, so how's about this: let's also get a reading of the Biden transcript(s) and see if the claims are true or is this just another case of another addition to the collection of the thousands of Trump's bald-faced lies...


Speaking of transcripts, NPR, on 11/09/2019, published a transcript of the Whistleblower's Complaint and has annotated the text with corroborations of the various points in the complaint that have thus far been affirmed, as well as explanations of other issues in the text; if you click on the highlighted texts, dialog boxes will appear with the corroboration/explanation of that section of text:


The Whistleblower Complaint Has Largely Been Corroborated. Here's How --

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/09/77617...ated-heres-how







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[Mr Quatro]

So all of this impeachment talk by the Democrats is about the phone call Trump made and nothing about what happen after the phone call.

1. Ukraine got it's promised weapons worth more than $400 million usd and Trump got nothing

If the whistle blower had of waited a little longer they would have a much stronger case.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by vienna

Re: the Biden vs. Ukraine prosecutor: Biden was acting as the point man on the effort to oust Shokin, not just as a representative of the US Government, but, also, on behalf of the numerous nations who also wanted Shokin out; as in many cases involving joint US and allied nation's interests, the US took the lead, mainly because we have the biggest 'clout' of any single nation or any coalition of nations. Shokin's ouster was not because of any corruption investigations he was conducting; it was just the opposite: he was accused of turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to rampant corruption and doing nothing to address the problem,

<O>

Oh boy you and Dowly are too funny. That's not what Shokin himself had said in a written sworn statement. Contrary to what the illustrious folks at USA Today wrote. Shokin believes he was canned on account of his investigation into Burisma and the Bidens. Its my opinion Biden with the blessing of the administration forced him out because of Freedom, Democracy, anti-corruption... err wait I mean he was looking into the Bidens relationship with Bursima.

Then ol' Joe had the gall to brag about it.





Shokins statement

https://www.scribd.com/document/4276...ent#from_embed

keypoints





Mr. Quatro it seems to me it goes much deeper then just a phone call. Welcome to the swamp. First step was to brand Shokin (who was actually doing his job) as a useless stooge to get him out of the way and have him sacked. Next step is to impeach Trump. Problem goes away.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Mr. Quatro it seems to me it goes much deeper then just a phone call. Welcome to the swamp. First step was to brand Shokin (who was actually doing his job) as a useless stooge to get him out of the way and have him sacked. Next step is to impeach Trump. Problem goes away.

Your right Rockstar I just wanted to play with the big boys I'll go back to my Xbox One game:

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

So all of this impeachment talk by the Democrats is about the phone call Trump made and nothing about what happen after the phone call.

1. Ukraine got it's promised weapons worth more than $400 million usd and Trump got nothing

If the whistle blower had of waited a little longer they would have a much stronger case.

No, the impeachment hearings are about abuse of power and violation of the Constitution and, quite likely, various Federal laws. It's not just about the call; there are also the matters of obstruction of justice involving coercion of witnesses, subornation of perjury, and other related attempts to avoid taking responsibility for his actions; there are other abuses of power such as violation of the Emoluments Clause of the U Constitution, you know, the one Trump put his hand on a Bible and swore to preserve, protect, and defend, but that he has violated with utter disregard for either the Law or the responsibilities of his office. Then there are the campaign finance law violations, etc. He is in serious Bandini and, when he is out of office, he's going to have to wade through a lot more of his self-inflicted woes on stat and local levels...

...and, again, a crime does not have ti be fully completed to be an actual crime; intent, planning and the attempt at execution are all that is needed to prosecute a criminal act; if a burglar tries to enter your place and sets off an alarm just trying to get in a door or wind, even if he doesn't actually enter your premises and was unable to actually steal anything, he is still liable for prosecution for attempted burglary, attempted criminal trespass, and/or attempted attempted breaking ad entering; if a guy wants to have someone killed and sets in motion a plot by, say, soliciting a hit man, but the plot is foiled and the intended victim is unscathed, the guy who started the plot is still liable for prosecution for criminal conspiracy, solicitation of murder, and/or attempted murder, among other possible charges; the idea that there must be some sort of 'pay-off' to an intended crime in order fo it to be an actual crime is ludicrous and not borne out by letter law or case law; if your assertions were true, then, at there extreme a terrorist or mass shooter who planned and attempted an act of carnage but was found out and stopped just before actual execution would have as their defense "nothing happened" and be set free of charges; its just a plain silly defense and the sort of responsibility dodging seen when guilty criminals are desperately grasping at straws...


BTW, it should be noted Trump only released those funds after he was made aware his quid-pro-quo was mucho illegal and spelled mucho trouble for him...

...it was kinda like a thief who tries to claim innocence once he is caught and ties to claim he shouldn't be charged at all because he gve the loot back; judges and the law still don't look kindly of such pathetically weak ploys...


As far as the Whistleblower's case, he had a strong one the minute Trump said "I would like you to do us a favor though..."; that was the attempt at violating the law and abusing his powers...


Think of it this way: say you decide to ask your bully of a boss for a raise; you go into his office and say "Boss, I'd like to ask for a raise" and he replies "I would like you to do me a favor though..." and then gives you the particulars of the favor; do you not make the connection the implicit nature of his reply is your raise is connected to your execution of his wishes? Do you really think if you don't do the favor, you're still gonna get your raise?...


Quid pro quo: this for that...







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