Here we go again-Ukraine once again - Page 602

Skybird · 01-07-23, 08:25 AM

There is some criticism mounting on the latest decisions to deliver Bradleys, Marders and AMX-10s. Its being cautiously voiced, but it is there, and it is reasonable.

First, instead of agreeing on one system, now three totally different vehicles get delivered, each of which with their very own logistical supply chain, its own ammunitions, its own technical spare parts. And this additionally to a logistics system in Ukraine that is under enormous supply stress already now.

Second, both Marders and Bradleys are offsprings of a military doctrine that puts emphasis on the coordinated cooperation - "combined arms" - of MBTs and IFVs. These IFVs alone do not pose a signficant, relevant military threat to Russia with regards to offensive operation attempts by Ukraine. They simply lack the firepower, and their protection is such that they offer protection against other APCs and IFVs (the Marder still is said to be the most heavily armoured IFV there is), but you do not want them to get a full hit from an MBT. So, this move to deliver Marders and Bradleys: left to themselves this means nothing of real military relevance. For that these vehicles would need to be paired with Western MBTs.

So far there is just the announcement by the US. Training in Germany for the Marders has not even begun as well. 8 weeks it takes, they say.

What should, be done is that training begins immediately - both for the IFVs, and for Leopard-2A4s. The Leopards probably will arrive sooner or later - but rather later than sooner due to Bubble-Olaf once again braking, delaying, hesitating, wasting as much time as he can before pressur eon him becomes too much. Intentionally.

Shall we say: ETA Leopards next late autumn, when the war, so Scholz probably hopes, will be over?

Let this be clearly said and known in words. The hesiotation to set up tnaks and IFVs and early on so, has already costed many Ukrainian soldiers their lives who still could live today. Our political leaders already wade in blood they helped to shed by their indifference and hesitation.

Determination, dude. Determination.

I give nothing for recent phrases Macron and Scholz gave. Both do not mean what they say.

Rockstar · 01-07-23, 10:19 AM

Though still very capable, the Bradley is a legacy system, we are already testing competing designs such as the optionally manned vehicle. Meanwhile most Bradleys are in storage costing taxpayers heaps of money to store and maintain only for them to be later scrapped or given away in 10 or 15 years anyway. In the long run giving them to Ukraine now will save us money and Ukraine gets a tried and tested piece of superior firepower.

Quote:

In a now infamous off-the-cuff response to a critical question by a soldier in Iraq about the reason for the lack of adequate armor on military vehicles, former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld opined that “you go to war with the military you have – not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.”

That still still holds true for every single country in the world including Ukraine

Ostfriese · 01-07-23, 02:34 PM

No, Vladimir, we aren't freezing. How about you, though?

(10°C = 50°F; -27°C = -16.6°F)

Dargo · 01-07-23, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

No, Vladimir, we aren't freezing. How about you, though?

(10°C = 50°F; -27°C = -16.6°F)

Even the weather gods are trolling looser vlad.

Jimbuna · 01-07-23, 03:34 PM

Orbán said West has started new Cold War, so Hungary must maintain relations with its enemies

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbn believes that due to the crisis of the Western-centric order, which was allegedly highlighted by Russia’s war against Ukraine, the West has started a new Cold War, in which Budapest should stand aside, maintain relations with Western competitors and claim the role of regional leader.

As Censor.NET reports with reference to European Pravda, Orbán said this in a speech at the Christmas dinner of the Cella Kalman Foundation (Hungarian political figure of the late 19th and early 20th centuries), the thesis of which was presented by his political advisor Baláš Orbán in an article for Mandiner .

"Currently, it is clear that the biggest strategic challenge facing Hungary in the next decade is leaving the group of middle-income countries and catching up with developed countries, as well as achieving the status of a regional middle power in Central Europe," the article says.

According to the Hungarian prime minister, the neoliberal model of globalization is becoming a thing of the past, and as a result, the United States has new rivals - partly because the liberal model has allowed such states as China to strengthen.

Among the events that lead to the crisis of the neoliberal order, Orbán cites the migration crisis, Brexit, the victory of Donald Trump in the US presidential elections and the coronavirus pandemic.

"The beginning of the Ukrainian-Russian war in 2022, which made it clear that the current Western centrism cannot hold its ground, because the West's competitors have strengthened, not least because of the liberalization of trade and the economy," writes Balash Orban in the article .

In response, the West, led by the USA, according to the Prime Minister of Hungary, started a new "cold war" - a bloc confrontation between the West and its rivals. "It seems that the international blocs of the Cold War era are being revived", - this is how his adviser describes it.

The new world order in Orbán's view can be represented as a system of hierarchical networks in which all economic, political and cultural interactions pass through the leading states of the formed blocs. And this, he believes, is especially bad for Hungary, which has a negative historical experience of existence in the bloc confrontation.

"Therefore, the initial step of the Hungarian strategy of catch-up development is the development of a country-specific logic of globalization to overcome the negative consequences," Orbán claims, believing that such a strategy should be mediation between the West and the East and non-participation in a new "cold war".

In practice, this means that Budapest (within the system of hierarchical networks) should be in good relations with the states that are competitors of the West, dominated by the USA - because this way the marginalization of the country can be avoided.

As you know, since the beginning of the full-scale Russian aggression against Ukraine, Hungary has continued to maintain close ties with Russia and openly called for the review and relaxation of the European Union's sanctions against it, as well as developing relations with China and Iran, which the United States considers to be part of the "axis of evil." Source: https://censor.net/en/n3391846

vanjast · 01-07-23, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

If that poorly written and unsourced propaganda piece were even remotely true then the Ukrainians would not have an army left to fight with, let alone be able to take the offensive in Kherson and up north,

That right.. everyone is been fed lies by the media. some are more willing to believe them. There's plenty of info on the net..

The US , Chinese, Indian and Russian militaries are are working together on an operation that has covertly been going on for at least 5 years (planned over 50 years ago). Overtly now with Ukraine, which is the final phase.

They control all the media, so every one is fed a diet of the story they want you to hear/believe, and they've made Ukraine a 'death trap' for those that want to fight there.
How many more 'grainy' videos are we to see, as proof of things.

The Russians are not losing... they are winning by a very very large margin.
.. and all those promises of 'wonder weapons' to drive the Russians back to the pacific... is not happening.

It's all optics and gaffing on the screen in front of you.

Jimbuna · 01-07-23, 03:36 PM

Dargo · 01-07-23, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanjast

That right.. everyone is been fed lies by the media. some are more willing to believe them. There's plenty of info on the net..

The US , Chinese, Indian and Russian militaries are are working together on an operation that has covertly been going on for at least 5 years (planned over 50 years ago). Overtly now with Ukraine, which is the final phase.

They control all the media, so every one is fed a diet of the story they want you to hear/believe, and they've made Ukraine a 'death trap' for those that want to fight there.
How many more 'grainy' videos are we to see, as proof of things.

The Russians are not losing... they are winning by a very very large margin.
.. and all those promises of 'wonder weapons' to drive the Russians back to the pacific... is not happening.

It's all optics and gaffing on the screen in front of you.

You contradict yourself, do not say where but for the rest cool story братан

mapuc · 01-07-23, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanjast

The Russians are not losing... they are winning by a very very large margin.

Hmm now I wonder. If this is the case-Why is the war still going on for the 10th month soon to be the 11th month.

Markus

Dargo · 01-07-23, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Hmm now I wonder. If this is the case-Why is the war still going on for the 10th month soon to be the 11th month.

Markus

Ukraine continues to receive support from the West (arguably more should be given) and more importantly, they get more than the Russian military budget

Simply put: I’d rather be in Ukraine position than Russia.

Dargo · 01-07-23, 04:53 PM

The reality of War. A recent photo of a field showing Russian soldiers that took part in a failed attack in Bakhmut, East Ukraine. I hope it is grainy enough.

Skybird · 01-07-23, 05:02 PM

Russians ARE winning. They win the taste of their own blood in their mouth for generations to come. They win the taste of shame and disgrace for their atrocities and war crimes. They win the contempt and mistrust of the public. They win the reputation of being murderous, primitive barbars.

So Vanjast is right. Russians win all that, and they win lots and lots more of it with every day passing.

But they also lose something. For example, here in the West nobody fears them anymore, and nobody serious is afraid of the Russian military anymore.

Well, you get some, and you have to give some. So is life.

Dargo · 01-07-23, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Russians ARE winning. They win the taste of their own blood in their mouth for generations to come. They win the taste of shame and disgrace for their atrocities and war crimes. They win the contempt and mistrust of the public. They win the reputation of being murderous, primitive barbars.

So Vanjast is right. Russians win all that, and they win lots and lots more of it with every day passing.

But they also lose something. For example, here in the West nobody fears them anymore, and nobody serious is afraid of the Russian military anymore.

Well, you get some, and you have to give some. So is life.

Do not forget the gain of a big and growing high-tech Polish army at their border.

Dargo · 01-07-23, 05:22 PM

Report confirms Kuzmyne is in Ukrainian hands. It's the last settlement before Kreminna. I would expect tonight will be cold and full of artillery for the Russians, who no longer have clouds to cover their locations from IR detection. With the ground frozen, tanks can maneuver. https://twitter.com/TimInHonolulu/st...84252621991937

Skybird · 01-07-23, 06:44 PM

German industry said it has 180 Leopard-1 tanks ready and only awaits export permission.

Well. Wait longer, German industry. Der große Weltenlehrer in Berlin has different plans.

01-07-23, 08:25 AM	#9016
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,556 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	There is some criticism mounting on the latest decisions to deliver Bradleys, Marders and AMX-10s. Its being cautiously voiced, but it is there, and it is reasonable. First, instead of agreeing on one system, now three totally different vehicles get delivered, each of which with their very own logistical supply chain, its own ammunitions, its own technical spare parts. And this additionally to a logistics system in Ukraine that is under enormous supply stress already now. Second, both Marders and Bradleys are offsprings of a military doctrine that puts emphasis on the coordinated cooperation - "combined arms" - of MBTs and IFVs. These IFVs alone do not pose a signficant, relevant military threat to Russia with regards to offensive operation attempts by Ukraine. They simply lack the firepower, and their protection is such that they offer protection against other APCs and IFVs (the Marder still is said to be the most heavily armoured IFV there is), but you do not want them to get a full hit from an MBT. So, this move to deliver Marders and Bradleys: left to themselves this means nothing of real military relevance. For that these vehicles would need to be paired with Western MBTs. So far there is just the announcement by the US. Training in Germany for the Marders has not even begun as well. 8 weeks it takes, they say. What should, be done is that training begins immediately - both for the IFVs, and for Leopard-2A4s. The Leopards probably will arrive sooner or later - but rather later than sooner due to Bubble-Olaf once again braking, delaying, hesitating, wasting as much time as he can before pressur eon him becomes too much. Intentionally. Shall we say: ETA Leopards next late autumn, when the war, so Scholz probably hopes, will be over? Let this be clearly said and known in words. The hesiotation to set up tnaks and IFVs and early on so, has already costed many Ukrainian soldiers their lives who still could live today. Our political leaders already wade in blood they helped to shed by their indifference and hesitation. Determination, dude. Determination. I give nothing for recent phrases Macron and Scholz gave. Both do not mean what they say. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 01-07-23 at 08:34 AM.

01-07-23, 03:34 PM	#9020
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,344 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Orbán said West has started new Cold War, so Hungary must maintain relations with its enemies Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbn believes that due to the crisis of the Western-centric order, which was allegedly highlighted by Russia’s war against Ukraine, the West has started a new Cold War, in which Budapest should stand aside, maintain relations with Western competitors and claim the role of regional leader. As Censor.NET reports with reference to European Pravda, Orbán said this in a speech at the Christmas dinner of the Cella Kalman Foundation (Hungarian political figure of the late 19th and early 20th centuries), the thesis of which was presented by his political advisor Baláš Orbán in an article for Mandiner . "Currently, it is clear that the biggest strategic challenge facing Hungary in the next decade is leaving the group of middle-income countries and catching up with developed countries, as well as achieving the status of a regional middle power in Central Europe," the article says. According to the Hungarian prime minister, the neoliberal model of globalization is becoming a thing of the past, and as a result, the United States has new rivals - partly because the liberal model has allowed such states as China to strengthen. Among the events that lead to the crisis of the neoliberal order, Orbán cites the migration crisis, Brexit, the victory of Donald Trump in the US presidential elections and the coronavirus pandemic. "The beginning of the Ukrainian-Russian war in 2022, which made it clear that the current Western centrism cannot hold its ground, because the West's competitors have strengthened, not least because of the liberalization of trade and the economy," writes Balash Orban in the article . In response, the West, led by the USA, according to the Prime Minister of Hungary, started a new "cold war" - a bloc confrontation between the West and its rivals. "It seems that the international blocs of the Cold War era are being revived", - this is how his adviser describes it. The new world order in Orbán's view can be represented as a system of hierarchical networks in which all economic, political and cultural interactions pass through the leading states of the formed blocs. And this, he believes, is especially bad for Hungary, which has a negative historical experience of existence in the bloc confrontation. "Therefore, the initial step of the Hungarian strategy of catch-up development is the development of a country-specific logic of globalization to overcome the negative consequences," Orbán claims, believing that such a strategy should be mediation between the West and the East and non-participation in a new "cold war". In practice, this means that Budapest (within the system of hierarchical networks) should be in good relations with the states that are competitors of the West, dominated by the USA - because this way the marginalization of the country can be avoided. As you know, since the beginning of the full-scale Russian aggression against Ukraine, Hungary has continued to maintain close ties with Russia and openly called for the review and relaxation of the European Union's sanctions against it, as well as developing relations with China and Iran, which the United States considers to be part of the "axis of evil." Source: https://censor.net/en/n3391846 __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

01-07-23, 03:36 PM	#9022
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,344 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

01-07-23, 05:02 PM	#9027
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,556 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Russians ARE winning. They win the taste of their own blood in their mouth for generations to come. They win the taste of shame and disgrace for their atrocities and war crimes. They win the contempt and mistrust of the public. They win the reputation of being murderous, primitive barbars. So Vanjast is right. Russians win all that, and they win lots and lots more of it with every day passing. But they also lose something. For example, here in the West nobody fears them anymore, and nobody serious is afraid of the Russian military anymore. Well, you get some, and you have to give some. So is life. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-07-23, 06:44 PM	#9030
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,556 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	German industry said it has 180 Leopard-1 tanks ready and only awaits export permission. Well. Wait longer, German industry. Der große Weltenlehrer in Berlin has different plans. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-07-23, 02:34 PM	#9018
Ostfriese Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2004 Location: Northern Germany Posts: 1,174 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	No, Vladimir, we aren't freezing. How about you, though? (10°C = 50°F; -27°C = -16.6°F)