GWX4 (Grey Wolves eXpansion Mod)

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard spw

[Adriatico]

My dear Kpt.Lehman,

Long time ago... I tryied to warn you... that our loved SH3 is dead sim with obsolete graphics... and that latest GWX3.x was a wasting of time and energy... of gorgeous bunch of guys... and instead, that GWX4 should have started 6-8 months earlier...

Of course, who would listen "kidding Adriatico" when you have massive support of people who play in 1024x768 in year 2008, and their main concern is that next GWX is Graphic card friendly... so they won't upgrade their PC rig after 5 years...

Why I'm telling this?
... because I feel terribly sorry for a great GWX team, that devoted their nights, weeks and months to GWX4... in "radio silence" mod... and suddenly find themselves in reality... that half of planet is staring at brand new SH5.

...and average thread post - in some old simulation sites, has some 400-600 visitors overnight... while SH4 ATO mods of GWX has 3-6 people reading the news - at the same time period...
Long live the "radio silence development mode" - public relations strategy? ( ... it will be done - when it's done... project progress marketing ? )

Smart people learn from the past... please organize GWX5 project from the first demo of SH5, instead of GWX4.1... etc.

All faithful GWX members - feel free to unleash your heavy guns at me... I don't care.

Your great fan and admirerer,

Adriatico

P.S.

Excuse my English...

[henriksultan]

Originally Posted by Adriatico

Smart people learn from the past... please organize GWX5 project from the first demo of SH5, instead of GWX4.1... etc.

I do agree with you on this one, was a tad dissepointed that they didnt move over to SH4 since as you say SH3 (but still an great game that I do play) is outdated and the immersion could have been so great in SH4.

Not that I dont want a GWX for SH4 but with all the new stuff in SH5... go for it

[Reece]

It was a case really of waiting for all the patches to be released, then the U-boat add-on was advertised (with yet another patch) so there was another delay before it could be looked at, this gave them time to produce and finish GWX3, unfortunately with so many bugs to sort out in SH4 it has taken a very long time, plus the enthusiasm did not exist for SH4 as with SH3, so not as many people on the team, once again longer time period needed for the job.

[Task Force]

I hope they can easly port the stuff to sh5..

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Reece

plus the enthusiasm did not exist for SH4 as with SH3

I've noticed this myself and never completely understood why. Enthusiasm can be boosted up by showing or hinting at the things that can be achieved. The short "trailer" released on the GWX web site was a big enthusiasm booster. So, I must agree to most things that Adriatico said.
I really think if the GWX team did not take this "silent running" stance, maybe the post count of SH3 forums would have decreased to the advantage of the SH4 ATO forum. Look how much enthusiasm gathered the SH5 forum, just days after the announcement was made and more than half a year before release.
There's so much progress in the SH4 engine that I really cannot understand why it was so much ignored by the modding community.
Bottom line, I hope GWX 4 will still be released and I really want the GWX team to have their moment of glory. They deserve it, for all the work and passion they put in their projects.

[JScones]

It is my opinion that the GWX4 team's "silent running" approach is responsible for at least some of the low take up of SH4 (ATO - I'm *not* talking PTO here).

I mean, how many people have said "I'll wait for GWX4 before playing SH4"? If the subsim forums are anything to go by, quite a few. Me included.

Rather than engaging the community and "bringing them along for the ride" with regular communication, thus engendering both new ideas and a larger user base for the game to thrive on (let's be frank, had they done this I feel that *many* more people would be playing SH4 ATO now in anticipation), they introduced an element of trepedation and tentativeness - "should I, shouldn't I, maybe I should wait? Is development still going ahead?". Add to this the "we've finished working on GWX3, it's now GWX4 full steam ahead!" announcement only to be followed months later with a patch for GWX3 plus GWX3 mods from GWX4 team members, it's no wonder that players get confused, especially in the absence of effective communication.

I guess the expectation was that everyone would drop SH3 and take up SH4 as soon as GWX4 was released. Unfortunately though, apart from some obvious support issues with this approach, it's now unlikely that hordes of players will move from the comfortable, familiar and stable SH3/GWX environment to SH4/GWX4 when hopefully (and this is *no* slight on the GWX team) the far superior SH5 is just around the corner (my optimism is showing). I intend sticking with SH3/GWX3 until SH5 comes out, as learning SH4 now and having the hassle of iterations of GWX4 patches and bug fixes (my pragmatic side showing) is not worth it for what may be a period of less than 12 months. Especially when I know I will have to go through it all again with SH5.

Of course, I'm sure even the GWX team was not aware of the pending Ubisoft decision to move forward with SH5 development. To this end, Adriatico, I don't think any criticism can be levelled at the GWX team for timing. Hindsight has the great benefit of being 20/20. Unfortunate though, yes. Of GWX's doing, only partially. The only real comment around timing is whether the team should continue with full development or rescope now that SH5 has been officially announced. I guess Lehmann will have to consider the return on investment and make a decision. It would be a shame on various levels if GWX4 completely died though, but then, frankly, as the saying goes: "if a tree falls in the woods and no-one hears it, does it make a sound?". This is a very poignant point to dwell on, especially for those modders who have spent months in isolation, exclusion, and silence working on something that no-one really knows about, and may not get enough time to fully appreciate. Cold hard reality, and to this end sympathetic with your third para, Adriatico.

In any event, Lehmann needs to announce his intentions either way so that people who have been swaying can make a decision now, rather than stay in limbo. Regardless of what anyone may think, the announcement of SH5 far trumps GWX4, and as the SH5 announcement raises some very obvious and relevant questions for GWX4 followers, Lehmann has a responsibility to answer them. I'm sure if pride or a fear of failure is a concern for pulling the plug or rescoping to a more realistic/modest level, players will understand and won't mind at least if a clear decision is announced. Stubbornness though, is another matter.

Now let me stress, as I am mindful of the demonstrated defensiveness that occurs whenever something critical is said of GWX, I am not raising this to inflame, but raising it as hopefully something for *anyone* considering building a "supermod" for SH5 to ponder. Lehmann knows full well my views on successful marketing, so hopefully he will see this as constructive feedback rather than an attempt to incite a flamewar. Conversely, I'm not "backhanding" the work of the numerous modders that have made an attempt on SH4 ATO; reality is though that GWX3 has a huge fanbase and with the GWX4 carrot doing nothing more than dangling in the air, players will want to wait for a brand that has already gained a deserved reputation.

[Reece]

Yes I agree Jaesen, I understand why it is taking a long time but it would be nice to see a light at the end of the tunnel. So far we know absolutely nothing, a few snapshots, a report of bug fixes done etc would be nice.
So ..... come on guys, throw us a few crumbs .... please!

[JScones]

As they say Reece, "you reap what you sow". It's a bit hard to follow, share and embrace the GWX4 vision when frankly, we've never seen it. It may not even exist, we don't know. I think the current interest in the SH5 forum vs the interest in this forum is strong evidence of where people are now looking for strong vision and guidance...and based on the personal involvement and willingness of the SH5 devs to divulge what they can (rather than a dismissive "it will be ready when it's ready"), we seem to be getting it too.

There's a lesson there.

[Jimbuna]

<In a personal capacity>

Jaesen....I do appreciate you are not trying to 'inflame' or 'incite' any situation in your previous two posts. However you are clearly looking for a response so as a gesture of goodwill and courtesy and furthermore as a token of my friendship and goodeill to you and the community:

The current state of play regarding the development of GWX4 IMO currently hangs in the balance, but no more so than any other version of GWX at various stages in the past. I could go on further and say we may be at a crossrads.....do we abandon the project and work on SH5 post release or do we continue with the current project and release asap?

Any such discussion/debate if it were to take place would only happen if and when KL and team members requested it. THAT DISCUSSION IS NOT PLANNED NOR HAS THE IDEA BEEN MOOTED.

Whether we were aware of the SH5 announcement or not has absolutely no bearing on future developmental decisions that may or may not be necessary during the continual development process.

We have known for a while that SH5 was to be ATO and as such any assumption regarding potential improvements on the SH4 game engine were not unreasonable, nor avoidable.

Work on GWX4 is well underway and yes, we have come across some barriers, some have been overcome and others are currently being worked on.

That we are in a state of 'silent running' was announced a good while back for reasons that were clearly pointed out at the time of said announcement.

The most serious barrier as I type this is the drain on manpower/resources within the Dev Team as a result of RL committments.

These committments are varied but range from personal life changing to work related to a lenghty posting over in Afghanistan in the service of their country.

Those that are still available continue to give of their best until their friends return.

Everyone in this great community of ours hardly needs reminding that anyone related to The Grey Wolves does so voluntarily and as such works lengthy periods for no more pay than the simple satisfaction of knowing their work and committment brings a great deal of pleasure to a great many people.

The team are performing to the best of their ability whilst facing difficulties that far surpass anything I have ever witnessed them experiencing till now.

Now before you respond and suggest we are responsible for global warming or whatever.....We admit it, yes, we probably are.....but it was unintentional

I continue to oversee the development until KL is able to return to his substantive position.

We all learn lessons in life as each day passes, one of the many being 'you will never please all of the people all of the time'.

I sincerely hope you will interpret this post in the cordial spirit it is intended. It is not my intention to debate or enter into a lengthy exchange of hypothetical scenarios/possibilities because there is really nothing more I can add at this time.

Right now, I'm spending the weekend watching the climax to a cricket test series of some significance as well as savouring the SH5 announcement like so many others.

Respectfully
Jimbuna

[LiveGoat]

Whatever decision the GWXers make it can only be for the best. If they decide to pause till SH5 then the work they've done so far can only make them better prepared for the future. A warm up in the bullpen so to speak. That being said, I'm off to start yet another SH3 career. Oh, and Jimbuna, you know darn well they're responsible for for Global Warming. GWX3 is responsible for our prolonged computer/electricity use. Wait a minute... Global Warming... GW... X as in Xtinct civilization... It's a conspiracy!

[BulSoldier]

To me it seems that waiting for sh5 to be released and then the expected patches to come out will take quite some time.So it seems gwx 4 should continue.TO be honest i was excited with sh5 announcment and even sugested gwx team to wait for it , however now ,few days later, i feel that i am expecting gwx4 much more than sh5.I guess only time will tell what is to be.

[JU_88]

Jaeson mate,
Its not really too fair to put a simliar expection/example on a bunch of free lance modders as that of worlds 3rd largest Games developer - who are given a budget and salary to work on Silent Hunter 5 days a week + overtime

You were on the GWX team once so you know the score as well as anyone of us, we're a (now - rather small) handful of people doing this for fun, inbetween working full time, family & personal resposibilies... what Jim said above, etc.

In the grand scheme of things, this is just a ..... well a 'hobby' if you like.
With that in mind nobody really owes anyone a goddamn thing IMHO.
But having said that, its not like we dont give rats ass either, if that were so we would not be here anymore, period.
Of course between us, we dont want to let anyone here down, or indeed our selves.

I guess 'Silent running' is just a way of trying to 'get on with it' without distracting our selves too much with posting on forums etc, obviously the official annoucement of Sh5 is a pretty big distraction though

We dont mean to 'dangle carrots' either, more often that not i suppose 'its ready when its ready" just means we dont really know either - unfortunatley.
Im sure the teams intentions will be made clear eventually, but first we gotta figure out what they are for ourselves.....

We're doing our best though, honest!

[mookiemookie]

Thank you jimbuna and JU for sharing your thoughts. I too was kind of wondering what is going to happen going forward with GWX4 and even pondered with Neal a bit about it today at Captain Zeb's memorial service.

However you guys decide to proceed is up to you, and I wish you all the best and sincerely hope that work on GWX4 does continue. If we have a GWX4 before SH5's release, that would be great. If it comes post-SH5, that's fine too.

Fingers crossed, fellas!

[JScones]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

However you are clearly looking for a response...

Exactly, as, I suspect, are many others, so thank you. It seems you've provided more insight in your one post than what has been provided in the last six months.

Originally Posted by JU_88

Its not really too fair to put a simliar expection/example on a bunch of free lance modders as that of worlds 3rd largest Games developer...

I didn't think I did. Certainly not my intention. But if your comment is based on my comment about the personal involvement and willingness of the SH5 devs to divulge what they can (rather than a dismissive "it will be ready when it's ready"), then pls consider two things:

a) they are paid to develop software, not visit forums, much like you and I are paid to do a job. Thus their involvement here is on their own time, when they could be doing anything else, like spending time with their families. On the other hand, I'm sure you've browsed this forum on work time? I doubt their involvement here is a condition of employment and I'm sure most people see it as an honour that they share their free time with us. Although I'm certain that UBI management sees it as great PR and marketing, which it is.

b) look at jimbuna's post count here versus any of the devs. A clear indication that there is great capacity for the GWX4 team to provide informative and meaningful responses.

I won't comment on some of your other statements for as I said, it's not my intention to start a war here. I, like many other GWX followers, simply want to know what the state of play is. IMHO a simple request, and one that jimbuna has attempted to fill as best as he can.

Originally Posted by JU_88

We're doing our best though, honest!

And no-one is suggesting that those in the GWX4 engine room aren't. I cannot stress that enough. Hence my statement that "[i]t would be a shame on various levels if GWX4 completely died".

A part of my first post, not directed exclusively to the GWX team, I wanted to sow the seed for all current and future "supermodders" to consider the potential consequences of their communication plan. Interactive communication engenders interest, which engenders a potential pool of talent for the supermodders to draw upon when their own resources get thin and overstressed. As you say, modding is all done freely and out of love, so why make it hard on yourselves by not fostering and harnessing the love?

Again, thanks jimbuna.