GER politics thread

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ Ok thanks for answering, but for not being an anti-vaxxer you pick a strange point of view.

As I have said already it wasn't my point of view. I was just stating what I believed their feelings on the matter and you took that as being my own opinion. Was it just too realistic for you?

And yes, no one should be forced to be vaccinated in an ideal world, this is even common sense here. But what to do with anti vaxxers that threaten other people who want to be vaccinated, but are not yet for whatever external reason?

Well ideal world or not obviously you recommend that they be forced in some way since you think something must be done about them.

And most anti-vaxxers seem to be quite determined, or better aggressive, when it comes to discussion and reasons. It is very hard to remain calm towards some of those arguments and conspiracy theories offered in an often aggressive and very dumb way. A lot are opposing science for whatever reason. Thinking of Mrs Taylor Greene, but also a lot of such over here.

You claim its they that are being aggressively determined (apparently not to comply with your demands) and then you make veiled threats about the difficulty in remaining calm while opining that something be done with the refusniks? Seems like you're the one with the aggressiveness problem not them.

Also i understood you have had covid 19, and i mean to remember you somewhere wrote that you would not need to be vaccinated after this, which makes sense. So you got a jab after the infection?

Yes, I got the J&J shot about a month after I came down with the disease. As I said in the vaccination thread I got it because it was made known to me that my job would be in jeopardy unless I complied. They sweetened the deal with $250 bucks in bribe money but I made a judgement call based not on my own safety or my belief in the safety or effectiveness of it but rather for the continued well being of my family that depends on the money that I bring in.

"Ridiculous", well i saw a lot of he-who-shall-not-be-named supporters who embraced his first statement that the virus was not dangerous, or if not worse than the flu. He changed his mind, but it was a close thing. He of course made so many turnarounds in his presidential career that it is hard to nail any of his statements down without instantly finding another that contradicts it. He made a lot of followers that way.


So you say there is no danger that anti vaxxers ever came to power – good.. if you say so.

What makes you think President Donald J. Trump is an anti-vaxxer, did the leftist media tell you that? You do realize that President Donald J. Trump got the covid vaccine shot very early on after getting and surviving the disease as well. You make a lot of insinuations here with little or nothing to back it up. Is this any different than Faucis early statements that masks don't work or what he is telling people these days? He hasn't had much to say lately since those damning emails about his collusion to obscure covids ChiCom origins became public.

(a bit OT but not much: instead of admitting an error or someone of his cronies criticizing the president he and the right wing blame it all on "fake news" and science, and scientists like Fauci. Certainly, whoever dared to openly disagree with the greatest president of the USA or the chosen one or whatever he said about himself, was a "traitor" and fired. Fauci survived but he is still being blamed in the right-wing media. Must be my "german sense of order" that looks through all this bull and finds it ridiculous? So be it, the rest of the world also seems to have this sense then.)

"Science", especially bureaucrats like Fauci were wrong or reversed themselves so many times that anything they say just cannot be believed at all but you want me to blame Trump who was just repeating what he was being told by the so called experts? Amazing.

When President Donald J. Trump (sorry I just have to do that from now on to tease you over the "he-who-SHALL-not-be-named silliness), was banning travel from China and later Europe, was he being anti-science then? When his sainted opposition like Speaker Pelosi and Mayor Diblasio were telling people to come on down to Chinatown and that going out to lunch at a busy restaurant or taking a packed subway train was safe to do, Trump was appointing pandemic czars and talking about the dangers of the disease in his State of the Union address (that Democrat Pelosi dramatically tore up) who was following the science then?.
Given the constant attempts by the Democrats to derail his presidency at every turn it's a wonder he was able to get that much done but it's still way more than you claim.

So once more: What i mean is when e.g. the bubonic plague is raging, and people carrying the bacteria do not want to be vaccinated or isolated, they are a threat to the others that have not been vaccinated yet. Not yet because of too few doses of the vaccine available, because of organisation problems, because of delays, whatever.


So what do you say about those probably carrying the disease and their right and freedom not to be vaccinated? Quarantine them? Tell this to Mrs Greene. Freedom ends where it threatens the freedom of others. And their health.

What do I say about them? Nothing. You are the one who is trying to put people in Covid Concentration Camps for being unwilling to, as I put it, take a rushed into production, barely tested drug that they have absolutely no legal redress for if it turns out to be harmful, or for that matter, useless as has been reported in some cases already. In order to make your labored point you have to upgrade covid to the threat of a real killer disease like Bubonic Plague, (which BTW I have also been vaccinated against). That's just weak man.

If you are not vaccinated yet and you fear getting the disease from a Refusnik, your cat, or in any other way, then just stay home until it's your turn to get the shot. Very simple to do and something that people have already been doing for a whole year. You didn't seem to have a problem with it then. Maybe you do but you have to admit it would be much more effective and easier than trying to tear the nation apart by forcing it on everyone.

One final thought here bud. You're so concerned with those who refuse to get the vaccine but what about those where getting the shot will never be medically advisable for whatever reason? Are you going accept a doctors note in place of a vaccine card, especially when they start selling them online like they do Medical Marijuana cards? How do you intend to verify either shot record or doctors excuse note? These "Involuntary Refusniks" (to coin a term) whose welfare that you claim to be so concerned about, they will still be potential carriers. What do we do about them? Permanent quarantine? Mandatory vaccination regardless of health risk? The curious want to know!

[Catfish]

^ well this makes more sense than before
So it all is not your opinion, but what you believe are the refusniks' feelings (lol nice name b.t.w.). Yes i understand the instant urge to be against anything or anyone who wants to lecture me, even (or especially!) if that is obviously right.
Like putting a sign next to a lamp post with "You should not pee at this post", just wait what happens next.

But I do think something has to be done so the "refusniks" do no infect others, right, This is e.g. what a quarantine is for. If they do not see the necessity, if they do not understand, realize it, or just protest because they think democrats invented this virus hoax, screw them.
If people do not want to understand that robbing a bank, infecting others or generally hurt other people is not tolerated by law, in this case you put them into prison, and why the hell not? Because of THEIR freedom? What about mine? What about them hurting others?

Regarding aggressiveness i only remind you of anti vaxxer rallies and Taylor Greene, this is a) aggresssive and b) her sheer dumbness indeed gets on my nerves.

What makes you think President Donald J. Trump is an anti-vaxxer, did the leftist media tell you that

No, all media told me that, the left being concened, the right proud to be dumb.

"The anti-vaccine message may have found a particularly receptive audience among some fervent Trump supporters, many of whom flout wearing masks and contend the lethality of the virus is overblown.
"It's marketing at a basic sales level," said Imran Ahmed, CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate, which has analyzed the strategies of anti-vaccine advocates. "Conspiracism that allows you to connect anything together if you want to, because it doesn't require fact."
Contrary to the statements of vaccine critics, the two vaccines authorized for emergency use by the US Food and Drug Administration have been shown to be safe and effective."

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/04/p...nvs/index.html

Just read it, very good article of how things are, and why.

Of course Trump had to do something, to show leadership actively doing some.thing. Like forbidding travel or visits, how long do you think they would have let him in charge without him reacting to the pandemic? But he did it late and because (imho) he had to, not because of real insight. He never publicly supported the scientific "point of view" (what others call truth or at least a reasonable handling), which is why his followers still feel assured with their view that it was all a hoax and all those other conspiracy theories.

But then it does not matter what he said yesterday, or today, because a day later he said something contradicting all he said before, when it suited him. Supporters picking what suited them best and willingly ignored all else he said. But then this is how you get a majority, obviously.
He followed reason and science as long as it would get him supporters and would make him look better, it never was about "you" or "the people". When Trump felt threatened by Fauci's obvious degree of esteem in the media, he tried to block him.

"Science", especially bureaucrats like Fauci were wrong or reversed themselves so many times that anything they say just cannot be believed at all but you want me to blame Trump who was just repeating what he was being told by the so called experts? Amazing.

"The so-called experts"? like "Fauci was wrong"? "Bureaucrats like Fauci", you might even say unelected bureaucrats, like Farage? Fauci is an intelligent man, believing in reason and science, dedicated to his lifelong cause of protecting, inventing vaccines and understanding diseases to fight them. Painting him as a "traitor" and a "bureaucrat" because he cares more for people than for politics and the economy, can really only be thought out by the lowest proponents of mankind.

You are the one who is trying to put people in Covid Concentration Camps for being unwilling to, as I put it, take a rushed into production, barely tested drug that they have absolutely no legal redress for if it turns out to be harmful, or for that matter, useless as has been reported in some cases already.

No i am not the one wanting to put them into c. camps, this is an invention of your fantasy. Godwin much? I said they should have been put in quarantine or fined, not concentration camps. The rest, just wow.

If you are not vaccinated yet and you fear getting the disease from a Refusnik, your cat, or in any other way, then just stay home until it's your turn to get the shot. [...] you have to admit it would be much more effective and easier than trying to tear the nation apart by forcing it on everyone.

Wasn't it expresident Trump who tore up the nation? Why didn't he support wearing masks for all, why did he try to play down the pandemic as "the flu" which will be "gone in summer"? Why was he constantly trying to arouse people of all sides against each other?
And, one moment: I did stay at home. Your Trump supporters did not, they made rallies into villages, organised multispreader events and behaved like uneducated children just to show.. what? How FREE they are?
Trump wanted to reopen the economy asap, and no one was forced to stay at home, instead all deniers were FREE to walk around. What do you want to say? So you tell me i was right and they were wrong? Fine.

Why does anyone here or in the US have to "accept a doctor's not[e] in place of a vaccine card"?
Huh? We get vaccine cards here, indeed there are vaccine passes for all if they bother to have one. Most do.
So there is an illegal black market for vaccine fake cards or passes. Must be the fault of the democrats? Fauci? The EU?

[Rockstar]

Hey look someone is discussing U.S. politics in the German political thread again.

[Catfish]

"Germany orders maritime patrols for 1.1 billion euros"
Google translation:
https://translate.google.com/transla...c-4659fb5da9d8

[Skybird]

Second order US companies sacked from European customers this week. A few days ago the Swiss have decided against the Rafael, Hornet and Eurofighter and inf aovur of the F-35 as a replacement for their aging air force flying stuff. The Europeans are very angry, thats why I like it. Not only is the data infradstrriuctiure of the F-35 more advanced than that of the other three - but it was also the cheapest offer, cheaper than th Eurofighter, the Swiss say. Who would have thought that!


The F/A-18 is still in the race as a replacement for the Tornado as a carrier of nuclear Germany-stored US bombs, however. But resistence from the Bundestag and even more: the French, is very robust.



The French. Once again...



Recently I read that the new French-German-Spanish fighter development will be hopelessly outdated already on the day it gets delivered, and that the French know it but want to milk German budgets to finance their won financial industry problems with that German money, thats why they push the project. The cooperation between the manfucaturers of the French MBTs and the German Leopard also favour French interest for transfer of know-how.



I really have started wishing there would be fra less indiustrial copperaiuton between Germany and France. The past holds some lessons on these kind of projects, and often they did not ran nice for Germany.



The whole German procurement bureaucracy of the Bundeswehr is described to be a desaster.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Just read it, very good article of how things are, and why.

I won't bother Dude. That's CNN. They have deliberately lied about Trump so many times that I just couldn't believe anything they said about him.

Doctor Fauci is a bureaucrat, that's what directors are, bureaucrats. I see him as anything but a saint. He engaged in a coverup of covids origins and funded ChiCom biological warfare research being done at the very lab where the outbreak occurred, which kinda explains his coverup efforts.

He never publicly supported the scientific "point of view" (what others call truth or at least a reasonable handling), which is why his followers still feel assured with their view that it was all a hoax and all those other conspiracy theories.

That's just not true Catfish. Trump ramped up production of ventilators, got two Navy hospital ships refitted, built temporary hospitals in nearly every major city and pushed the development of the anti-covid vaccines, all on the advice of scientists. We would not have those vaccines now if it weren't for Donald Trump but fake media like CNN and their democrat masters will never acknowledge that because to do so would be just another example how hollow their anti-Trump lies have always been and illustrate yet again just how far they will go to regain power.

From day one Trumps presidency was under siege and it continues even today with the politically motivated investigations in new york state.

When Trump felt threatened by Fauci's obvious degree of esteem in the media, he tried to block him.

More lies. He could easily have fired Fauci if he wanted to block him.

like "Fauci was wrong"? "Bureaucrats like Fauci", you might even say unelected bureaucrats, like Farage? Fauci is an intelligent man, believing in reason and science, dedicated to his lifelong cause of protecting, inventing vaccines and understanding diseases to fight them. Painting him as a "traitor" and a "bureaucrat" because he cares more for people than for politics and the economy, can really only be thought out by the lowest proponents of mankind.

Kiss the bureaucrats butt if you wish but you'll have to avoid the truth...

Fauci wrote: "Masks are really for infected people to prevent them from spreading infection to people who are not infected rather than protecting uninfected people from acquiring infection. The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you."
He added: "I do not recommend that you wear a mask, particularly since you are going to a very low risk location."

Fauci said that in February 2020 the same time that Trump the science hater was banning travel from the epicenter of the outbreak and talking about the dangers of the disease in his state of the union address that the Democrats were so quick to tear up.

No i am not the one wanting to put them into c. camps, this is an invention of your fantasy. Godwin much? I said they should have been put in quarantine or fined, not concentration camps.

Oh really its all my imagination, I see. Just a harmless quarantine you say, nothing to worry about, but what if the Refusniks refuse to quarantine? I would refuse if I were them.

To pursue the policy you suggest they are going to have to physically incarcerate these people in some way. When that happens are you going to hide behind godwin then?

The rest, just wow.
Wasn't it expresident Trump who tore up the nation?

Nope, that's rank democrat propaganda. His political opposition have done far more to put Americans against each other than Trump would do in a dozen presidencies, and they continue to do so now that he is gone.

Why didn't he support wearing masks for all, why did he try to play down the pandemic as "the flu" which will be "gone in summer"? Why was he constantly trying to arouse people of all sides against each other?

Trump wasn't doing anything that his enemies weren't already doing. As I recall the Dems were organizing mass protests against him starting on his inauguration day and they continue turning half the country against the other now that he is out of office.

And, one moment: I did stay at home.

Well I didn't stay at home. Being in the Telecom industry I was considered an essential worker and so forced to work all through this pandemic. Over the past year I have worked at hundreds of job sites in several US states.

Your Trump supporters did not, they made rallies into villages, organised multispreader events and behaved like uneducated children just to show.. what? How FREE they are?
Trump wanted to reopen the economy asap, and no one was forced to stay at home, instead all deniers were FREE to walk around. What do you want to say? So you tell me i was right and they were wrong? Fine.

I remember there were plenty of unsubstantiated claims that Trump rallies were superspreader events but these were from the same people who claimed that BLM riots, err i mean "mostly peaceful protests" were not.

Why does anyone here or in the US have to "accept a doctor's not[e] in place of a vaccine card"?
Huh? We get vaccine cards here, indeed there are vaccine passes for all if they bother to have one. Most do.
So there is an illegal black market for vaccine fake cards or passes. Must be the fault of the democrats? Fauci? The EU?

You misunderstood what I said.

What I was asking is what kind of card or proof will these OTHER unvaccinated people, you know the ones that you are willing to incarcerate, erm excuse me "quarantine", a goodly portion of my vaccine hating fellow citizens in order to protect? What else besides a doctors note would they have to carry or display in order to prove that they should be allowed to walk around unprotected among the vaccinated.

But why should exceptions even be made in the first place? After all they are unvaccinated right? So regardless of the reason however reasonable, they are still potential unknowing carriers of the covid disease. That means you will still have to quarantine them regardless of what you do to the Refusniks. Think about that. In this light does it make sense to quarrantine half the country instead of those few people?

[Catfish]

I'd love to see evidence of what you claim, because for me this is the usual Fox news lies parroting.

You misunderstood what I said.
What I was asking is what kind of card or proof will these OTHER unvaccinated people, you know the ones that you are willing to incarcerate, erm excuse me "quarantine", a goodly portion of my vaccine hating fellow citizens in order to protect?

I admit i don't understand what you write. The unvaccinated have their normal vaccine card only with the covid shots missing on them. If some general anti vaxxers have ever been vaccinated, and have a card at all, their problem. I take it most have a card, most want to be vaccinated, just have not yet.

Anyone who gets covid will have to self-quarantine. If they do not and continue to try to infect others, indeed put them into forced quarantine/hospital until they die or get over it. If the latter happens, sue them right afterwards for dangerous negligence or whatever is the term.

You cannot force people to be reasonable (especially not with the Fox and qanon indoctrination), you can force no one to get vaccinated of course. But if anti vaxxers die it is their problem. If they infect others, what do you propose? Just let them do it?
And if all the rest is vaccinated i have no problem with that, let the deniers walk around and infect themselves, and suffer and die if they want. But as long as the rest is not through with vaccination, what do YOU propose?

...allowed to walk around unprotected among the vaccinated [...] they [unvaccinated] are still potential unknowing carriers of the covid disease [...]

Exactly, so do you have an idea or solution?

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I'd love to see evidence of what you claim, because for me this is the usual Fox news lies parroting.
I admit i don't understand what you write. The unvaccinated have their normal vaccine card only with the covid shots missing on them. If some general anti vaxxers have ever been vaccinated, and have a card at all, their problem. I take it most have a card, most want to be vaccinated, just have not yet.

In my country people don't walk around with a vaccine card but forget it. I give up trying to make you understand.

Anyone who gets covid will have to self-quarantine. If they do not and continue to try to infect others, indeed put them into forced quarantine/hospital until they die or get over it. If the latter happens, sue them right afterwards for dangerous negligence or whatever is the term.

Sue , I see. And how will you know that any particular person gave it to you? Your idea is completely unworkable.

You cannot force people to be reasonable (especially not with the Fox and qanon indoctrination)

Just couldn't resist eh?

, you can force no one to get vaccinated of course. But if anti vaxxers die it is their problem. If they infect others, what do you propose? Just let them do it? And if all the rest is vaccinated i have no problem with that, let the deniers walk around and infect themselves, and suffer and die if they want.

Yes, just let them do it I say, because I am not willing to live in a fascist society where everyone has to show their papers to some government minder just to walk out their own front door. That might the German way but not here in the good old USofA, at least not yet.

But as long as the rest is not through with vaccination, what do YOU propose?

Exactly, so do you have an idea or solution?

I believe I have given you a perfectly valid solution several times but you have repeatedly ignored it. So let me repeat myself one last time: If you are one of the dwindling number of people that hasn't got the vaccine yet then either stay home and self quarantine until you do get it or go out and take your chances.

[Catfish]

Ok seems i misunderstood you - still when the last willing "vaxer" has got his jab at last and assumed they will all stay at home voluntarily until then, what do you do with the intentionally anti vaxxers? I take it it is not a problem when those make up 3 percent of the population, but what if there are 30 percent or more?

There are now around 54 percent of the population vaccinated in the US, how much are waiting to get a jab and how much will prefer to oppose it, by whatever reason?

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Ok seems i misunderstood you - still when the last willing "vaxer" has got his jab at last and assumed they will all stay at home voluntarily until then, what do you do with the intentionally anti vaxxers?


I take it it is not a problem when those make up 3 percent of the population, but what if there are 30 percent or more

There are now around 54 percent of the population vaccinated in the US, how much are waiting to get a jab and how much will prefer to oppose it, by whatever reason?

It won't still be 54 percent when, as you said in your first paragraph, every willing "vaxer" has already got his jab, but even if it was it makes no difference, either way everyone who wanted the jab will have gotten it. So who are you trying to protect?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Second order US companies sacked from European customers this week. A few days ago the Swiss have decided against the Rafael, Hornet and Eurofighter and inf aovur of the F-35 as a replacement for their aging air force flying stuff. The Europeans are very angry, thats why I like it. Not only is the data infradstrriuctiure of the F-35 more advanced than that of the other three - but it was also the cheapest offer, cheaper than th Eurofighter, the Swiss say. Who would have thought that!


The F/A-18 is still in the race as a replacement for the Tornado as a carrier of nuclear Germany-stored US bombs, however. But resistence from the Bundestag and even more: the French, is very robust.

The French. Once again...



Recently I read that the new French-German-Spanish fighter development will be hopelessly outdated already on the day it gets delivered, and that the French know it but want to milk German budgets to finance their won financial industry problems with that German money, thats why they push the project. The cooperation between the manfucaturers of the French MBTs and the German Leopard also favour French interest for transfer of know-how.



I really have started wishing there would be fra less indiustrial copperaiuton between Germany and France. The past holds some lessons on these kind of projects, and often they did not ran nice for Germany.



The whole German procurement bureaucracy of the Bundeswehr is described to be a desaster.

[Catfish]

This channel is really trying paint the EU in the worst possible way, with arousing nationalist feelings using ridiculous exaggeration. "Well done" from an academic point of view, apart from this primitive and lowest niveau

[mapuc]

Yesterday I read a story, a story I have read before.

It's about a Danish politician, Dan Jørgensen, in EU-Parliament.

He is fighting for the animal rights. He wanted a ban on very long animal transport from Denmark/Sweden and other EU countries in the north to South Europe or Turkey.

The EU commission demanded 1 million signatures from x different countries in EU. He manage to get it, he got these 1 million signatures from X different countries. He gave these signatures to EU commission...who...just reject it. From what I remember he tried 4-5 times without success.

Only people who has something to say is leaders in big companies and they can talk directly to the head of EU.

Today they have made some regulation on animal transport, but it's not enough though.

Markus

[Catfish]

Bad outcome, if this is true. Do you have a link?
I do not quite believe this, too, maybe there is a formal fault in the petition?

But do you think there would have been even a try about such without the EU? With single nationalist governments only caring for their shortsighted individual views

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Bad outcome, if this is true. Do you have a link?
I do not quite believe this, too, maybe there is a formal fault in the petition?

But do you think there would have been even a try about such without the EU? With single nationalist governments only caring for their shortsighted individual views

Found an English article

http://animalwelfareandtrade.com/ani...ance-transport

This article is about Dan Jørgensens 1 million signatures and how the animal is transported.

Can't find any article who describe how EU reject these 1 million signatures.

I found a Danish article Hope you can use google translate

https://sn.dk/Danmark/Dansk-EU-parla...artikel/340714

Markus