[WIP] IRAI (Intelligent Random AI) - Page 52

janh · 09-16-10, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin40

It looks somewhat easy to escape using the correct strategy

At what time, i.e. state of british equipment and training?
1939? Or 1943? If you escape with comparable ease in 39, 40 or 41, this would sound quite reasonable.

Robin40 · 09-16-10, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janh

At what time, i.e. state of british equipment and training?
1939? Or 1943? If you escape with comparable ease in 39, 40 or 41, this would sound quite reasonable.

October 1940

Zedi · 09-16-10, 05:27 AM

Problem is not with the escaping tactics, but with the tactics used by the AI. As I said, is completely unnatural and wrong how the convoy escorts are reacting now in IRAI. Leaving the convoy unescorted and even halt it for 2 days or more just to hunt a single sub is unacceptable.

In MP this would give a huge advantage for the players just because is enough that 1 player will distract the escorts then the others will just sink the whole convoy without any problem.

The stock AI tactic is oke, what it need to be fixed there is just the contact depth and the DC's. They loose the track of any sub under 80m and they cannot drop DC's under 50m. Even so, the DC's do almost no damage. That's the problem now with the stock AI, nothing else.

Ah.. and of course, for campaign is a must have the Elite Campaign mod installed. Just because the devs made the SH5 campaign retard friendly, so every ship in the campaign is set to novice and to use evasive manoeuvres, what makes them to not react at all to any threat .. just flee

DavyJonesFootlocker · 09-16-10, 06:53 AM

This is true. Crippled ships are left behind instead of leaving the rest as sitting ducks.

TheDarkWraith · 09-16-10, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavyJonesFootlocker

This is true. Crippled ships are left behind instead of leaving the rest as sitting ducks.

Are you saying that the current version of IRAI doesn't leave them behind? The whole convoy slows down for the slowest unit? I can see this for the leader but it does this for ship's other than the leader?

Also Magnum was stating that all the escorts leave the convoy...ALL the escorts leave the convoy?? Some are assigned the role of guard convoy and should stay with the convoy UNLESS you are inside the convoy. That is the only time escorts assigned the role of guard convoy are allowed to 'break rank'.

I'm still really confused as to what some people are finding so wrong with the current version of IRAI

Feedback in the form of starting the AI debugger and telling me what tactics are set, not set, etc. would really help me figure out if there is something wrong with the current version or not.

DavyJonesFootlocker · 09-16-10, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Are you saying that the current version of IRAI doesn't leave them behind? The whole convoy slows down for the slowest unit? I can see this for the leader but it does this for ship's other than the leader?

No, I'm stating that this is what happened in WW2 (DDs leaving them) and refering to the way in the game the dds linger too long looking for you and leaving the convoy unprotected.

Robin40 · 09-16-10, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavyJonesFootlocker

No, I'm stating that this is what happened in WW2 (DDs leaving them) and refering to the way in the game the dds linger too long looking for you and leaving the convoy unprotected.

In my 2 last occasions when I sank BC Renown and Hood, 9 DD's went hunting me for 3 and 6 hours, then they left me behind

Convoy was escorted with 2 remaining DD's

laribe · 09-16-10, 09:39 AM

I suppose the simple way to explain it is that some escorts stay with convoy, ie close escort. In suspected attack areas you would have the Hk group ie support group roaming if one or other got a contact, True or False they would attack.

If there was no HK group near the close escort would cover the convoy as it made an escape, Hopefully. If there was a HK group with the convoy they would attack and the rest would beat feet at best speed.

DCs were not really very effectve as they had to be very close to do damage so escorts tended to drop quite a few on suspected targets

To my mind in .25 the tactics seem right but the DDs drop DCs on the first run and none on the second run. If a DC explodes on the DD, which happens every time, the others seem to take time to recover and re-attack, they know you are there but do not seem to attack. As I have only tried Historic missions of late I cant say about campaign. I can get debug to run but what do I look for?

TheDarkWraith · 09-16-10, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laribe

I can get debug to run but what do I look for?

see here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=733

Zedi · 09-16-10, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Are you saying that the current version of IRAI doesn't leave them behind? The whole convoy slows down for the slowest unit? I can see this for the leader but it does this for ship's other than the leader?

Also Magnum was stating that all the escorts leave the convoy...ALL the escorts leave the convoy?? Some are assigned the role of guard convoy and should stay with the convoy UNLESS you are inside the convoy. That is the only time escorts assigned the role of guard convoy are allowed to 'break rank'.

I'm still really confused as to what some people are finding so wrong with the current version of IRAI

Feedback in the form of starting the AI debugger and telling me what tactics are set, not set, etc. would really help me figure out if there is something wrong with the current version or not.

I try to explain again. The escorts strategy is the main problem, they leave the convoy unprotected just to hunt a single sub for days. 2 bad that I forgot to make a screenie about these 8 escorts camping me for 2 days while the rest of the merchants were sitting 5km away and waiting for them to finish me off. This is just wrong

2 or 3 escort ship is just enough for a single sub, is no need for a whole fleet to keep a sub underwater. Also, their main role should be to keep the sub away from the convoy, not delay the convoy from their schedule. To bring the cargo at the destination should be the main priority, not hunting a solo sub in the middle of Atlantic while a whole nation is in major distress

An yes, all escorts left the convoy behind to hunt me down. True, one of them was just sitting silent a bit away from the rest of the escorts, seems like he was the commander. But the rest of the convoy were completely stooped about 5-8km further waiting for the escort group to come back in position. Not to mention that the escorts consumed their ammo in just few hours, still they were just passing over and over above me for days. Absolutely pointless strategy for an escort group. If this were made by a dedicated KH group, I would have no objection as this is their role, hunt the sub no matter what. But a large convoy with vital cargo for a whole nation in war stooping in the middle of Atlantic and hunt a single sub for 2 days.. it's just impossible to accept. I will put back IRAI on and if it happens again, I will post images just to prove my words.

TheDarkWraith · 09-16-10, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum

I try to explain again. The escorts strategy is the main problem, they leave the convoy unprotected just to hunt a single sub for days. 2 bad that I forgot to make a screenie about these 8 escorts camping me for 2 days while the rest of the merchants were sitting 5km away and waiting for them to finish me off. This is just wrong

2 or 3 escort ship is just enough for a single sub, is no need for a whole fleet to keep a sub underwater. Also, their main role should be to keep the sub away from the convoy, not delay the convoy from their schedule. To bring the cargo at the destination should be the main priority, not hunting a solo sub in the middle of Atlantic while a whole nation is in major distress

An yes, all escorts left the convoy behind to hunt me down. True, one of them was just sitting silent a bit away from the rest of the escorts, seems like he was the commander. But the rest of the convoy were completely stooped about 5-8km further waiting for the escort group to come back in position. Not to mention that the escorts consumed their ammo in just few hours, still they were just passing over and over above me for days. Absolutely pointless strategy for an escort group. If this were made by a dedicated KH group, I would have no objection as this is their role, hunt the sub no matter what. But a large convoy with vital cargo for a whole nation in war stooping in the middle of Atlantic and hunt a single sub for 2 days.. it's just impossible to accept. I will put back IRAI on and if it happens again, I will post images just to prove my words.

this situation I really need some feedback from the AI debugger as to who was the commander (a merchant or a warship), what the roles of each ship were, what tactic was set, etc. This will greatly help me figure out what is going on.

7thSeal · 09-16-10, 05:40 PM

TDW, one thing I've noticed during the evolving of your mod is that you only test during single missions available or one that's been setup. I highly encourage you to try a campaign and post your results from the start and on... I believe that alot of whats mentioned is from campaign playing. Anyways, hope this leads to some answers.

Zedi · 09-17-10, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7thSeal

TDW, one thing I've noticed during the evolving of your mod is that you only test during single missions available or one that's been setup. I highly encourage you to try a campaign and post your results from the start and on... I believe that alot of whats mentioned is from campaign playing. Anyways, hope this leads to some answers.

Ditto. My stories are from HT campaign. Is a major difference between single missions and campaign. In campaign the strategy used by the AI should be simple. There is 2 major groups of military ships: escort and HK. Each one need to have their own strategy.

Escort main role is to.. escort/protect. If a sub is detected, only 1 or max. 3 DD should engage the enemy (depend on the convoy and escort size), the rest stay on course with the convoy and protect it. Is kinda absurd to have all escorts leaving the convoy to hunt down a single contact. When the convoy is at safe distance, they return to their normal course. So, the main goal for escort is to deliver the cargo in time and keep the enemy at distance.

HK. This is a different story as they main role is to hunt &kill. If they detect a enemy contact, they should spend all their energy and resources to finish him off, no matter how much this will take. This group should be the nightmare of every sub/player. This could be a major problem in the campaign with those stupid requirements where we need to sink BB's and carriers.. but lets say, is a nice challenge.

Btw, I installed again IRAI and last night I had some weird but fun moments. First was an unprotected small convoy with 6 merchants in NE Atlantic. Hard to explain why there were unprotected, but they were a very easy prey. On first hit all they do was to slow down to 1knts. No zig-zag, no change course.. just slow down. So I took my time and sunk all of them 1 by 1. This is again wrong.. they should speed up or at least zig-zag, not just slow down and wait to be destroyed ...

Second encounter was with a small convoy with 2 merchants and 2 troop transport. This encounter was just perfect. After I sunk 2 ships, only 1 from the 4 escorts came over to hunt me. And hell yeah.. he was damn good. He shacked my boat very bad, made a LOT of damage on the sub.. lucky me, I managed to fool him by playin dead at 220m, so he left and returned to the convoy. Just perfect!

The last encounter was pure epic, something I never saw in any SH version so far. Just got out from base for a new patrol when I spotted a pretty large german convoy. The surprise was that 4 airplane were fly by and they engaged the convoy! My jaws drooped for what happened next.... I'm so sorry that I had no fraps or something to film this down, was a hell of the show. The escorts and the merchants, all were open fire and there was a epic battle with the sky red from how many shells were shot out (this happened at night without moon or any light source, so the shells were very visible). The planes were damn smart, also the ships.. so it turned out into a very long battle, more than 30 minutes. The planes managed to sink 2 ships and damage badly other 3, the convoy downed 3 airplanes. Sadly had no chance to see how it ends because sudden without any warning my game crashed.. not sure why.

Anyway, I was VERY impressed .. I never thought that this can happen in SH, this is just epic. TDW sir, you did a hell of the job on this mod

If you can work out the strategy and make a difference between the escorts and HK groups, this mod will be just perfect! A big THANK YOU for all your hard work!

tonschk · 09-17-10, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum

A big THANK YOU for all your hard work!

I Agree

TheDarkWraith · 09-17-10, 02:32 AM

I made the tactics for individual units, convoys, and for HK groups. That's why I'm puzzled when you say that all escorts leave the convoy sometimes. IRAI is so dynamic that it's very hard to debug statically - I need feedback from the AI debugger when you encounter these situations that you feel are strange or not right. It could be that the convoy really is only a convoy of merchants with another HK group escorting it. That would explain all escorts 'leaving' the convoy. I'm not sure how the campaign assigns convoys and HK groups. This is where feedback from the AI debugger would be very helpful. If there are two commanders found in a single convoy then it could possibly denote a merchant convoy being escorted by an HK convoy. In that situation then IRAI is working just as it should be.

09-16-10, 06:53 AM	#769
DavyJonesFootlocker The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stink Drunk in Trinidad Posts: 1,572 Downloads: 138 Uploads: 0	This is true. Crippled ships are left behind instead of leaving the rest as sitting ducks. __________________ "Silence means death. Stand on your feet. Inner fear your worst enemy."- Sepultura. My Silent Hunter 5 mantra is this......"Torpedo missed, sir!" A P-400 is a P-40 with a Zero after it. A proud member of the Wikipedia Haters Club

09-16-10, 05:27 AM	#768
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	Problem is not with the escaping tactics, but with the tactics used by the AI. As I said, is completely unnatural and wrong how the convoy escorts are reacting now in IRAI. Leaving the convoy unescorted and even halt it for 2 days or more just to hunt a single sub is unacceptable. In MP this would give a huge advantage for the players just because is enough that 1 player will distract the escorts then the others will just sink the whole convoy without any problem. The stock AI tactic is oke, what it need to be fixed there is just the contact depth and the DC's. They loose the track of any sub under 80m and they cannot drop DC's under 50m. Even so, the DC's do almost no damage. That's the problem now with the stock AI, nothing else. Ah.. and of course, for campaign is a must have the Elite Campaign mod installed. Just because the devs made the SH5 campaign retard friendly, so every ship in the campaign is set to novice and to use evasive manoeuvres, what makes them to not react at all to any threat .. just flee

09-16-10, 09:39 AM	#773
laribe Watch Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 25 Downloads: 192 Uploads: 0	I suppose the simple way to explain it is that some escorts stay with convoy, ie close escort. In suspected attack areas you would have the Hk group ie support group roaming if one or other got a contact, True or False they would attack. If there was no HK group near the close escort would cover the convoy as it made an escape, Hopefully. If there was a HK group with the convoy they would attack and the rest would beat feet at best speed. DCs were not really very effectve as they had to be very close to do damage so escorts tended to drop quite a few on suspected targets To my mind in .25 the tactics seem right but the DDs drop DCs on the first run and none on the second run. If a DC explodes on the DD, which happens every time, the others seem to take time to recover and re-attack, they know you are there but do not seem to attack. As I have only tried Historic missions of late I cant say about campaign. I can get debug to run but what do I look for?

09-16-10, 05:40 PM	#777
7thSeal Samurai Navy Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 592 Downloads: 199 Uploads: 0	TDW, one thing I've noticed during the evolving of your mod is that you only test during single missions available or one that's been setup. I highly encourage you to try a campaign and post your results from the start and on... I believe that alot of whats mentioned is from campaign playing. Anyways, hope this leads to some answers.

09-17-10, 02:32 AM	#780
TheDarkWraith Black Magic Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,962 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 5	I made the tactics for individual units, convoys, and for HK groups. That's why I'm puzzled when you say that all escorts leave the convoy sometimes. IRAI is so dynamic that it's very hard to debug statically - I need feedback from the AI debugger when you encounter these situations that you feel are strange or not right. It could be that the convoy really is only a convoy of merchants with another HK group escorting it. That would explain all escorts 'leaving' the convoy. I'm not sure how the campaign assigns convoys and HK groups. This is where feedback from the AI debugger would be very helpful. If there are two commanders found in a single convoy then it could possibly denote a merchant convoy being escorted by an HK convoy. In that situation then IRAI is working just as it should be.