US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[skidman]

Originally Posted by JU_88

yes, you are right in that is its intent, but 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' repeatedly what does that idea amount to when taken to the extremes??

Maybe, but who wants to take it to the extremes? It's just your idée fixe, driven by a fear of a communist nightmare. Your projection, your problem.

Then assert its not about making society truley equal, well then what is it for? to make it more equal? Ok -and if thats not subjectivley equal enough then where do you go next? Answer me that.

That's simple: To stabilize a system that is broken by design, because it favors those who are already privileged. And it's easy to determine the level of equality needed: It is reached when enough people wake up in the morning thinking. "OK, lets go to work to make a decent living, raise my children, take the chances our society has to offer," rather than: "Let's have a revolution, we are going nowhere."

Case and point, Im not talking about a few mild socialist polices. That's not what the current 'social justice activist' wants is it?

Well you think they want to kill the rich and that is utter BS. Today social justice must be discussed in a new context, because turbo capitalism and globalization erode the middle class. Western democratic societies were based on a simple promise: Work hard and your economic situation will improve and your children will benefit. And this promise is not kept anymore. Everybody can see that a very small group has completely separated themselves from the rest. The crucial point is: Almost all governments are too stricken with fear to do something about it.

But there is no point to go on with this, because you are a label man: You put labels on things that are so big they hide the things they are sticking to.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Skybird's is in red which is, in itself, a political statement??!!

Originally Posted by Skybird

Solved.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by skidman

Maybe, but who wants to take it to the extremes? It's just your idée fixe, driven by a fear of a communist nightmare. Your projection, your problem.



That's simple: To stabilize a system that is broken by design, because it favors those who are already privileged. And it's easy to determine the level of equality needed: It is reached when enough people wake up in the morning thinking. "OK, lets go to work to make a decent living, raise my children, take the chances our society has to offer," rather than: "Let's have a revolution, we are going nowhere."



Well you think they want to kill the rich and that is utter BS. Today social justice must be discussed in a new context, because turbo capitalism and globalization erode the middle class. Western democratic societies were based on a simple promise: Work hard and your economic situation will improve and your children will benefit. And this promise is not kept anymore. Everybody can see that a very small group has completely separated themselves from the rest. The crucial point is: Almost all governments are too stricken with fear to do something about it.

But there is no point to go on with this, because you are a label man: You put labels on things that are so big they hide the things they are sticking to.

1) its always a loud fanatical minority who want to take things to the extremes, a silent/fearful/apathetic majority enable it.


2) I will agree the system is very broken indeed, (much like your chosen politcal narrative) 'social Justice' in a neo marxist/ identitarian format is absolutley not going to offer any workable solution, it only creates division and resentment.


3) You're right, there probably is no point, I probably dont have much to learn form a person right who off the bat - calls me 'dumb' for expressing my views, yet I am the 'lable man' here?, Interesting.


PS, here is some of that 'social justice' in action and the immdediate consequence of it.

Some radical Left wing middle class white kids trashing a black neighbourhood, the KKK would be proud.

(profanity warning) Enjoy.

[skidman]

Originally Posted by JU_88

1) its always a loud fanatical minority who want to take things to the extremes, a silent/fearful/apathetic majority enable it.

Not in a Western democracy. The majority rules. And -believe it or not- in a to some extent developed, to some extent educated society the majority tends to vote for security (unemployment insurance, public health care, pension schemes), opportunities for advancement, a welfare state that helps to prevent the poor burn your house down and a economic model that holds benefits for many not just few. The majority usually votes for at least a minimum of social justice.

2) I will agree the system is very broken indeed, (much like your chosen politcal narrative) 'social Justice' in a neo marxist/ identitarian format is absolutley not going to offer any workable solution, it only creates division and resentment.

But if you don't want neo marxism and I don't want neo marxism (which is obviously a philosophical idea, not a form of governance, right?) what are we disagreeing on? Obviously my conception of an ideal state is much more on the left side than yours. So be it, as long as we can settle on civil liberties, a constitutional democracy, equal rights for men, women, blacks, whites, etc., and social justice is a perfect additive to keep up such an entity.

3) You're right, there probably is no point, I probably dont have much to learn form a person right who off the bat - calls me 'dumb' for expressing my views, yet I am the 'lable man' here?, Interesting.

In your first post you referred to social justice as a essential feature of different flavors of autocratic dictatorship. Furthermore you stated that social justice usually is achieved by killing those, who are not equal (but privileged). Both statements are not just wrong, they reveal a fatal deficit of understanding of not only the basic mechanisms of despotism, one-party-states and social darwinism, but in addition which political measures and regulatives are described by the term "social justice". So I called those statements dumb and I stick to my opinion.

I did not want to get personal when I called you a label man, but looking at your posts my observation is this: You tend to use extreme, offensive wording when judging other peoples views. You like to hit quite hard. When it comes to taking hits you are obviously much more delicate.

[Skybird]

The rioters keep on to rot in certain cities. What these suckers do not seem to understand is that each of them qualifies for ranks and medals in Trump's hand-selected top front troop of most effective election helpers.



Claiming to prpotest against Trump, but doping one'S bestz that he gets relected. That certainly makes sense.


If you are nuts, at least.

[mapuc]

If Trump Wins a second term I could say to my friends

And WHY did he win ?
Or
WHY did he loose

Markus

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by skidman

(Entire Previous Post)

I was only pointing out that where ever identitarian Social Justice has gained enough support and momentum -that more unjustified human suffering is the innevitable outcome once it peaks, but if you want to give me some historical example where it didnt lead to that, feel free.
Im not talking about examples where it set out to target equality of opportunity & civil rights for those lacking them, but where its stated goal was clearly forced equity (equal out come by any means nessecary) and of course, revenge.

Was I too offensive? or were you over defensive? we could argue about that for an eternity, its too easy for me to accuse you of the same behavior. .....But I can concede that perhaps it was abit of both.
Anyway, politically we are probably not such worlds apart - and I do agree with 'some' of your points. You can be on the Left or right of the spectrum and not be afraid to recognise the faultlines within that faction / ideology, because they are all flawed. Left and Right need each other, to keep each other in check, because unchecked they will both rapidly descend in to echo chamber madness and cause misery for a good portion of any given population.
You identify as being on the left, fine, so long as you are honest and realistic enough to acknowledge the Left is every bit as capable of Good AND Evil as the Right is, (it just depends who is leading them and to where). I have no quarrel with you really.

As for your slightly passive aggressive & baity closing line, I'll let it go - or our continous petty back and forth will contiue to bore the other members here. Aside from that, i respect most of your opinions.

[mapuc]

This is our US Politics thread.

From following JU_88 and skidman discussion

I can't help wondering.

Is there a perfect ideology/society system ?

Maybe on paper...
If we add the human behavior into the equation how perfect would it be then ?

Markus

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by mapuc

This is our US Politics thread.

From following JU_88 and skidman discussion

I can't help wondering.

Is there a perfect ideology/society system ?

Maybe on paper...
If we add the human behavior into the equation how perfect would it be then ?

Markus

One word, No. Not for human beings at least. And people who think there is scare me :P

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Originally Posted by mapuc

This is our US Politics thread.

From following JU_88 and skidman discussion

I can't help wondering.

Is there a perfect ideology/society system ?

Maybe on paper...
If we add the human behavior into the equation how perfect would it be then ?

Markus

Sadly and frankly no, there never is nor will be because to people there really isn't such a thing a "perfect", what might be perfect for some would be a nightmare for others and vice versa. Short of all religious, cultural, political, racial and any other sort of differences people have suddenly vanished over night and all of humanity was able to start fresh nothing will change. The wheel turns and the same spoke will come around again it's just a matter of where and when. I think the closest humanity came to a perfect society was the communist theory of Marx where everyone was equal, there would be no classes, no rich or poor, everyone would share everything. It sounded good on paper. In the end it was hijacked by Lenin and Stalin and we know how that turned out.

[Mr Quatro]

Right now (September 6th 2020) is a good time for the super rich and even the high end rich and maybe not so good for the middle and lower end rich.

They have many tax cuts from Trump to be able to sit on their money until the stock market makes another run up.

They buy low and sell high so a up and down stock market really is a thing of beauty for the men and women able to invest and trade at a moments notice.

The middle class in America are taking the blunt of a slowed down economy with or without a job ... without a job they have to cash in on their 401k's and draw from their megar savings waiting for an up swing.

But oh the poor the lower end for them it's pay the rent or hit the street. The first three months were protected by stimulus payments and unemployment payments to the tune of $600 a week. Most of those protesters and rioters in May and June and July were making more money not working than they did when they had jobs.

Another stimulus check will be in the mail by mid October just in time for the election beer to flow (after the polls close of course).

It's the multitudes of poor and that can turn the tide for the democrats if they blame Trump for the virus instead of China and an open/loose society that invited social breathing on one another.

The problem should be blamed on society with each state at blame for how they handled the crisis.

The numbers are in the hands of the democrats for Joe Biden to be the next President of the United States, but I believe that a bombshell of the Obama era will come out in the coming weeks that will take Joe Biden down with him allowing President Trump to retain his hold on the WH.

What happens after that will be more rhetoric and finger pointing at the Russians and blame on Trump for stonewalling on the mail in vote and possibly more impeachment talk resulting in more of a circus for Washington.

I think I know what's going to happen, but first lets see if Trump wins in November

[skidman]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Was I too offensive? or were you over defensive? we could argue about that for an eternity, its too easy for me to accuse you of the same behavior. .....But I can concede that perhaps it was abit of both.
Anyway, politically we are probably not such worlds apart - and I do agree with 'some' of your points. You can be on the Left or right of the spectrum and not be afraid to recognise the faultlines within that faction / ideology, because they are all flawed. Left and Right need each other, to keep each other in check, because unchecked they will both rapidly descend in to echo chamber madness and cause misery for a good portion of any given population.

Some wise words. I'd like to express my respect, because you've shown that controversies do not have to exceed a acceptable limit and reminded me, that usually it's better to find things to agree on than trying to be right. A lesson learned. Thank you.

[Onkel Neal]

Type antifa.com in your browser....

wow!

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Type antifa.com in your browser....

wow!

before I do? Did the FBI kick you door in? (Since they are cracking down on them now)
Edit: ok I did it. Er.. Wow indeed.



Yeah ok, Well that Trump Landslide is coming, Its going to be like our last UK election but on steroids.

e.g will be a near one policy issue, ours was Brexit, yours will be the on going Civil unrest.


(My own speculation)

Swing voters will overlook all of Trumps faults, if they think his re election will give him a mandate to quell the riots at a federal level,
they will not end as long as the DA's in most of the effected states keep letting many of the rioters off without charge.
Id wager there will be some big flare ups again post trumps re-election, and that would be the tipping point where they eventually get shut down (hopefully without the insurrection act button being pushed) and the jails start filling up. If Biden were to win, a trickle of violence would like likley continue (become the new normal). he will ignore it. then the worry is that those on the right will mobilise to take matters in to their own hands - and then it really gets ugly. So for all innvolved I hope Law enforcement handles it, always better for jails to fill up than cemetries.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Type antifa.com in your browser.... wow!

It already did that a few times before in august. You know that most probably some Trump followers did that to turn the tide against Biden, and that it is a hoax?

"There is zero indication that the Biden/Harris campaign has had anything to do with this website redirect.": https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2...-campaign.html

edit: oh it seems Russia is behind it, who would have thought ?

But again, it does not matter if it helps Trump. Nothing matters.