9/11 The Aftermath

mapuc · 09-12-20, 04:29 PM

An important information before I continue with my thread-This IS not an discussion about the terrorist attack 9 Sept. 2001.

Earlier today I saw a clip from some peace conference in Afghanistan..

What have we actually archived after 9/11 and the war on terrorist ?

What have we archived in Afghanistan ?

What have we archived in Iraq ?

Looking in the historical mirror a question pops up:

Should our leader have acted otherwise ?

Markus

Platapus · 09-12-20, 04:56 PM

Hindsight is 20/20

It is important to base our historical analysis on what was known at the time.

Skybird · 09-12-20, 07:07 PM

The afghanistan war must be rated as another sobering experience, for the US, but also for the Europeans. It costed an awful lot of money, and has not achieved lasting changes of strategic values or to the civil society of Afghanistan.

And now? The Taleban negotiate their way back to power, while never having offered apologies for the barbaric brutality they showed and terrorised the country with when they were in full control. I fear very, very much that the small changes that have happened for the better, sooner or later will be completely eradicated again. The taleban have not stoppd to be conservative Muslim. Different to the Iraq war, I can understand theUS reaction towards Afghanistan, the way they tried to fight the war in the early years was naive a bit, but that they struck at afghanistan after 9/11 is understandable. I never criticised the US for Afghanistan, only questioned the choosen ways. They got Mullah Omar and Osama Bin Laden. But as I see it, more they have not won from it.

Different it is for the Europeans, namely the Germans. Why we went there, has always been a mystery to me, we achieved nothing, and after we got under attack, form that time on we just defended ourselves and for that completely isolated ourselves from the afghan population and society which to "protect" we claimed to have gone there; we had hilarious, ridiculous, naive rules of engagement, and lacked seriously in military logistical and combat capabilities and existentially depended on the Americans for medivac, air support, and various Asian and Kazachian and Russian airforces and railways for our supply transportation, because we cannot support our troops at that distance by our own logistical means. That alone should have switched on a red light stopping us form going there. How arroigant miust one be to send one'S army to a palce that is beyiond reahc for own supply systems and that make the troops highly vulnerable for the good will of third countries with in parts highly dubious reputation? Maybe it was the bad conscience because the terrorists that struck on 9/11 were planning and preparing their attack in safety in Germany, namely Hamburg.

As much as I can understand the Americans, as much I have zero understanding for us Germans going there. A huge miscalculation. And ye,s one coukld have known it in advance. The military warned of it. The politicians, this elite of Marvel's league of superheroes, thougth they knew it better ocne again. Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten! Even these already are too much for us nowadays.

The Americans going to Afghanistan is understandable. Their methods were in parts questionable, naive, over-optimistic. The germans going there was simply stupid and showed once again a certain typical German overestimation of our own capabilities. In other words: we took the mouth too full, and even lied to ourselves about the fact that it was a war we embarked into. For years in our political debates it was seriously denied to be a war!

Jimbuna · 09-13-20, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Hindsight is 20/20

It is important to base our historical analysis on what was known at the time.

Agreed

vienna · 09-13-20, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Agreed

I'll let you know if I agree when I look back twenty years from now...

<O>

Skybird · 09-13-20, 05:43 AM

I disagree with Platapus if he puts it the way he did. Historical analysis must - necessarily and unavoidably! - base on the present of the analyst's own time to explain what what went good and what went wrong and why. But, and I think that is what Platapus wanted to say, we must of course also consider how things looked like from perspective of those living in the past and during past events. I must however object to letting the latter completely replace the first. And as already said, it also is impossible to see past things only from past perspectives. We cannot, even if we want, because we do not share past people's perspectives and canot just get the present out of our minds. Also, what we think past people'S perspectives were, not so much is always secured knowledge of ours, but just our assumptions. Even historic events we cannot be certain of to have happened as we describe them nowadays in history books. Just look for example how fundamentally the narration on the Roman-Germanic battle in the Teutoburger Forest has changed, and how we have changed our tale on the later Roman reaction, and even the battlefield'S location we had to move in past years!

Of course it is also totally wrong to ignore past contexts and only judge things by present standards, like certain lobby groups and extremist special interest groups try to enforce today.

I think of history as an academic branch as just the attempt to reflect on the past in as much an objective way as is possible for us. Always knowing that objectivity cannot be reached in total completeness.

mapuc · 09-13-20, 11:34 AM

Thank you for your input.

I should have mentioned in my first post, that it's not my intention to point fingers and claiming I would have done it otherwise if I was in charge.

Far from it.

Denmark lost 38 soldiers in Afghanistan
and
lost 8 soldiers in Iraq.

What I ask myself is:
did these Danish soldiers die in vain?

Markus

Bilge_Rat · 09-14-20, 03:16 PM

Hindsight is always 20/20.

-after the murder of 2,977 innocent civilians by the largest terrorist attack on american soil, it was clear the U.S. would be gunning for UBL and the rest of Al Qaida.

-the Afghanistan invasion was a foregone conclusion from the time the Taliban leadership started stalling on giving up UBL.

-what went wrong in Afghanistan was changing the focus of the mission from eradicating UBL/Al Qaida to "nation building". From the beginning, it was clear no one in the West would ever put in the funds and troops required to turn Afghanistan into a functioning democracy with a functioning semi-industrialized economy. The numbers and men required were astronomical and no western electorate would ever agree to it, so from the start, the "nation building" was done on the cheap and was doomed to fail. We should have cut our losses and left years ago.

-The Iraq invasion was a msiatke for the same reasons as in Afghanistan.

Was it worth it? probably not. OTOH, the U.S. thaught the ROW an important lesson. If you harbor or have ties to a terrorist organization that kills U.S. civilians, no one will protect you from the U.S. military.

Rockstar · 09-14-20, 06:19 PM

Nothing went wrong. When you think of Afghanistan, think militarization of national policy since WWII and Carter Doctrine.

Don't fool yourself, it doesn't matter who the president is or what political party he represents. We aren't leaving Iraq OR Afghanistan.

Sean C · 09-15-20, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Don't fool yourself, it doesn't matter who the president is or what political party he represents. We aren't leaving Iraq OR Afghanistan.

We have the snake by the tail ... as it were.

mapuc · 09-15-20, 05:27 PM

There are well payed personal working in Pentagon who is trying to solve these problems-what went wrong in Afghanistan, Iraq and maybe Syria.

I must say the aftermath seems to be more overwhelming than I thought. I was only concentrating on Afghanistan and Iraq.
I was never near Libya or Syria.

Bilge_Rat wrote something which made me remember a discussion I had with a friend some years ago..Around the time when this peace talk in Afghanistan was mentioned first time.

1. Have a clear objective of what your goals are before you go in;
2. Have a realistic assessment of what can be achieved;
3. Have a clear exit strategy.

Mine was different.
1. What is the purpose for the invasion of the country?
2. Do NOT make friends with the opposition or fractions !
(They will take advantage of you and bake their own cake)
3. Are you willing to pay the price needed to fulfill the goal of the invasion ?

Markus

Rockstar · 09-15-20, 07:32 PM

News flash, we've been in Afghanistan since 1979

1st Goal: destabilize Soviet - Afghan relations.

2nd: strengthen U.S. - Afghan relations.

3rd: protect those relations.

Unlike previous empires we do not colonize other countries as I believe that would mean the host is no longer a sovereign. Which leads us to the 4th goal: we establish military bases instead.

There is no doubt 9/11 was a terrible tragedy. But in the big picture that event was just a flash in the pan of time, one day out of tens of thousands in U.S. foreign relations and policy. It made for a damn good reason to take advantage of said event to project U.S. military power and firmly establish ourselves in that region. We are there to stay, even Biden has said he will keep troops there. But like I said this isn't a president or party decision this is well established doctrine. Its been shown, just recently I might add, that a president who says or thinks otherwise will be publicly ostracized by his generals, the media, corporate & military industry. And of course the ever loyal party hacks who being sheep just follow the party line.

Platapus · 09-15-20, 05:25 AM

The British learned not to get involved in AF
The Soviets/Russians learned not to get involved in AF
The US has learned not to get involved in AF

I wonder which will be the next nation who thinks that they will be different this time?

Skybird · 09-15-20, 07:47 AM

Just the hysterical romanticists - the Germans - still cry about lost chances and talk of not giving up things and would want to stay (if only they could by their own means, but fact is that they could not: when the US completely pulls out, the Germans and other Europeans will/must follow. So, I would say the Germans have still not learned the lesson.

vienna · 09-15-20, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Nothing went wrong. When you think of Afghanistan, think militarization of national policy since WWII and Carter Doctrine.

Don't fool yourself, it doesn't matter who the president is or what political party he represents. We aren't leaving Iraq OR Afghanistan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

The British learned not to get involved in AF
The Soviets/Russians learned not to get involved in AF
The US has learned not to get involved in AF

I wonder which will be the next nation who thinks that they will be different this time?

Someone once called AF 'the place where civilizations go to die'; a brief history of a long history:

Why Is Afghanistan the ‘Graveyard of Empires’? --

https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/why-...rd-of-empires/

<O>

09-12-20, 04:29 PM	#1
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,888 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	9/11 The Aftermath An important information before I continue with my thread-This IS not an discussion about the terrorist attack 9 Sept. 2001. Earlier today I saw a clip from some peace conference in Afghanistan.. What have we actually archived after 9/11 and the war on terrorist ? What have we archived in Afghanistan ? What have we archived in Iraq ? Looking in the historical mirror a question pops up: Should our leader have acted otherwise ? Markus

09-12-20, 04:56 PM	#2
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,951 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Hindsight is 20/20 It is important to base our historical analysis on what was known at the time. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

09-12-20, 07:07 PM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,498 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	The afghanistan war must be rated as another sobering experience, for the US, but also for the Europeans. It costed an awful lot of money, and has not achieved lasting changes of strategic values or to the civil society of Afghanistan. And now? The Taleban negotiate their way back to power, while never having offered apologies for the barbaric brutality they showed and terrorised the country with when they were in full control. I fear very, very much that the small changes that have happened for the better, sooner or later will be completely eradicated again. The taleban have not stoppd to be conservative Muslim. Different to the Iraq war, I can understand theUS reaction towards Afghanistan, the way they tried to fight the war in the early years was naive a bit, but that they struck at afghanistan after 9/11 is understandable. I never criticised the US for Afghanistan, only questioned the choosen ways. They got Mullah Omar and Osama Bin Laden. But as I see it, more they have not won from it. Different it is for the Europeans, namely the Germans. Why we went there, has always been a mystery to me, we achieved nothing, and after we got under attack, form that time on we just defended ourselves and for that completely isolated ourselves from the afghan population and society which to "protect" we claimed to have gone there; we had hilarious, ridiculous, naive rules of engagement, and lacked seriously in military logistical and combat capabilities and existentially depended on the Americans for medivac, air support, and various Asian and Kazachian and Russian airforces and railways for our supply transportation, because we cannot support our troops at that distance by our own logistical means. That alone should have switched on a red light stopping us form going there. How arroigant miust one be to send one'S army to a palce that is beyiond reahc for own supply systems and that make the troops highly vulnerable for the good will of third countries with in parts highly dubious reputation? Maybe it was the bad conscience because the terrorists that struck on 9/11 were planning and preparing their attack in safety in Germany, namely Hamburg. As much as I can understand the Americans, as much I have zero understanding for us Germans going there. A huge miscalculation. And ye,s one coukld have known it in advance. The military warned of it. The politicians, this elite of Marvel's league of superheroes, thougth they knew it better ocne again. Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten! Even these already are too much for us nowadays. The Americans going to Afghanistan is understandable. Their methods were in parts questionable, naive, over-optimistic. The germans going there was simply stupid and showed once again a certain typical German overestimation of our own capabilities. In other words: we took the mouth too full, and even lied to ourselves about the fact that it was a war we embarked into. For years in our political debates it was seriously denied to be a war! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-13-20, 05:43 AM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,498 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	I disagree with Platapus if he puts it the way he did. Historical analysis must - necessarily and unavoidably! - base on the present of the analyst's own time to explain what what went good and what went wrong and why. But, and I think that is what Platapus wanted to say, we must of course also consider how things looked like from perspective of those living in the past and during past events. I must however object to letting the latter completely replace the first. And as already said, it also is impossible to see past things only from past perspectives. We cannot, even if we want, because we do not share past people's perspectives and canot just get the present out of our minds. Also, what we think past people'S perspectives were, not so much is always secured knowledge of ours, but just our assumptions. Even historic events we cannot be certain of to have happened as we describe them nowadays in history books. Just look for example how fundamentally the narration on the Roman-Germanic battle in the Teutoburger Forest has changed, and how we have changed our tale on the later Roman reaction, and even the battlefield'S location we had to move in past years! Of course it is also totally wrong to ignore past contexts and only judge things by present standards, like certain lobby groups and extremist special interest groups try to enforce today. I think of history as an academic branch as just the attempt to reflect on the past in as much an objective way as is possible for us. Always knowing that objectivity cannot be reached in total completeness. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-14-20, 03:16 PM	#8
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,793 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	Hindsight is always 20/20. -after the murder of 2,977 innocent civilians by the largest terrorist attack on american soil, it was clear the U.S. would be gunning for UBL and the rest of Al Qaida. -the Afghanistan invasion was a foregone conclusion from the time the Taliban leadership started stalling on giving up UBL. -what went wrong in Afghanistan was changing the focus of the mission from eradicating UBL/Al Qaida to "nation building". From the beginning, it was clear no one in the West would ever put in the funds and troops required to turn Afghanistan into a functioning democracy with a functioning semi-industrialized economy. The numbers and men required were astronomical and no western electorate would ever agree to it, so from the start, the "nation building" was done on the cheap and was doomed to fail. We should have cut our losses and left years ago. -The Iraq invasion was a msiatke for the same reasons as in Afghanistan. Was it worth it? probably not. OTOH, the U.S. thaught the ROW an important lesson. If you harbor or have ties to a terrorist organization that kills U.S. civilians, no one will protect you from the U.S. military. __________________

09-13-20, 11:34 AM	#7
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,888 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Thank you for your input. I should have mentioned in my first post, that it's not my intention to point fingers and claiming I would have done it otherwise if I was in charge. Far from it. Denmark lost 38 soldiers in Afghanistan and lost 8 soldiers in Iraq. What I ask myself is: did these Danish soldiers die in vain? Markus

09-14-20, 06:19 PM	#9
Rockstar Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 11,833 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Nothing went wrong. When you think of Afghanistan, think militarization of national policy since WWII and Carter Doctrine. Don't fool yourself, it doesn't matter who the president is or what political party he represents. We aren't leaving Iraq OR Afghanistan. __________________ Guardian of the honey and nuts Let's assume I'm right, it'll save time.

09-15-20, 05:27 PM	#11
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,888 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	There are well payed personal working in Pentagon who is trying to solve these problems-what went wrong in Afghanistan, Iraq and maybe Syria. I must say the aftermath seems to be more overwhelming than I thought. I was only concentrating on Afghanistan and Iraq. I was never near Libya or Syria. Bilge_Rat wrote something which made me remember a discussion I had with a friend some years ago..Around the time when this peace talk in Afghanistan was mentioned first time. 1. Have a clear objective of what your goals are before you go in; 2. Have a realistic assessment of what can be achieved; 3. Have a clear exit strategy. Mine was different. 1. What is the purpose for the invasion of the country? 2. Do NOT make friends with the opposition or fractions ! (They will take advantage of you and bake their own cake) 3. Are you willing to pay the price needed to fulfill the goal of the invasion ? Markus

09-15-20, 07:32 PM	#12
Rockstar Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 11,833 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	News flash, we've been in Afghanistan since 1979 1st Goal: destabilize Soviet - Afghan relations. 2nd: strengthen U.S. - Afghan relations. 3rd: protect those relations. Unlike previous empires we do not colonize other countries as I believe that would mean the host is no longer a sovereign. Which leads us to the 4th goal: we establish military bases instead. There is no doubt 9/11 was a terrible tragedy. But in the big picture that event was just a flash in the pan of time, one day out of tens of thousands in U.S. foreign relations and policy. It made for a damn good reason to take advantage of said event to project U.S. military power and firmly establish ourselves in that region. We are there to stay, even Biden has said he will keep troops there. But like I said this isn't a president or party decision this is well established doctrine. Its been shown, just recently I might add, that a president who says or thinks otherwise will be publicly ostracized by his generals, the media, corporate & military industry. And of course the ever loyal party hacks who being sheep just follow the party line. __________________ Guardian of the honey and nuts Let's assume I'm right, it'll save time. Last edited by Rockstar; 09-16-20 at 10:40 AM.

09-15-20, 05:25 AM	#13
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,951 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	The British learned not to get involved in AF The Soviets/Russians learned not to get involved in AF The US has learned not to get involved in AF I wonder which will be the next nation who thinks that they will be different this time? __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

09-15-20, 07:47 AM	#14
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,498 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Just the hysterical romanticists - the Germans - still cry about lost chances and talk of not giving up things and would want to stay (if only they could by their own means, but fact is that they could not: when the US completely pulls out, the Germans and other Europeans will/must follow. So, I would say the Germans have still not learned the lesson. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.