A few questions regarding submarines

EFileTahi-A · 01-02-09, 06:04 AM

I'm coding a futuristic turn based submarine war game and I need to understand some basic features of nowadays subware.

Please note that some questions might look (or are indeed) dumb, give me a discount will ya?

1 - How fast can a nowadays military sub ascend and descend?

2 - Maximum depth of military subs / maximum depth ever recorded (Cientific piloted subs included).

3 - I understand that electrolysis and special equipment is required to produce air. But what if this life support system fails. Do they imediately need to surface or they also store air in pressurized tanks?

4 - Does depth influences in any way the speed of torpedos or their ability to work? (at very deep depths)

5 - Does depth influences in any way the sonar's efficiency?

6 - Is there any restriction or different behaviour on submarines when in extreme deep depths, i.e. do subs operate the same way dispiting the depth they are?

Thank you for any possible info.

AntEater · 01-02-09, 07:06 AM

I'll answer some I know

2. Since Trieste was in US navy service, you can say the maximum depth of a military sub is 10,500 meters.
The woods hole submersibles (Alvin etc) can go around 6000 meters or so.
However, maximum realistic depth for a combat submarine was the russian Komsomolets with around 1500 meters.
Normally today's SSNs operate above 300 meters.

3. In larger submarines, the air supply in the sub itself can sustain the crew for a day or so. Depends on the size of the submarine and the number of men inside.
Oxygen bottles were normally carried in WW2, not sure about today.

4. Since torpedoes do not have any air compartments, depth should not affect them at all. Maybe their components could be damaged by the pressurisation process, but as soon as they are in the ambient pressure, they should work normally.

5. Around 1000 meters (can be lower or higher), there is the deep sound channel, where sounds travel the slowest. In this area, sound travels the widest, sometimes around the globe.
Below that, sonar conditions are similar to the surface.
However, changing temperature in the water can distort sound conditions at any depth (geothermal vents, for example)

6. Below certain depth, submarines are noisier, because of the pressure on the hull.
Also, in a hypothetical deep diving scenario, submarines would avoid fast depth changes because the pressure change could cause damage, or at least noise.

Takeda Shingen · 01-02-09, 07:17 AM

Submarines frequently use chlorate candles to generate oxygen as a failsafe. In fact the candles are believed to have caused the explosion on HMS Tireless in 2007. However, in dire emergency, yes, they will ventilate. They also need to do so to run the emergency diesels, which is something they do regularly to ensure their smooth operation in a real emergency.

To add to AntEater and sonar, modern SSNs will frequenly slow to allow the towed array to decend into the deep channel, which allows, through convergence, one to detect sources much farther than could normally be heard. There are some legitimate ex-sonar men on this forum who could tell you a lot more.

In regards to depth, deep submarines are generally quieter than shallow ones. The primary reason for this is the water pressure, which allows for higher speeds without the risk of cavitation. Modern hulls are streamlined and strong enough to be relatively quiet under stress.

EFileTahi-A · 01-02-09, 08:38 AM

Thank you for your replies!

With such info I've already constructed some aspects of the sub's attributes that were missing.

Now, I have an attribute which is called "Ballast Tanks", this attribute is intend to control how fast or slow a sub can ascend descend while submerged. It also controls the amount of floods the vessel can sustain, i.e. the more points invested in this attribute the more / bigger ballast tanks the sub will have, thus, making it easier to control its buoyancy.

Does this makes sense? I mean, is the attribute's correctly described?

SteamWake · 01-02-09, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFileTahi-A

Thank you for your replies!

With such info I've already constructed some aspects of the sub's attributes that were missing.

Now, I have an attribute which is called "Ballast Tanks", this attribute is intend to control how fast or slow a sub can ascend descend while submerged. It also controls the amount of floods the vessel can sustain, i.e. the more points invested in this attribute the more / bigger ballast tanks the sub will have, thus, making it easier to control its buoyancy.

Does this makes sense? I mean, is the attribute's correctly described?

While the ballast tanks are used to control bouyancy they are only part of the equation. Speed, dive plane size and angle, ships mass, even the waters temprature and salinity are all factors.

EFileTahi-A · 01-02-09, 10:31 AM

Indeed SteamWake, but this attribute's efficiency is described as is, without having in count other factors, like the engines, mass etc...

Could you describe me the percentage of what each factor weights in a percentual scale for ascending descending?

Like, Ballast Tanks influences the bouyancy by 30%, speed 40% etc...

Thanks alot for the reply.

SteamWake · 01-02-09, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFileTahi-A

Indeed SteamWake, but this attribute's efficiency is described as is, without having in count other factors, like the engines, mass etc...

Could you describe me the percentage of what each factor weights in a percentual scale for ascending descending?

Like, Ballast Tanks influences the bouyancy by 30%, speed 40% etc...

Thanks alot for the reply.

Well it would depend on which boat. Im no expert so I'll defer to those that are.

Might want to take a look into the 'Janes' books http://www.janes.com/

Frame57 · 01-02-09, 11:54 AM

You acheive neutral bouyancy by using the trim tanks. Once that is acheived you use speed and planes to change depth. MBT's are used primarily when surfacing and submerging.

lesrae · 01-02-09, 12:55 PM

Regarding point 6, I seem to remember being told that boats will keep their speed up when operating close to their maximum diving depth, as even blowing all MBTs may not be enough to get them to surface in the event of a propulsion failure, or reactor scram, at that depth.

Keeping their speed up should allow them to plane up to a shallower depth with residual speed and propulsion power, up to a depth where the MBTs become effective again.

In a similar way, speed when shallow is kept down, to prevent accidental broaching, cavitation and to minimise any surface wake or disturbance.

EFileTahi-A · 01-02-09, 01:57 PM

Interesting!

Now, regarding point 1, any clues? Also, it is faster / easier to ascend or descend?

Thank you all for your replies.

Frame57 · 01-02-09, 04:32 PM

I would have to cite Janes verbage in order to not compromise classified info. There are many factors to this question. At test depth with a flank bell, with full rise on the fairwater water planes and the stern holding about a 40 degree up angle. We ascend the surface in quick order. The depth gage is literaly a blur, so you are dealing with seconds and not minutes. Providing the COW hit the emergency blow valves.

SteamWake · 01-02-09, 05:42 PM

All I can say is it must be one hellua ride inside. I dont know how everone doesent loose their footing and get tossed about like peas in a can.

All ahead flank !

Heres one without 'evidently' forward momentum.

EFileTahi-A · 01-03-09, 08:10 AM

Hmmm very interesting!

If the ballast tanks cease to work (Like loosing pressure to empty the tanks), how will the crew / sub handle such situation?

Furthermore, verify if the following is correct:

"If some of the submarine's compartments get flooded with water (for any cause, attack or accident) the ballast tanks would then need to be proportionally emptyed to counter the aditional weight of the water in order to maintain bouyancy."

SteamWake · 01-03-09, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFileTahi-A

"If some of the submarine's compartments get flooded with water (for any cause, attack or accident) the ballast tanks would then need to be proportionally emptyed to [HOPEFULLY] counter the aditional weight of the water in order to maintain bouyancy."

Edited for you. The tanks are designed for a boat under 'normal' operating circumstances. Get too much dead weight in the boat and the ONLY way you could get to surface is by propulsion.

The usuall procedure would be to try to get the dead weight water out of the boat using pumps.

Frame57 · 01-03-09, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

All I can say is it must be one hellua ride inside. I dont know how everone doesent loose their footing and get tossed about like peas in a can.

All ahead flank !

Heres one without 'evidently' forward momentum.

The cooks in particular hated this because it is impossible to prepare chow when doing these evolutions. High speed maneuver's are called "angles and dangles".

01-02-09, 06:04 AM	#1
EFileTahi-A A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Portugal Posts: 77 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	A few questions regarding submarines I'm coding a futuristic turn based submarine war game and I need to understand some basic features of nowadays subware. Please note that some questions might look (or are indeed) dumb, give me a discount will ya? 1 - How fast can a nowadays military sub ascend and descend? 2 - Maximum depth of military subs / maximum depth ever recorded (Cientific piloted subs included). 3 - I understand that electrolysis and special equipment is required to produce air. But what if this life support system fails. Do they imediately need to surface or they also store air in pressurized tanks? 4 - Does depth influences in any way the speed of torpedos or their ability to work? (at very deep depths) 5 - Does depth influences in any way the sonar's efficiency? 6 - Is there any restriction or different behaviour on submarines when in extreme deep depths, i.e. do subs operate the same way dispiting the depth they are? Thank you for any possible info. __________________ "In wild life, red and black often alert predators to stay away..."

01-02-09, 07:06 AM	#2
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'll answer some I know 2. Since Trieste was in US navy service, you can say the maximum depth of a military sub is 10,500 meters. The woods hole submersibles (Alvin etc) can go around 6000 meters or so. However, maximum realistic depth for a combat submarine was the russian Komsomolets with around 1500 meters. Normally today's SSNs operate above 300 meters. 3. In larger submarines, the air supply in the sub itself can sustain the crew for a day or so. Depends on the size of the submarine and the number of men inside. Oxygen bottles were normally carried in WW2, not sure about today. 4. Since torpedoes do not have any air compartments, depth should not affect them at all. Maybe their components could be damaged by the pressurisation process, but as soon as they are in the ambient pressure, they should work normally. 5. Around 1000 meters (can be lower or higher), there is the deep sound channel, where sounds travel the slowest. In this area, sound travels the widest, sometimes around the globe. Below that, sonar conditions are similar to the surface. However, changing temperature in the water can distort sound conditions at any depth (geothermal vents, for example) 6. Below certain depth, submarines are noisier, because of the pressure on the hull. Also, in a hypothetical deep diving scenario, submarines would avoid fast depth changes because the pressure change could cause damage, or at least noise. __________________ Last edited by AntEater; 01-02-09 at 07:07 AM.

01-02-09, 07:17 AM	#3
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Submarines frequently use chlorate candles to generate oxygen as a failsafe. In fact the candles are believed to have caused the explosion on HMS Tireless in 2007. However, in dire emergency, yes, they will ventilate. They also need to do so to run the emergency diesels, which is something they do regularly to ensure their smooth operation in a real emergency. To add to AntEater and sonar, modern SSNs will frequenly slow to allow the towed array to decend into the deep channel, which allows, through convergence, one to detect sources much farther than could normally be heard. There are some legitimate ex-sonar men on this forum who could tell you a lot more. In regards to depth, deep submarines are generally quieter than shallow ones. The primary reason for this is the water pressure, which allows for higher speeds without the risk of cavitation. Modern hulls are streamlined and strong enough to be relatively quiet under stress. Last edited by Takeda Shingen; 01-02-09 at 07:19 AM.

01-02-09, 08:38 AM	#4
EFileTahi-A A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Portugal Posts: 77 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Thank you for your replies! With such info I've already constructed some aspects of the sub's attributes that were missing. Now, I have an attribute which is called "Ballast Tanks", this attribute is intend to control how fast or slow a sub can ascend descend while submerged. It also controls the amount of floods the vessel can sustain, i.e. the more points invested in this attribute the more / bigger ballast tanks the sub will have, thus, making it easier to control its buoyancy. Does this makes sense? I mean, is the attribute's correctly described? __________________ "In wild life, red and black often alert predators to stay away..."

01-02-09, 10:31 AM	#6
EFileTahi-A A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Portugal Posts: 77 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Indeed SteamWake, but this attribute's efficiency is described as is, without having in count other factors, like the engines, mass etc... Could you describe me the percentage of what each factor weights in a percentual scale for ascending descending? Like, Ballast Tanks influences the bouyancy by 30%, speed 40% etc... Thanks alot for the reply. __________________ "In wild life, red and black often alert predators to stay away..."

01-02-09, 11:54 AM	#8
Frame57 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: 1300 feet on the crapper Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	You acheive neutral bouyancy by using the trim tanks. Once that is acheived you use speed and planes to change depth. MBT's are used primarily when surfacing and submerging. __________________ "My Religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds." Albert Einstein

01-02-09, 12:55 PM	#9
lesrae Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somerset, UK. Posts: 931 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Regarding point 6, I seem to remember being told that boats will keep their speed up when operating close to their maximum diving depth, as even blowing all MBTs may not be enough to get them to surface in the event of a propulsion failure, or reactor scram, at that depth. Keeping their speed up should allow them to plane up to a shallower depth with residual speed and propulsion power, up to a depth where the MBTs become effective again. In a similar way, speed when shallow is kept down, to prevent accidental broaching, cavitation and to minimise any surface wake or disturbance.

01-02-09, 01:57 PM	#10
EFileTahi-A A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Portugal Posts: 77 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Interesting! Now, regarding point 1, any clues? Also, it is faster / easier to ascend or descend? Thank you all for your replies. __________________ "In wild life, red and black often alert predators to stay away..." Last edited by EFileTahi-A; 01-03-09 at 08:15 AM.

01-02-09, 04:32 PM	#11
Frame57 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: 1300 feet on the crapper Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I would have to cite Janes verbage in order to not compromise classified info. There are many factors to this question. At test depth with a flank bell, with full rise on the fairwater water planes and the stern holding about a 40 degree up angle. We ascend the surface in quick order. The depth gage is literaly a blur, so you are dealing with seconds and not minutes. Providing the COW hit the emergency blow valves. __________________ "My Religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds." Albert Einstein

01-02-09, 05:42 PM	#12
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	All I can say is it must be one hellua ride inside. I dont know how everone doesent loose their footing and get tossed about like peas in a can. All ahead flank ! Heres one without 'evidently' forward momentum. Last edited by SteamWake; 01-02-09 at 05:43 PM.

01-03-09, 08:10 AM	#13
EFileTahi-A A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Portugal Posts: 77 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Hmmm very interesting! If the ballast tanks cease to work (Like loosing pressure to empty the tanks), how will the crew / sub handle such situation? Furthermore, verify if the following is correct: "If some of the submarine's compartments get flooded with water (for any cause, attack or accident) the ballast tanks would then need to be proportionally emptyed to counter the aditional weight of the water in order to maintain bouyancy." __________________ "In wild life, red and black often alert predators to stay away..."