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Old 03-29-2021, 11:29 AM   #1
jrb531
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Default An Honest Question

I paid my $35 to support what I thought looked to be a most promising up and coming Sub Simulator. I have followed the progress over the years and what I am going to ask here might offend some. This is not my intent and IMHO I think it's a very fair and honest question that those of us who have supported the development of Wolfpack deserve.


First a foundation for my question so you do not think I am just taking potshots at a small but dedicated team.


Release on Steam was March 15, 2019 (Two years ago)

Version, Date

0.15: April 2019
0.16: June 2019
0.18: July 2019
0.19: September 2019
0.20: October 2019

0.21: March 2020
0.22: April 2020
0.23: May 2020
0.24: July 2020

August, September, October, November, December, January, February, March.....


So it's been seven months since the last real update to the game. We have been told the development team consists of two people, one working on water and another drawing pictures of upcoming new sub compartments.


Simple math of seven months, working a standard 40 hour work week comes to a sum total of 1120 hours for each person on the time...


IF they are working on this game full time.


So here is my question or questions...


1. Are both devs still working on this game exclusively 100% and not other side jobs or side games?


2. Has the money run out and if not has some of the profits been funneled into jump starting a new game or project?


You see since we, in a sense, financed this project, we are in a way stockholders and I think we have a right to know honest answers.


I do not think anyone with common sense can believe that in 1120 hours, water is still not finished and the artwork of a few compartments have not been completed. If other things have been done, why no updates in seven months?



As a note to Subsim. Yes I just joined but I have been here for many years lurking. I did not join just to "make waves? but since Subsim is, in effect, supporting this game (When I joined just now Subsim even suggested I support Wolfpack) I would think even Subsim would want a bit more honesty.


Yes I see all sorts of behind the scene updates but considering that Steam reports only 80-100ish people playing the game each week and that they only sold 50-70k copies, at $25 profit per copy (Steam keeps 30%) they would need to sell 4000-8000 copies a year just to keep the lights on. That 1.25 million they made initially after taxes (guess) for 3ish years of prior development does not hold out. This is a very nitch game. IMHO 90% of the people who want this game have already bought it, the other 10% are waiting for it to be finished.



In closing... I want to be wrong. I want this game and it's lofty goals to succeed. I want to support small teams of dedicated people working on projects of passion.


I also want honestly. I think we deserve it. I think the members of this community deserve it. If the has been moved to "weekend" development, perhaps the goals need to be readjusted and new, more reasonable goals, need to be issued.



Thanks for hearing me out.
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Old 03-29-2021, 12:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrb531 View Post

So here is my question or questions...



As a note to Subsim. Yes I just joined but I have been here for many years lurking. I did not join just to "make waves? but since Subsim is, in effect, supporting this game (When I joined just now Subsim even suggested I support Wolfpack) I would think even Subsim would want a bit more honesty.
.
Hey, thanks for joining Subsim and I will try my best to answer your question with complete candor.

1. Are both devs still working on this game exclusively 100% and not other side jobs or side games?
As far as I know, yes, they are still working fulltime on the game and do not have side jobs. The lead programmer took the month of March off for family leave but I believe he has stated that he plans to return this week.


2. Has the money run out and if not has some of the profits been funneled into jump starting a new game or project?
Money is not an issue, they have made enough to continue working on Wolfpack (simple math as you pointed out makes that obvious). I am not aware of any other projects.




Quote:
I do not think anyone with common sense can believe that in 1120 hours, water is still not finished and the artwork of a few compartments have not been completed. If other things have been done, why no updates in seven months?
I understand how you feel. I feel a positive attitude is very helpful. The answer I have given before is the same, there are now 4 people working on 4 concurrent parts of the game and when each part is completed, the game will move forward significantly. I can say, in our weekly meetings, I have not detected any reluctance to continue, to work on the game, or to complete the game. The devs have exhibited the same level of integrity and determination that attracted me to this project 5 years ago.

Thanks for your time, I hope that helps,
Neal
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Old 03-30-2021, 09:41 AM   #3
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Thank you for your kind response. Honestly I'm still skeptical as, in my mind, the progress vs hours supposedly worked just do not add up but time will tell.


I WANT to be wrong, but my gut instinct says otherwise. I'd still rather a dev respond to my questions. I think we all would as I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering. I've been burned so many times with these "kick-starter" Alpha games. For every success like 7 Days to Die, and Valheim, there are 100 others regulated to the Humble "$5 for 20 Steam Games" bin.


Each and every time, once the money either runs out or starts to get low, the game progress slows to a crawl while the dev starts a new project on the side or has to go back to work full time.



In the case of a game like 7 Days, they sold well over a million copies and could go on for years without a single additional copy being sold. Due to the nature of the game and it's more broad based appeal, sales continue to trickle in with new, although discounted now, sales.


As we all know on SubSim, simulator games are more of a nitch type of game appealing to only a small percentage of the public. The 50-70k copies already sold for Wolfpack is quite good for a project of this kind but the "up front" money at around 1.25 mil (some say less) with a team of 2-4 people over 3+ years just does not bode well for the future.


I'm said all this before so no need to rehash this. I notice another competing game which is less advertised here is also up and coming. It is my hope that both games can florish and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for at least one. We go for years with nothing but old poorly programmed sub sims and how we suddenly have a bunch. I pray I am wrong, I really do.


Thanks for hearing me out.


P.S. I'd still love to have a direct answer from a dev as to my questions, not to offend you in any way as being their spokesperson here at it seems
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Old 03-30-2021, 07:58 PM   #4
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No offense taken.
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Old 04-03-2021, 05:07 PM   #5
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Having spent a long time silent running on subsim I'm glad to see Neal and the Devs keeping on top of this and keeping us informed in the stickied thread.

I think you're missing a trick however in not making these same updates to the steam community feed. I suspect a lot of the game owners don't even know this community exists and would greatly appreciate the feed of info.

Just my 2 pence!

Thanks and good luck!
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Old 04-03-2021, 05:09 PM   #6
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Default welcome back!

Beardmoresam!
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Old 04-03-2021, 08:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrb531 View Post
I paid my $35 to support what I thought looked to be a most promising up and coming Sub Simulator. I have followed the progress over the years and what I am going to ask here might offend some. This is not my intent and IMHO I think it's a very fair and honest question that those of us who have supported the development of Wolfpack deserve.


First a foundation for my question so you do not think I am just taking potshots at a small but dedicated team.


Release on Steam was March 15, 2019 (Two years ago)

Version, Date

0.15: April 2019
0.16: June 2019
0.18: July 2019
0.19: September 2019
0.20: October 2019

0.21: March 2020
0.22: April 2020
0.23: May 2020
0.24: July 2020

August, September, October, November, December, January, February, March.....


So it's been seven months since the last real update to the game. We have been told the development team consists of two people, one working on water and another drawing pictures of upcoming new sub compartments.


Simple math of seven months, working a standard 40 hour work week comes to a sum total of 1120 hours for each person on the time...


IF they are working on this game full time.


So here is my question or questions...


1. Are both devs still working on this game exclusively 100% and not other side jobs or side games?


2. Has the money run out and if not has some of the profits been funneled into jump starting a new game or project?


You see since we, in a sense, financed this project, we are in a way stockholders and I think we have a right to know honest answers.


I do not think anyone with common sense can believe that in 1120 hours, water is still not finished and the artwork of a few compartments have not been completed. If other things have been done, why no updates in seven months?



As a note to Subsim. Yes I just joined but I have been here for many years lurking. I did not join just to "make waves? but since Subsim is, in effect, supporting this game (When I joined just now Subsim even suggested I support Wolfpack) I would think even Subsim would want a bit more honesty.


Yes I see all sorts of behind the scene updates but considering that Steam reports only 80-100ish people playing the game each week and that they only sold 50-70k copies, at $25 profit per copy (Steam keeps 30%) they would need to sell 4000-8000 copies a year just to keep the lights on. That 1.25 million they made initially after taxes (guess) for 3ish years of prior development does not hold out. This is a very nitch game. IMHO 90% of the people who want this game have already bought it, the other 10% are waiting for it to be finished.



In closing... I want to be wrong. I want this game and it's lofty goals to succeed. I want to support small teams of dedicated people working on projects of passion.


I also want honestly. I think we deserve it. I think the members of this community deserve it. If the has been moved to "weekend" development, perhaps the goals need to be readjusted and new, more reasonable goals, need to be issued.



Thanks for hearing me out.
I think your questions are fair. I purchased the game and loved playing it at first. I love the attention to detail of all the systems. However, if you don't have friends to play with (and the subsim world seems to be getting smaller and smaller), it sort of loses it's fun (for me). I enjoy the systems but find myself wanting a career, a purpose. It really isn't a fault of the game. It was sold as is, and it is very good at what it is supposed to do!
Part of the problem I think is that interest in WW2 with the new generation(s) is like my interest in the Civil War. People my age, who's fathers were WW2 era veterans, really enjoyed the surge of computer games in the 1990s... they were different. Now you have to appease a different crowd and I don't think they care much about this. So those of us that still do, expect things like SH3.. I don't think those types of games will exist anymore in the near future.
This game does a lot of great things. It is especially fun if you have a group of friends to play with. For me I just don't have that anymore.
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:59 AM   #8
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Old 04-09-2021, 02:15 PM   #9
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Looks good, counts when it's patched in the game.


Sorry but I'm a bit pissed after you copy and pasted the very same update text you have been using for months. You know people are upset, you know how delayed you guys are yet you could not take the time to provide a REAL update????



You had to know what effect this was going to have when you posted that update. I guess you feel that we will look at that video and it will shut us all up. You know what will shut us up? Patching the game like you promised back in November saying it would be finished in 2020.


Now don't read into this but this cool looking short video of waves (and it does look great) was from today? last month? 6 months ago?


How would we know as all you tell us is so-in-so is still working on water.


All these ships that were rendered over 800 hours.... what are the names? Can we see them? If not then why not?


800+ hours drawing a few rooms in a sub? I think the Mona Lisa was painted quicker


Yeah yeah I'm a jerk for asking but what did you expect when you posted the same BS update that you have been using for the past 7 months?
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:52 PM   #10
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The video was from today, I made it. It's a representation of the place we are at in the water asset.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jrb531 View Post

800+ hours drawing a few rooms in a sub? I think the Mona Lisa was painted quicker
Yeah, but could the Mona Lisa take down two large freighters and a tanker in one convoy encounter?


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Old 04-09-2021, 07:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscharpf View Post
I think your questions are fair. I purchased the game and loved playing it at first. I love the attention to detail of all the systems. However, if you don't have friends to play with (and the subsim world seems to be getting smaller and smaller), it sort of loses it's fun (for me). I enjoy the systems but find myself wanting a career, a purpose. It really isn't a fault of the game. It was sold as is, and it is very good at what it is supposed to do!
Part of the problem I think is that interest in WW2 with the new generation(s) is like my interest in the Civil War. People my age, who's fathers were WW2 era veterans, really enjoyed the surge of computer games in the 1990s... they were different. Now you have to appease a different crowd and I don't think they care much about this. So those of us that still do, expect things like SH3.. I don't think those types of games will exist anymore in the near future.
This game does a lot of great things. It is especially fun if you have a group of friends to play with. For me I just don't have that anymore.
I strongly agree with you on this. Playing this game by your home is kind of weird...
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Old 04-10-2021, 11:11 AM   #12
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Icon7 Sub Sims

Hey....just my observations. I joined subsim back in 2001. I departed After a few years due to family needs.
When I joined the ONLY subsim on the horizon was SH2. When I left SH3 was not even in whisper format.
I came back in February 2021....WOW! The volume of subsims and other naval Sims is crazy!
My point is I don't believe subsims are going away anytime soon!
My experience is quality work often takes more time than anybody wants, especially those doing the work. I engineer, design, and construct many things similar to other things but absolutely original in their final form. It usually takes me double the time I allow due to the nature of that process.

My overall points are be patient, understanding, trust the process, trust Neal, and be persistent in support and encouragement.

Its a win win! If the SIM flops....you held the high ground. If the SIM rocks, you hold the high ground.
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Old 04-10-2021, 11:54 AM   #13
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Thanks! That is very encouraging.
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Old 04-10-2021, 12:25 PM   #14
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I admit I was a bit upset when I posted that.


The water looks good, real good. I try to be fair when I post in that I will admit when I'm wrong and I so want to be wrong.


So many questions and I keep wondering why being honest with us seems to elude the developers.


Example:


The water was clearly supposed to be out back in 2020. Something delayed it significantly but for months and months the devs only felt the need to say each week.... "So-in-so still working on water"


How much does it cost them to take a few minutes and actually give us a REAL update? Most of us here are not young kids and have been around the block a few times. We know the smell test and if it don't smell right then something is wrong.


Something is wrong, they are not saying, and while I think we all know it, most elect to hope for the best and keep quiet about it.


Another easy one... If the water is so close, close enough that you can release a video, I'll ask two questions here.


1. Why have we not seen any updates over these past months?
2. How close are we to seeing the water being finished?


Last easy question:


Someone is working on ships correct? Well unless they have been working on only one ship for these past 6-7 months (we are in trouble if this is true! LOL) then why not show us a picture each week of new ships as they are being worked on?


You see, in a way, we are your backers and we do deserve real updates on progress. If the head of a company asked the dev team for an update and the team replied each week "Still working on water" - well this would never fly.


Communication is free and in a small close community like this one, honesty goes a long way to build trust. Human nature takes over when there is little communication and we fill in our best guess.



My best guess, according to the hundreds of failed EA games on steam is that when development slows, there is something wrong.


https://store.steampowered.com/curat...ccess-Watcher/


I'd love to see that water. It looks amazing!
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Old 04-10-2021, 01:50 PM   #15
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Is there any type of answer that would actually satisfy you? Seems like that if there is an answer for your question, you demand more.
Seems like to me that your demands are starting a borderline of "personal issues".
Can you reference to something that would require the devs to release weekly, monthly updates? Or is this your personal wish?
Sorry, I understand the amount of work that goes into developing software (any type) so maybe I am fine with an update when something reaches a milestone and a release worthy announcement.

I don't mean any offense, just my personal observation on this thread.
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