Sinking Battleships with GWX

[zosX]

I got back to playing SH3 and started a new career. This may be the most addicting subsim ever with SH4 up there as well. So on my 3rd patrol in a Type II, I run across a massive convoy with a Revenge Class battleship in the center. I lucked out and found a gap and fired all three remaining torpedoes in a spread from 3km out. Depth was set to about 10m as I wanted it to hit well below the waterline and didn't know what would be best. I dropped the scope and somehow all three hit. Looking again it was completely engulfed in flames and listing. I tried to shadow the convoy, but since it was daylight they spotted me when I surfaced (stupid, stupid). Water depth was only about 70m, so I got down to the bottom and managed to eventually shake 2 destroyers. The battleship sailed away. Bummer. I think its time to upgrade.

[the dark knight]

What I found works best, is to send 2 under the keel, one under the forward powder magazine, one under the rear powder magazine. Then I will dispatch one or two into the side, just under the armor belt, and above the torpedo blisters. The magazine hits will usually cause the ship to stop, or catch fire, and the two in the side will cause it to turn turtle. I do not know if the torpedo blisters are modeled in game, but in real life, a low hit would not hurt a capital ship.

[GoldenRivet]

3 torpedoes should have holed the battleship enough to cause crippling damage or to sink her in GWX.

I have found that it is best to fire at least 3 or 4 fish at a large battleship. If you are at very close range, a magnetic trigger about a meter or two under the keel is a good one to throw in among all the impact fish.

This will either completely destroy the battleship or it will cause enough damage to slow it to a limping 4 or 5 knots.

Once the escorts sail onto the horizon, this is slow enough speed that you could easily keep pace with the battleship while surfaced in the darkness and finish her off after reloading if needed.

I think 3 - 4 shots is pretty realistic.

The HMS Royal Oak was sunk at anchor with 4 hits from U-47's torpedoes... she was sent to the bottom within 25 minutes of the first shot being fired.

[Gerald]

3-4 fish,do the trick..in order to get them down "normal".

[Jimbuna]

Ships also have random 'sweet spots' ammo magazines and fuel bunkers, hitting one of them can often mean one eel will do the trick.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Ships also have random 'sweet spots' ammo magazines and fuel bunkers, hitting one of them can often mean one eel will do the trick.

Under the number two turret generally works for me. Seems to light off the main magazine and that tends to be all she wrote... I'll add though, very very accurate shots of this sort are generally more difficult the further from the target you are. If possible, get inside of 1500 meters for this tight of a shot

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Under the number two turret generally works for me. Seems to light off the main magazine and that tends to be all she wrote... I'll add though, very very accurate shots of this sort are generally more difficult the further from the target you are. If possible, get inside of 1500 meters for this tight of a shot

Rgr that.

[zosX]

It was listing about 10 degrees or more and clearly had problems maintaining a straight line. The bridge was completely engulfed in flames. I couldn't follow it for long because I was jumped pretty quickly when I surfaced. I thought I was further behind the pack, but surfaced right next to them. I crash dove and drastically changed course. My batteries were nearly flat at that point due to running up to the convoy at flank, so I only had ahead slow and not much water below me to use. I had been trapped by a destroyer early on in my second patrol in extremely shallow water and there was no escape really possible. This time I had a much easier time evading them. I just kept changing depth (deeper, deeper) and course and after a while they seemed to have lost my position. I popped up to the surface after they finally left, but the convoy was long gone and running in the same direction at flank didn't turn them up again. It didn't matter as I was out of torpedoes anyways. I think if I could have stuck near the convoy and observed the battleship, it would have likely sunk. What's the error on the early torpedoes? Is it 5m too deep or is it 6 feet (2m)? You get a message early on saying that it is 6 feet, which is odd, because the germans didn't use feet. Also, what is the best place to hit capital class ships? Doesn't the armor just extend below the waterline or does it go to the bottom of the ship? I would have tried placing torpedoes towards the magazine, but given the range and angle, I felt a tight spread would maximize my chances of hitting the battleship. I saved before I attacked the convoy, so maybe I will try running this again. I didn't expect all 3 torpedoes to make contact, yet alone explode, so I was pretty dumbfounded when the ship seemed to have no problems staying upright with three huge holes in the sides. I'll have to try the magnetic detonators next.

[the dark knight]

To answer some questions;

1. on average, the main armor belt on average would extend between 1m-2m underwater to prevent underwater shell hits from piercing the ship. Beneath that should be a thing called a torpedo blister (or bulges) that extends to the double hull under the ship. This area was lightly armored, or not at all, but around 2-3m behind the outside of the bulge was an armored bulkhead. The space in between could flood, and acted like spaced armor on a tank to keep a torpedo from blasting a hole in the main hull. The torpedo bulges were sacrificial. I am not sure if these are accurately modeled in SHIII or GWX. This is the Bismarck's protection scheme, and all armor is red in this graphic. As you can see, Bismarck had a citadel that was water tight from the outer hull of the ship and protected by torpedo bulges. (hence why most experts say there is no way the British sank her, and the evidence on the sea floor shows she was scuttled) Most modern Battleships and some carriers used an underwater protection scheme like this:



2. Best place to hit is between A-B main turrets or just under B turret. As you can see in the graphic, the powder is stored under the turrets. In british warships the powder is stored lower in the hull. The British also used cordite, and pure cordite is unstable. This haunted the HMS Hood against the Bismarck when Bismarck lit the hood's powder magazines on fire. This same flaw was exploited by the Germans in WWI at Jutland, causing the British to have 3 battle cruisers explode due to magazines exploding. If you send your torpedo's 1 meter under the keel with magnetic pistols, you can cause a powder magazine to explode. If you send one under the engine rooms, they will flood, and she will come to a stop. Holes in the side are easier to patch than holes on the keel, and holes in the keel will give you more flooding.

There are some scenarios in single missions where you can practice sinking capital ships, and try different ways of attacking.

[the dark knight]

Another thing I just thought of, when you have the ship locked up in the scope, click the word ship in the top right corner of the attack scope. This will bring up the ship recognition guide, and the exact ship you are locked onto. The guide will tell you displacement as well as the draft of the ship. (how deep the hull goes under water) If the ship has a draft of say, 9.8M set your torpedoes manually to a depth of 10.8-11M deep.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by the dark knight

To answer some questions;

Very good explanations, and very nice drawings, but you make some assertions I must challenge, even at the risk of derailing the thread. Of course I could argue that you already did that by bringing up the sidenotes in the first place.

1. on average, the main armor belt on average would extend between 1m-2m underwater to prevent underwater shell hits from piercing the ship. Beneath that should be a thing called a torpedo blister (or bulges) that extends to the double hull under the ship. This area was lightly armored, or not at all, but around 2-3m behind the outside of the bulge was an armored bulkhead.

This bulkhead was also very light, designed only to keep splinters from the outer hull and the torpedo itself from going through. In the case of Yamato one torpedo was observed to go through the hole already made by another. It almost certainly detonated against this splinter bulkhead and caused major damage and flooding.

The space in between could flood, and acted like spaced armor on a tank to keep a torpedo from blasting a hole in the main hull. The torpedo bulges were sacrificial. I am not sure if these are accurately modeled in SHIII or GWX.

Quite true. In fact one type of protection scheme had the bulges already flooded, so there could be no water coming in to cause offside flooding.

(hence why most experts say there is no way the British sank her, and the evidence on the sea floor shows she was scuttled)

Those experts say the torpedoes did not deliver the hoped-for coup-de-gras. But they also say that she certainly would have sunk within the day. Both torpedoes and scuttling were attempts to prevent the other side from salvaging the ship and scoring a moral victory. British shellfire certainly did sink Bismarck. Or to put it more accurately, destroyed her.

This same flaw was exploited by the Germans in WWI at Jutland, causing the British to have 3 battle cruisers explode due to magazines exploding.

The main difference is that all three battlecruisers at Jutland took turret hits, which would not have flashed down to the magazines if they had not adopted the procedure of locking the anti-flash doors open to increase the rate of fire. It's fairly certain that none of them took penetrating magazine hits.

If you send your torpedo's 1 meter under the keel with magnetic pistols, you can cause a powder magazine to explode.

Is there any evidence that a submarine torpedo ever did that to a battleship? Most of the sinkings I'm aware of were due to fires spreading to the magazine long after the original strike. I believe the game has it completely wrong there.

Oh, and a side-note: The plural is "torpedoes".

[Jimbuna]

Well...trying to keep everything within game terms:

[the dark knight]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Very good explanations, and very nice drawings, but you make some assertions I must challenge, even at the risk of derailing the thread. Of course I could argue that you already did that by bringing up the sidenotes in the first place.


This bulkhead was also very light, designed only to keep splinters from the outer hull and the torpedo itself from going through. In the case of Yamato one torpedo was observed to go through the hole already made by another. It almost certainly detonated against this splinter bulkhead and caused major damage and flooding.


Quite true. In fact one type of protection scheme had the bulges already flooded, so there could be no water coming in to cause offside flooding.


Those experts say the torpedoes did not deliver the hoped-for coup-de-gras. But they also say that she certainly would have sunk within the day. Both torpedoes and scuttling were attempts to prevent the other side from salvaging the ship and scoring a moral victory. British shellfire certainly did sink Bismarck. Or to put it more accurately, destroyed her.



The main difference is that all three battlecruisers at Jutland took turret hits, which would not have flashed down to the magazines if they had not adopted the procedure of locking the anti-flash doors open to increase the rate of fire. It's fairly certain that none of them took penetrating magazine hits.


Is there any evidence that a submarine torpedo ever did that to a battleship? Most of the sinkings I'm aware of were due to fires spreading to the magazine long after the original strike. I believe the game has it completely wrong there.

Oh, and a side-note: The plural is "torpedoes".

Okay, I should have said in theory with the underwater protection systems and how they were supposed to work. I doubt they are modeled in game anyway.

In real life, no. I have never seen any evidence that torpedoes could cause magazines to explode. However, it seems to work in SHIII. The game is completely wrong.

I could have sworn I had read (and maybe the book I am thinking of was wrong, or I am ms-remembering), said that the British Battlecruisers took penetrating hits to the roofs from plunging fire, and this allowed the shell to hit the ammo. Like I said, it was a long time ago, and I could very well be wrong. It is all good!

In a way, yes. I will agree the British did cause the circumstances to unfold to force the scuttling of Bismarck. You could make the argument that they sank her due to those circumstances.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by the dark knight

I could have sworn I had read (and maybe the book I am thinking of was wrong, or I am ms-remembering), said that the British Battlecruisers took penetrating hits to the roofs from plunging fire, and this allowed the shell to hit the ammo. Like I said, it was a long time ago, and I could very well be wrong. It is all good!

Or you could very well be right. Since the magazines were under the turrets it's kind of hard to tell what did happen. The only evidence the sources I've read cite is that all three were seen to take turret hits.

In a way, yes. I will agree the British did cause the circumstances to unfold to force the scuttling of Bismarck. You could make the argument that they sank her due to those circumstances.

Here is what I think is the best documentary ever made on the subject. Baron von Mullenheim-Rechber, the ranking survivor of Bismarck, addressed the controversy with one of my favorite quotes of all time: "You can say to both sides 'Yes. You sank the Bismarck'."

[gi_dan2987]

Capital ships have lots of armor. I typically say one eel per 3000-5000 tons for unarmored merchants. The fat ladies you should double blast (Put one below the conning tower, and one under the smoke stack, or one just ahead of the smoke stack, and one just behind the stack). If it's a large merchant or whale factory ship or any other massive ocean going merchant, use three fish evenly spread. Shot location does help!

Want to know how not only to hit your target every time, but pick and choose with confidence WHERE on the target ship you're going to hit? Use the fixed wire formula. It has worked wonders with me. There's nothing fancy about it, you set up for 90AOB, and the way this works, range is not a factor (though attempt to be within 500-1500 meters for a larger margin of error in case the speed estimate is a little off. Being closer gives you wiggle room).

First, set up 90AOB to the target. When the target is nearing the bow of your boat (000 degrees relative bearing, don't wait too long. He must not cross your bow yet or then you'll have to take a range reading for a gyro shot), stop moving your sub, set the crosshair at a point just ahead of his bow. When his bow starts to pass your vertical reticle, start the stop watch. Use this time to set up your torps and what not if you have not already done so.

Locate the ship in the manual, and calculate his length in meters with this formula

((Ship length in meters) * (1.94)) / (Time in seconds) = Ship speed in knots.

1.94 is the conversion constant. I don't know how or why it works, but it does.

At this point since you've set up your torps and AOB, all you need to do is set speed, turn TDC back on, and move your scope until gyro reaches 000. readjust AOB as necessary.

The torpedoes will now impact exactly where your vertical crosshair is. Wait for the ship to pass your crosshair, and begin launching eels when the various "soft spots" of the ship begin to cross.

On a capital ship, I give her the full salvo. It's going to take every one, trust me. Capital ships are no joke, but if you can put one under, that's tens of thousands of tons and a sure promotion back home! I put one fish under the bow guns, one right under the conning tower, one under the stacks to finish the engines, and one under the stern guns.

With the conning tower gone, they can't radio for help, and with the engines gone they're dead in the water to be finished later if needed. Taking out the main guns is obvious. A ship that is stationary and defenseless without a radio or command center is a sunk ship indeed.

The spread of the hits will cause massive flooding on one side, causing the ship to capsize, and the rest of the necessary flooding will take place at this point. It could take hours or days for a capital ship to capitulate, especially with GWX3 awesome damage model and realistic sinking mechanics.

Try that out, and if you have any questions, help is aplenty in this Subsim Navy.

P.S. This method works wonders for attacking convoys.

Happy Hunting