Surface Tactics

[l02turner]

I have read a number of books written by famous WW2 skippers. A few of these Gentlemen attacked while on the surface. One famous attack had Capt O'Kane sneaking in at te rear of a covnoy containing several transports and 16 escorts (!!). In any case, Skipper O'Kane proceeded to approach the convoy from the rear while on the surface. He gets close and fires a volley, thinking he had it 2 vessels, when in reality he hit 4. The escorts then headed for our good Skipper and he dived in advance of the upcoming depth charging.
My question concerns the ability to get close to the column of transports while surfaced. He was not detected until he fired his torps and scored hits, lighting up the area and making his sub visible to the escorts. OTOH, If I am within miles of a convoy and am only running with the hull awash, the Japs spot me!. The time in question is late 1944, maybe Aug. so I assume the Japanese are using Radar but they seem awfully good at reading the screens!
Were the WW2 Skippers doing something I special I need to learn?

Thanks!

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by l02turner

I have read a number of books written by famous WW2 skippers. A few of these Gentlemen attacked while on the surface. One famous attack had Capt O'Kane sneaking in at te rear of a covnoy containing several transports and 16 escorts (!!). In any case, Skipper O'Kane proceeded to approach the convoy from the rear while on the surface. He gets close and fires a volley, thinking he had it 2 vessels, when in reality he hit 4. The escorts then headed for our good Skipper and he dived in advance of the upcoming depth charging.
My question concerns the ability to get close to the column of transports while surfaced. He was not detected until he fired his torps and scored hits, lighting up the area and making his sub visible to the escorts. OTOH, If I am within miles of a convoy and am only running with the hull awash, the Japs spot me!. The time in question is late 1944, maybe Aug. so I assume the Japanese are using Radar but they seem awfully good at reading the screens!
Were the WW2 Skippers doing something I special I need to learn?

Thanks!

good question.
while real-life skippers were successful with those tactics, don't try it with SH4.
you are playing a simulation against AI-enemy. once you close the enemy and get within whatever detection-sensor CAN sense you, you are detected. and then if you are in range of an enemy weapon, you are a dead duck. D-E-D, dead duck.

so, that's settled.

now, any submerged tactic that you read (Clay Blair, jr, Dick O'Kane, etc) can be used to great effect. general rule of thumb: get in front of your victim so that you can go slow and silent. make your plan-of-attack, fire your weapons at the maximum effective range, remembering that closer is always better, and then run-silent-and-run-deep.
practice makes perfect.
good luck!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by l02turner

I have read a number of books written by famous WW2 skippers. A few of these Gentlemen attacked while on the surface. One famous attack had Capt O'Kane sneaking in at te rear of a covnoy containing several transports and 16 escorts (!!). In any case, Skipper O'Kane proceeded to approach the convoy from the rear while on the surface. He gets close and fires a volley, thinking he had it 2 vessels, when in reality he hit 4. The escorts then headed for our good Skipper and he dived in advance of the upcoming depth charging.
My question concerns the ability to get close to the column of transports while surfaced. He was not detected until he fired his torps and scored hits, lighting up the area and making his sub visible to the escorts. OTOH, If I am within miles of a convoy and am only running with the hull awash, the Japs spot me!. The time in question is late 1944, maybe Aug. so I assume the Japanese are using Radar but they seem awfully good at reading the screens!
Were the WW2 Skippers doing something I special I need to learn?

Thanks!

Are you running the stock game or mods? In stock its nearly impossible to pull off a realistic night surface attack, the nights are typically too bright and the AI's visual sensors too hawkeyes.

In TMO, it is quite possible, I routinely pull off the night surface attacks that mirror history. Radar wise, the radar settings in stock and mods are far too effective and do not represent a historical reality in this sim. However, I fixed this with a mod for TMO, it is in the downloads area, called IJN radar fix. Basically, it adjusts the radar so they cant pick you up so easily.Subs are low profile targets and difficult to pick up on radar(of the era), especially the Japanese as they did not have a PPI scope, just an A scope and at night, could not differentiate contacts(typically). I've pulled off night surface attacks on convoys with radar equipped escorts, its about your profile to the beam, range, escort skill level.

In TMO you can get a radar warning receiver around late 43, so you can tell if enemy has radar and plan accordingly. Even with this, you'll rarely be able to get inside the convoy screen undetected, that would take setting the escorts and merchants to a "novice" or "poor" skill rating, in which they became quite useless conducting depth charge attacks and even on surface. Plus, most Japanese convoys were not large enough to use the Atlantic style u boat tactics but a modified variant thereof, most of them anyways.

Bottom line, if you're running stock, can't help ya. If running a major mod like TMO or TMO with RSRD, download my radar fix mod and try running TMO and applying the tactics in the book, you'll figure out what works etc. Depends, like in real life on visibility. Some nights in TMO are dark, some are in between, some are bright moonlight nights.

Quick story on a patrol I finished up last night...

April 1944 out of Fremantle in a Gato Class (Dace). I added the Take Ichi Convoy to the traffic that USS Jack attacked off Luzon on April 25 1944 and the Gurnard attacked on May 6 1944 in the Celebes Sea. This attack is mentioned in the book Silent Running by James Calvert, who was an Ensign running the TDC during April 25 attack. Convoy was 15 large transports and 12 escorts. They were zigging at 12 knots, first stop was in Manila, then second leg were taking reinforcements to Halmahera

They appeared at historical time and place after an Ultra I added in the radio traffic. Screen and zigs kept me, like history from getting in close. I tried repeatedly to get inside the screen but could not not. Ended up firing (as the Jack did) from nearly 8,000 yards out on surface, around 0400. I hit two ships with the spread, sunk one. During testing before, I managed to slip inside and attack submerged in daylight, its tough and rarely will the same tactics work, depends on position, timing etc. The zig plan is tough( as it was in real life, Jack tried repeatedly to attack)

I've added other historical convoys and TF as well, night surface attacks work. The large convoy O Kane and Tang attacked in October 44(the one where they were sunk by last torpedo in a circle run) I added. This convoy is large and it is possible get inside the screen as he did, also added the convoy they attacked in Koshiki Straits in June 1944, which was in very shallow waters approaching Nagasaki.

I am tweaking my traffic files and will release them soon.

[XenonSurf]

For night surface attacks you really need to play or the TMO mod or FOTRSU, the stock game doesn't simulate nights very well, it gives magic eye to the enemy as said above.
Then about Dick and surface attacks, well, in the mods above merchands and tankers can be very well armed with canons, 1 full hit of them can put you in serious trouble. I'm sure Dick did careful investigation about this prior of attacking and putting his men at risk. I find most info contained in the ship ID books useless, so I must rely on my scopes or UZO to determine if and where possible canons are placed on merchands. At full night you may be more safe inside a big convoy if destroyers are outside and somewhat far away, but I don't think SH4 handles ship collisions very well, destroyers may just go 'through' other ships, I still don't know if destroyers or battleships will navigate trying to avoid collisions, if yes you have a clear advantage inside a convoy. Firing your canon at night will however make you detect by everyone immediately. But what I have seen is actually destroyers sinking their own ships when firing at you...Cool collateral damage...But less tonnage for you


XS

[l02turner]

Thanks for the replies - all well written and easy to understand. It sounds like I need to install TMO so I will have a more realistic game!
Sincerely,

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by l02turner

Thanks for the replies - all well written and easy to understand. It sounds like I need to install TMO so I will have a more realistic game!
Sincerely,

At some point in 1943 or 44, the Japanese added radar detectors, at least in FOTRS-U. So I've learned to use the surface radar sparingly after identifying a contact. Once I have a target course and approximate distance I turn both off. There is one caveat about turning off the Air Search radar - there are dive bombers out there, mainly Jills, that will see you at night from a great distance and veer off their track straight to you. Their bombing is very accurate. It's a trade off between spotting aircraft and being picked up by escorts from your emissions.

Good hunting!

[Mios 4Me]

I haven't started a career early enough in FotRSU to know if it's still possible, but early-war night/bad weather surface attacks in stock can be a lot of fun:

It's late 1941 and Admiral Yamamoto and the rest of the IJN are still months away from learning the lesson that distant support is no support at all. Picture an invasion force off the Philippines which slowly breaks into two groups as the inexperienced and overexcited escorts become a vanguard en masse.

The submarine commander approaches the unarmed transport force from starboard, staying out of sight, then goes to flank and cuts in between the escorts and transports from somewhere between 90 and 135 degrees, and engages the two leading transports to starboard, as he begins a sharp turn to port to run down between the two columns of transports, guns and torpedoes blazing fore-and-aft.

Then picture the consternation of the escorts as they hear gunfire and explosions BEHIND them...

...then, later, as the escorts report the invasion transports are lost and that the enemy submarine escaped unharmed, the commander slowly unsheathes his sword....

[Armistead]

The game and mods vary with how close you can get at night. Some mods use darker nights by adjusting colors and light in the Env files. One thing I use to do that worked well is firing a M14 from very long range on slow, like 12,000 yards with the enemy approaching setting up a shot the best I could by radar. The goal wasn't to really hit anything, but when the escorts see it, some of them will follow the trail and go to hunting. This will usually leave a flank unguarded. You just take off out of visual range and attack on the surface from a different direction. The key when you get closer is to keep your speeds slow, I think most mods use 10kts and over as a factor that gets you seen. You also have to get turned around exposing your flank and that can get you seen and shot at, but I can usually pull one off at 2000 yards and get turned around with most mods with no moon and skedaddle .