US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[vienna]

Well,... that was pithy...






<O>

[vienna]

<O>

[Onkel Neal]

These debates surprise me

[mapuc]

Here's wild prediction in this Trump-Ukraine-Biden-impeachment saga.

The Congress decide to impeach President Trump and from there it goes on to the Senate.....before the Senate vote......President Trump....Resign
(or he don't)

Markus

[August]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Here's wild prediction in this Trump-Ukraine-Biden-impeachment saga.

The Congress decide to impeach President Trump and from there it goes on to the Senate.....before the Senate vote......President Trump....Resign
(or he don't)

Markus

If Impeachment passes the House it will be along party lines. If anything some Dems in Trump districts will break ranks and vote against it just for their own political survival but as far as I can tell they won't have a single republican vote.

Now the Speaker of the House has said that they would not move forward with Impeachment unless it is bipartisan. Since that is not likely to be the case there is more than a little doubt she will even let it get to a vote.

Either way Trump is not going anywhere at least until January 2021.

[em2nought]

So once impeachment fails what will be the democrats next step in the continuing attempted coup?


They had a big win with the Chick-fil-A surrender, but then RBG checked into the hospital again. If she croaks they're absolutely gonna flip their lids.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Here's wild prediction in this Trump-Ukraine-Biden-impeachment saga.

The Congress decide to impeach President Trump and from there it goes on to the Senate.....before the Senate vote......President Trump....Resign
(or he don't)

Markus

i have recently heard some low key subtle news reports concerning his health. could be a preparation for an exit to save face 'before' things can go bad for him and the party. Could be too just a normal check-up with the doctors. These days its hard to know fact from fiction. Only vienna knows lol

[mapuc]

A story from the world of the Danish media is funny but also tragic

Some weeks back several Danish newspaper had an article about children who had been detained. Those article described how up to 1000 children had been removed from they parents

Between the lines it was clearly a hint on how dreadful President Trump is.

Well until someone whispered those newspaper in their ears

The article you have posted is an old one...it's from 2015...when Obama was President.

It's like....Hey here something we can hang Trump on, doesn't matter if it's true or not...just print/post it..

Today it's almost impossible to find this article. I have tried to find it.

I know there are some Danes who have made a screen dump.

Markus

[vienna]

There in nothing like a well run, highly organized, and responsible Executive Branch...

...unfortunately for "we, the people", what Trump has delivered is nothing like a well run, highly organized, and responsible Executive Branch...


Navy Secretary forced out after Trump's war crimes intervention causes division and chaos in military --

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/polit...cer/index.html


Here is the text of the SECNAV's resignation letter:


READ: Navy Secretary Richard Spencer's letter to the President acknowledging his termination --

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/polit...ter/index.html

As Secretary of the Navy, one of the most important responsibilities I have to our people is to maintain good order and discipline throughout the ranks. I regard this as deadly serious business. The lives of our Sailors, Marines and civilian teammates quite literally depend on the professional execution of our many missions, and they also depend on the ongoing faith and support of the peopl we serve and the allies we serve alongside.

The rule of law is what sets us apart from our adversaries,” Spencer wrote. “Good order and discipline is what has enabled our victory against foreign tyranny time and again, from Captain Lawrence’s famous order ‘Don’t Give up the Ship’, to the discipline and determination that propelled our flag to the highest point on Iwo Jima.

The Constitution. and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, are the shields that set us apart, and the beacons that protect us all. Through my Title Ten Authority, I have strived to ensure our proceedings are fair, transparent and consistent, from the newest recruit to the Flag and General Officer level.

Unfortunately it has become apparent that in this respect, I no longer share the same understanding with the Commander in Chief who appointed me, in regards to the key principle of good order and discipline. I cannot in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my family, my flag and my faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Another person who is honorable and cognizant of their duties and responsibilities forced out because of the whims and fancies of Captain Bone Spurs...


...and the S.S. Trumptanic continues all ahead full towards the icebergs...






<O>

[Skybird]

"Trump's tax cut was a huge flop - generous gifts for corporations, no visible increase in investment," reads the devastating conclusion of Princeton economist and Keynesian Paul Krugman , "So critics are right and supporters wrong."

Wowh, if even a Krugman admits that. Economists hardly can get much more Keynesian than him.

https://translate.google.de/translat...a-1298067.html

Originally Posted by vienna

...and the S.S. Trumptanic continues all ahead full towards the icebergs...

It even zig-zags, not to miss even just a single one.



.................................................. ..............................................."So mething stinks to heaven!".................................."Quatsch !"


Der Tagesspiegel, Klaus Stuttmann

[August]

So when Trump survives this latest coup attempt and goes on to win reelection whatever will you do?

[Rockstar]

Ahhh I see the two great warrior arm chair generals of the internetwebz are stepping up to say Trump was wrong to support Gallagher. Are you saying Gallagher is guilty? Have any of you even bothered looking at the case? Seems to me, by your latest reaction to 'the daily headline' it never occurred to either of you two to even consider that part of it.

[August]

Many will debate the substance of the public impeachment testimony against President Trump. To me, each of the Democrats’ witnesses of the past two weeks appeared to be well-intentioned and hard-working, and seemed genuinely to believe they know what’s best.
But a picture also emerged of U.S. diplomats who appear to believe they, rather than the U.S. president, have the ultimate authority to determine our foreign policy. And if the president doesn’t go along? He clearly must be wrong — in their view. Or, even worse, he’s a traitor. He’s to be obstructed. Taken down.
In an odd turnabout, they actually make the case for President Trump’s mantra that we need to “drain the swamp.”
One can first look at the language witnesses used as they vented about Trump’s tutelage in ways that veered far from relevance to the impeachment allegations. They conveyed hurt feelings, bruised egos and strong differences of opinion. At times, the testimony sounded a bit like a human resources conference or psychotherapy session.
The diplomats testified that they were “shocked and devastated” to learn that Trump and Ukraine’s new president did not have faith in them. They complained that, under Trump, “foreign service professionals are being denigrated and undermined” and the State Department isn’t getting the “attention and respect” it deserves. They expressed “disappointment” that Trump had the nerve to defy the federal agencies by not discussing “any of our interagency agreed-upon talking points” in Trump’s first call with Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky. They were “embarrassed” in front of Ukrainians when they didn’t have answers about U.S. policy.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...d-run-the-show

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Ahhh I see the two great warrior arm chair generals of the internetwebz are stepping up to say Trump was wrong to support Gallagher. Are you saying Gallagher is guilty? Have any of you even bothered looking at the case? Seems to me, by your latest reaction to 'the daily headline' it never occurred to either of you two to even consider that part of it.

Oooh, a warning to the Moderators...


I'm gonna have to use an "F" word here...


... Here it comes...



Facts!...



In point of fact, Gallagher was actually found guilty of one of the ten charges leveled against him, in a verdict given by a seven member military jury. I'm not saying he's guilty: a military jury did, and I'm not gonna dispute them. Gallagher's conviction, interestingly was on the only one of the charges that would not, under military law, demand a dishonorable discharge. What Gallagher received was the sort of 'convenient' verdict and sentencing one often sees in civilian trials where, either out of a desire to just be done with a case or out of consideration for a defendants social rank , status, or past good works, a sort of 'plea deal' is made by the jury where they pass on conviction on other more serious or potentially higher penalty charges in favor of a 'token' conviction; it allows the jury to affirm a wrong or wrongs was/were committed and punish the perpetrator while freeing them of having to assess higher penalties. Its kind of like convicting someone facing multiple charges getting on the 'lesser of all their evils'...


Keep in mind, in Gallagher's case we're talking about military justice, which is very substantially different from civilian justice. The standards in military justice are far more stringent and the penalties, in comparison to civilian equivalents, are more often than not more severe. Also, the military justice system is a closed system: all the actions taken under the UCMJ are undertaken solely under military auspices; the judges are military officers, the prosecutors are military officers, the jurors are usually military members of their branch of equal rank, except for enlisted men, where the jurors can be non-coms unless the defendant requests a solely enlisted rank jury. the size of the jury cn vary depending on the nature of the proceedings, with a size of as little as three jurors to as many as twelve, as in mandatory death penalty cases. The closed system of military justice, if transposed into a civilian context, would see an accused plumber tried before a jury of fellow plumbers, a bus driver would have a jury of bus drivers, and so on. The civilian jury is intended to give a cross-section of the community's demographics, although, in practice, it usually falls to those unable to dodge a jury summons, The only close parallel to the military system in the civilian world would be some of the professional oversight associations or committees, like a Bar Association, a Medical Association, etc.


Gallagher really, in truth has gotten preferential treatment in excess of what would be afforded to other military convictees if they didn't have the aura of being a Seal about themselves; and that aura is part of the crux of the matter: being awarded an elite status and all the perqs that attend such a status also means being held to much higher moral, ethical, and performance standard than other members of the service; the individuals, such as the Seals, Green Berets, etc., are held up as being the pinnacle of duty, honor, moral rigor, obedience to and compliance with military law and tradition, and are the best 'face' of their services. As such, when they do fail to meet those standards, they can expect a heightened punitive response; the higher one gets, the longer and harder the fall...


Military justice is not just about the imposition of the UCMJ, it is als about maintaining and reinforcing the military's entire structure of discipline, respect, obedience, and unity of purpose. That is why internal military legal matters very, very rarely feel the intrusion of civilian influence. The military takes care of its own matters and the rulings of military courts are rarely often overturned in clemency pleas; senior officers are very reluctant to second guess the will of military jury or the findings of a military judge. A point can be made that military legal proceedings are not only intended to punish those convicted, but also to serve as an object lesson to deter others who may seek to violate the strict imposition of military law, order, and discipline. In Gallagher's case, he has been afforded extraordinary deference in excess of what is usually afforded convicted defendants, sending the message of, if you can whine about your case to the ears of politicians, you can thumb your nose at military justice and honor. And, the intrusion of Trump into the process flies in the face of the 'hands off' policy of the Oval Office when it comes to matters of internal military discipline and justice, unless there are egregious circumstances attending. Gallagher's case is/was not of a level to warrant such preferential attention. It should be painfully obvious Trump's entire stance in this matter is just Ol' Bone Spurs pandering to his base and hoping to get Brownie points from the Trumpettes. Trump, and, for that matter, almost any President has very little to no knowledge of the USMJ or its processes. Apart from hack political grandstanding, Trump is harming military discipline more than he's helping...


Just another instance of trump and his minions acting on matters way, way, out of their depth...


This link, from early January of 2019, written by an experienced JAG and citing another case of Trump intervention in a military justice matter, might be interesting since it discusses, far better than myself, the issues revolving around military justice and the intervention of a President as Unlawful Command Influence (I know, Trump doing something unlawful; impossible, right? ):


Trump’s Intervention in the Golsteyn Case: Judicial Independence, Military Justice or Both? --

https://www.lawfareblog.com/trumps-i...tice-or-both-0


This link goes into the subject of Unlawful Command Influence on another case in which Trump intervened, but this time to assert for a harsher penalty on a defendant:


President Trump’s Careless Rhetoric, Unlawful Command Influence, and the Bergdahl Court-Martial --

https://www.justsecurity.org/39541/p...and-influence/


Armchair General? I never would have made a good General; just wouldn't be comfortable with the expected puffery. Still, an armchair General who can solidly back themselves up with facts and cites is better than being a curbside, drive-by private who can't keep up his arguments with anything other than a couple or so sentences of generalizations and unsupported, sometimes less than accurate statements...







<O>

[Rockstar]

Oh ya I forgot about your treasure trove of facts, research and law. So let me add arm chair lawyer to your repertoire.

According to a NYT article. Chief Gallagher was found not guilty of war crimes by the military court. However he was found guilty of posing for a trophy photo which carried a maximum of 4 months in the brig. He had already spent more than that in pre-trial confinement that is when the President said enough let him go he did his time. After which the Navy suits appeared hellbent on discharging Gallagher from the service without one benefit or his Trident pin.

Looks to me like Spencer didn't give a ratz arse about good order and discipline. Instead Spencer was trying to save face and what better way to do that these days than to make it all about Trump? Also you dont need to lecture anyone here about the UCMJ or Good Order and Discipline. I'd hazard a guess and say most here at this website have all experienced it first hand.