US Politics Thread 2021-24

[Rockstar]

It was about 30 years ago when I read all three volumes of Gulag Archipelago. I just recently started to listen to it on audiobook and got to page 418, chapter 10 in volume 1 and I couldn't help but think of the current 'trial'. And no the Gulag Archipelago is not science fiction, it really happened.


"Is it true that every opposition to the Party is a struggle against
the Party?" "In general it is, factually it is." "But a struggle against
the Party cannot help but grow into a war against the Party."
"According to the logic of things-yes, it must." "And that means
that in the end, given the existence of oppositionist beliefs, any
foul deeds whatever might be perpetrated against the Party?"
"But wait a minute, none were actually committed."

"But they could have been?"

"Well, theoretically speaking." (Those are your theoreticians for
you!) "But for us the highest of all interests are those of the
Party?" "Yes, of course, of course!" "So you see, only a very fine
distinction separates us. We are required to concretize the eventu-
ality: in the interest of discrediting for the future any idea of
opposition, we are required to accept as having taken place what
could only theoretically have taken place. After all, it could
have, couldn't it?" "It could have." "And so it is necessary to
recognize as actual what was possible; that's all. It's a small phi-
losophical transition.


btw, you can find all three volumes online for free in pdf format.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

I think the key to this whole mess is, while Trump talked about fighting like hell, he also very clearly said peacefully.

Noseebutbutsee... You have to isolate the *pieces* of his speech that used words like "fight" to argue that his entire speech incited a hateful horde to rape, pillage, and murder and you have distinguish this clearly dangerous organized racist cult from all of those ideas that burned down buildings and attacked people last summer...

You aren't toeing the party line and need to schedule some time in a reeducation facility...

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

I pretty much never watch any broadcast news, or cable news, simply for the reason I don't want to see or hear the slant provided by the newsreader.

It's easier to filter that out by reading the text.

That, and I can read and parse far faster than anyone can talk on the boob tube...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

I think the key to this whole mess is, while Trump talked about fighting like hell, he also very clearly said peacefully.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poe...d-me-your-ears

[Catfish]

^ Very nice but it does not fit.
"When that the poor have cried, Caesar [Trump – you really mean that?] hath wept"
No he did not. He laughed. He never was on anybody's side but his own.

[Wolferz]

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

Trump would likely have been laughing while the capital burned.
But that's a sociopathic narcissist for you.

I have been watching the senate proceedings and I fear that the Republican senators are going to put the party above the constitution and acquit the twit in a vain effort to save face. I doubt they will be shocked when that line of thinking turns into a piece of lead rapidly inserted in their foot. Midterms are not that far off and I doubt the American people will forget a betrayal of that magnitude any time soon.
The impeachment managers have presented a very compelling case so far and after watching Mister Trump's lawyers floundering on day one, I doubt they will do any better in their defense attempt tomorrow.
Mister Trump should go ahead and keep heading south until he hits Cuba.
Maybe there he can lie his way into becoming their leader and spend the rest of his days smoking cigars and pushing Cubans around.
America fired you dude. Accept it. Get over it. Ah heck, just get lost.

[Buddahaid]

[Rockstar]

The role of Leahy, the longest serving Democrat in the U.S. Senate, is unprecedented, The New York Times reports. At the same time he’s presiding over the trial, he’ll also serve as a juror and will participate in voting, including on whether or not to convict Trump. Judge jury and executioner all rolled into one. Now that's the American dream in action!

As much as the framers of our system of government distrusted tyrannies. They extended that same distrust to popular majorities as well. The Senate was originally to function in ways that frustrated direct democracy, promoted state sovereignty and kept the House of Representatives in check. Unfortunately the 17th amendment screwed that all up and we now have what the framers feared. Mob rule, enjoy the show!

I doubt Trump will be convicted because that would require 2/3rds majority (17 republicans and all the democrats) But, I could be wrong but I dont see it happening. However what I do see, is Trump being barred from running for office in the future. All that is required for that is a simple majority senate vote.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

The role of Leahy, the longest serving Democrat in the U.S. Senate, is unprecedented, The New York Times reports. At the same time he’s presiding over the trial, he’ll also serve as a juror and will participate in voting, including on whether or not to convict Trump. Judge jury and executioner all rolled into one. Now that's the American dream in action!

As much as the framers of our system of government distrusted tyrannies. They extended that same distrust to popular majorities as well. The Senate was originally to function in ways that frustrated direct democracy, promoted state sovereignty and kept the House of Representatives in check. Unfortunately the 17th amendment screwed that all up and we now have what the framers feared. Mob rule, enjoy the show!

I doubt Trump will be convicted because that would require 2/3rds majority (17 republicans and all the democrats) But, I could be wrong but I dont see it happening. However what I do see, is Trump being barred from running for office in the future. All that is required for that is a simple majority senate vote.

Somebody explain how they could possibly keep him from running again - the parties are private clubs. A third party can run him.

[Wolferz]

Actually, Rockstar,
Conviction only requires 2/3 of the senators who are present at the time of the vote.
Many of the Republican senators could distance themselves from any yes vote for conviction by simply not showing up. Then the Democrats can slam dunk the Trump twice in one day and the GOP'ers can go back to finger pointing and blaming all the problems on everyone but themselves.
Sounds like my kids when they were young.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ Very nice but it does not fit.
"When that the poor have cried, Caesar [Trump – you really mean that?] hath wept"
No he did not. He laughed. He never was on anybody's side but his own.

Its not about the content, but a method, a trick, a pattern. One can say one thing in words - and right by that mean exactly the opposite of it. One can not speak out a verbal command - and nevertheless leave no doubt that that command is what one is giving.



That's what this speech is so world-famous for.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Actually, Rockstar,
Conviction only requires 2/3 of the senators who are present at the time of the vote.
Many of the Republican senators could distance themselves from any yes vote for conviction by simply not showing up. Then the Democrats can slam dunk the Trump twice in one day and the GOP'ers can go back to finger pointing and blaming all the problems on everyone but themselves.
Sounds like my kids when they were young.

I don't know maybe. But the popular vote percentage was 51.3% President Biden 46.8% Trump with third party making up the rest. Considering the impeachment hearing is a purely political proceeding. That's too close a margin for any Senator on either side to just sit it out, so I'm guessing everyone will be there. Though if Trump were to run for office I'd rather other politicians persuade voters to not vote for Trump based on their merits, policies and qualities instead of this dog and pony show. I think this is just deepening the divide.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I don't know maybe. But the popular vote percentage was 51.3% President Biden 46.8% Trump with third party making up the rest. Considering the impeachment hearing is a purely political proceeding. That's too close a margin for any Senator on either side to just sit it out, so I'm guessing everyone will be there. Though if Trump were to run for office I'd rather other politicians persuade voters to not vote for Trump based on their merits, policies and qualities instead of this dog and pony show. I think this is just deepening the divide.

For me the elephant in the room now is just what that percentage in favor of Trump's popular vote is after 1/6/2021? I would wager it has slipped considerably.

[Rockstar]

Now I don't hold him responsible for the unlawful actions of others, I just don't. But my opinion of him changed when without any evidence he brought discredit to the election process and transfer of power. Of all the things that has happened that ticked me off. So you might be right. But I tellya looking around and listening to others where I live doesn't seem much has changed its still all about team D and team R.

[MaDef]

What about team "I", who don't really care what team "D" or "R" think.