Wuhan virus 2020

[Skybird]

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...ainst-n1273114

Vaccines aren't meant to prevent infection. Their strength is in preventing the infection from making people sick and landing them in the hospital.

Most breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated people tend to be mild or to occur without symptoms. What remains unknown is whether an unsuspecting carrier can spread the virus to vulnerable people, such as the unvaccinated, children under age 12 or those with compromised immune systems.

Goodman said infected people who have been fully vaccinated probably have less virus in their system and therefore are probably less likely to transmit it to others. The time person is contagious is also probably shorter with vaccination, he said.

It's unlikely that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will reinstate recommendations to wear masks. But because of the unknown level of transmissibility of delta among fully vaccinated people, experts said in interviews that they continue to wear masks indoors when they are around people they don't know, such as in grocery stores or movie theaters or on public transportation.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Skybird

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...ainst-n1273114

Complete garbage...

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/vpd-vac-basics.html

"Vaccines contain the same germs that cause disease. (For example, measles vaccine contains measles virus, and Hib vaccine contains Hib bacteria.) But they have been either killed or weakened to the point that they don’t make you sick. Some vaccines contain only a part of the disease germ.

A vaccine stimulates your immune system to produce antibodies, exactly like it would if you were exposed to the disease. After getting vaccinated, you develop immunity to that disease, without having to get the disease first.

This is what makes vaccines such powerful medicine. Unlike most medicines, which treat or cure diseases, vaccines prevent them."

Note that last sentence from the CDC website which very clearly states that vaccines prevent infection. So suddenly the covid vaccines *aren't* the same as other vaccines? Or they're not really vaccines at all. Which is it?

[Skybird]

^
Before the immune system can fight a germ invading the system, the invasion actually must have taken place. That invasion is what is called "infection". When nothing has happenednd and no infection took place - the immune system does nothing. And how could it and why should it...? If nothing happened...? You never get a fire alarm if there is no fire. The question for the reaction time of the fire brigade does not even rise.

An experienced fire brigade would have short reaction time. An unexperienced would have longer reaction time. Maybe too long to save the bruning building. So, its good to have an experienced one. One that knows what its doing, and how it gets done best, and quickest.

An immunity system meeting a germ for the first time, needs time to learn about, adapt to and build weapons tailored against that germ. The symptoms thus have time to build up, and the invading army can grow in size meanwhile. And sometimes its enough time to kill the organism that got infected.

There are three main groups of antibodies actually fighting the germs, the one attacks the germ directly, the other the remains of it, and the third attacks whole body cells that have been infected by the attacking germs. These are the T- and B-lymphocytes and the macrophages.

Some of these cells remain active after the war has been won and the attackign germs have been defeated and wiped out. These cells stand active guard and run patrols and serve as a living memory of the pattern of the attacking germs. If that germ shows up again, they react immediately, both ringing the alarm and carrying out first attacks, since they know the attacker and must not wonder what that foreign new thing is, and trigger a much quicker reaction by the immune system.

An infection always takes place. The question is about the reaction time of the immune system. Without immunity by former disease or vaccination, the reaction time is long. With immunity, it is short.

Now what does it mean if a vaccination is said to leave the vaccinated potentially infectous for others? It means the carrier has not sufficient numbers of attacking germs to become overwhelmed himself, since his system fights them, but he still has them in sufficiently high numbers so to spread the germs onto others. But likely he spreads them by reduced numbers, sinc ehis own system already thins the attackers out. Some vaccines are so potent that they make short process of an invading army of germs and these germs then do not live long enough in the infected body to jump from there to somebody else, or to lead to the forming of symptoms. Other vaccines are less potent, they prevent mostly that the vaccinated becomes ill himself (building symptoms), but cannot prevent the numbers being supressed so fast and effectively that the germ cannot reach other people. The Corona vaccines we talk of, seem to be like this, they tell the body how to react quickly (immune system comes to life), and this happens fast enough that numbers of germs go down quickly - but not that much and fast that there are no numbers from begining anymore. The enemy gets sloauhgtered while he lands on the beach. But a landing operation takes place. Just, that it fails. We know that the virus load on first infection with Sars-Cov 2 is one of several factors for the probability to build strong symptoms. Bringing the virus load down that an infected person can bring onto others, thus is a benefit. It means the invading army on the beach is not big enough to acchieve a breakthrough and establish a breach. It shifts chances in the defenders' favour, therefore. Maybe the battle on the beach is so quiuckly iver and so hopeless for the attacker, that you do not even notice that it happened. That is the ideal case of a vaccination. But it is not always this ideal.

Becoming infected, being infectous for others, and forming symptoms oneself that make oneself feel miserable, are three very different things. Or better, three different levels of intensity of the infection. But an infection there is ALWAYS. Getting vaccinated does not mean you eat soap and clean yourself inside and then are so sterile that no germ can enter the outer barrier of your system. The world always reaches you and reaches into you. It means you invest money into your armed forces, have better gear, weapons, training, and an intel service in tip top shape. It does not mean that peace will last forever. It means that if war finds you, you will fight better, sharper, and more successful.

Pull that head out of the sand. Tunnelvision is said to get cured from doing so in no time.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Skybird

^
Before the immune system can fight a germ invading the system, the invasion actually must have taken place. That invasion is what is called "infection". When nothing has happenednd and no infection took place - the immune system does nothing. And how could it and why should it...? If nothing happened...? You never get a fire alarm if there is no fire. The question for the reaction time of the fire brigade does not even rise.

An experienced fire brigade would have short reaction time. An unexperienced would have longer reaction time. Maybe too long to save the bruning building. So, its good to have an experienced one. One that knows what its doing, and how it gets done best, and quickest.

An immunity system meeting a germ for the first time, needs time to learn about, adapt to and build weapons tailored against that germ. The symptoms thus have time to build up, and the invading army can grow in size meanwhile. And sometimes its enough time to kill the organism that got infected.

There are three main groups of antibodies actually fighting the germs, the one attacks the germ directly, the other the remains of it, and the third attacks whole body cells that have been infected by the attacking germs. These are the T- and B-lymphocytes and the macrophages.

Some of these cells remain active after the war has been won and the attackign germs have been defeated and wiped out. These cells stand active guard and run patrols and serve as a living memory of the pattern of the attacking germs. If that germ shows up again, they react immediately, both ringing the alarm and carrying out first attacks, since they know the attacker and must not wonder what that foreign new thing is, and trigger a much quicker reaction by the immune system.

An infection always takes place. The question is about the reaction time of the immune system. Without immunity by former disease or vaccination, the reaction time is long. With immunity, it is short.

Now what does it mean if a vaccination is said to leave the vaccinated potentially infectous for others? It means the carrier has not sufficient numbers of attacking germs to become overwhelmed himself, since his system fights them, but he still has them in sufficiently high numbers so to spread the germs onto others. But likely he spreads them by reduced numbers, sinc ehis own system already thins the attackers out. Some vaccines are so potent that they make short process of an invading army of germs and these germs then do not live long enough in the infected body to jump from there to somebody else, or to lead to the forming of symptoms. Other vaccines are less potent, they prevent mostly that the vaccinated becomes ill himself (building symptoms), but cannot prevent the numbers being supressed so fast and effectively that the germ cannot reach other people. The Corona vaccines we talk of, seem to be like this, they tell the body how to react quickly (immune system comes to life), and this happens fast enough that numbers of germs go down quickly - but not that much and fast that there are no numbers from begining anymore. The enemy gets sloauhgtered while he lands on the beach. But a landing operation takes place. Just, that it fails. We know that the virus load on first infection with Sars-Cov 2 is one of several factors for the probability to build strong symptoms. Bringing the virus load down that an infected person can bring onto others, thus is a benefit. It means the invading army on the beach is not big enough to acchieve a breakthrough and establish a breach. It shifts chances in the defenders' favour, therefore. Maybe the battle on the beach is so quiuckly iver and so hopeless for the attacker, that you do not even notice that it happened. That is the ideal case of a vaccination. But it is not always this ideal.

Becoming infected, being infectous for others, and forming symptoms oneself that make oneself feel miserable, are three very different things. Or better, three different levels of intensity of the infection. But an infection there is ALWAYS. Getting vaccinated does not mean you eat soap and clean yourself inside and then are so sterile that no germ can enter the outer barrier of your system. The world always reaches you and reaches into you. It means you invest money into your armed forces, have better gear, weapons, training, and an intel service in tip top shape. It does not mean that peace will last forever. It means that if war finds you, you will fight better, sharper, and more successful.

Pull that head out of the sand. Tunnelvision is said to get cured from doing so in no time.

You fail to account for the misleading reporting 8ntended to elicit a specific response from the public via use of a scientific term as vernacular. To the average person, infection = disease.

More importantly, for no other virus in the history of disease or vaccination have we ever cared about vaccinated people or those previously infected and recovered then catching the same virus again as a vector of infectivity to others. We already know that people previously infected by other coronaviruses have an immune response (even if partial) to covid. We know that someone who is asymptomatic or may have mild symptoms (regardless of due to prior infection with other strains or due to vaccines) are strongly likely to not infect others.

Lastly, between those who were vaccinated and those who were previously infected and recovered (which is 99+% of those infected, most of whom we'll never know were infected), in most places, they've effectively reached herd immunity for the most virulent original strains while the less virulent newer strains are already showing themselves to be less likely to lead to a fatal outcome, even if more infectious (which is exactly what you'd expect to see with a virus that is going to be endemic and causing cold symptoms after the initial outbreak).

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

Complete garbage... [...]
So suddenly the covid vaccines *aren't* the same as other vaccines? Or they're not really vaccines at all. Which is it?

There are two kinds off vaccines against covid, the vector one, and the mrna vaccine. The second type does not infect but simulates the effect of an infection already providing t-cells with a building plan with information how to produce antibodies, an information that usually would only be there if you had been infected. You can read it all on the net, everywhere.
Regarding the rest you write i wonder how you come to such conclusions.

[Buddahaid]

Funny how those in the US who are getting hospitalized now are people who haven't been vaccinated. I wonder if there's a connection......

[Moonlight]

Now you mention it I think you're onto something, there was a lot of migrants from India living in England who were refusing to be vaccinated and they caught this new Delta variant, mind you, that was our governments fault for letting the infected enter the country in the first place, but it's still a strange one, maybe it'll all come out in the inquiry they're going to have.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Catfish

There are two kinds off vaccines against covid, the vector one, and the mrna vaccine. The second type does not infect but simulates the effect of an infection already providing t-cells with a building plan with information how to produce antibodies, an information that usually would only be there if you had been infected. You can read it all on the net, everywhere.
Regarding the rest you write i wonder how you come to such conclusions.

I'm well aware there are multiple types of vaccinations. Both do the same thing: provide the body the ability to create spike proteins. As such, they are simulating an infection by covid to allow your immune system to generate antibodies to the spike protein so if you are infected with the real virus, your immune system will do its job since it already recognizes the spike protein as something to defend against.

My conclusions come from the fact that the messaging in that article from NBC is a confused and contradictory mess:
1. CDC isn't going to recommend masking again, but "experts" say they will continue to do so amongst strangers even though they are vaccinated.

2. Delta is super scary even though hospitalizations aren't jumping up like they did last year. And even then, we know that the vast majority (98+%) of infectees never required hospitalization from the original strains, let alone the new ones

3. Vaccines aren't preventing infection but they're all mild cases, so not a big deal.

4. Some studies say vaccines are still effective at preventing serious illness, but Israeli studies show that the new strains can evade them.

5. Even endemic cold viruses can lead to pneumonia and potential death for the immunocompromised and feeble.

6. They're doing an apples-to-oranges comparison of the Indian strain vs. original strains. They should be looking only at those who aren't vaccinated to determine IFR and CFR as compared to original strains.

So - the new variants aren't really stopped by a vaccine that is less than a year in use, they may just make symptoms less severe... The new strains are less likely to cause serious illness requiring hospitalization than the original strains - with the primary symptoms being a sore throat, headache, and runny nose.

All of this effort to try to convince people to get a vaccination that may already be ineffective against a virus that has mutated to the point that it is resulting in cold symptoms. *Exactly* like every other virus that causes colds. There is a reason why we've never bothered to try and find a universal cold virus vaccine and why the annual flu vaccine has never had greater than 60% efficacy (on average around 45% year-over-year). That reason is the same reason why this coronavirus will become like every other coronavirus that has spread sufficiently far and wide - the mutations that selectively result in viruses suited to infect as many as possible while killing as few as possible so as to accomplish their only function: replication.

That's all viruses "want" to do: find a living host to take over and replicate - while not killing days host so that they can infect others, replicating exponentially.

[mapuc]

About the discussion on our different type of vaccines.

My elderly sister is suffering from a special heart disease and each year before the flu season starts she get a shot of that years influenza vaccine.

Almost every year she gets infected by the flu, but she does not get very ill, like having high fever or pain all over the body. It's like she does not notice it(have been infected)

One year the influenza mutated and the vaccine she got became obsolete she was very sick that year.

Markus

[August]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Funny how those in the US who are getting hospitalized now are people who haven't been vaccinated. I wonder if there's a connection......

Maybe, but they are a tiny percentage, of a tiny percentage, of only about a third of the population, and nearly all of them had co-morbidities of some kind that might have landed them in the hospital anyways, so if there is a connection it's probably not the one you hope.

[Catfish]

In a way it will be a kind of Darwin award

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by August

Maybe, but they are a tiny percentage, of a tiny percentage, of only about a third of the population, and nearly all of them had co-morbidities of some kind that might have landed them in the hospital anyways, so if there is a connection it's probably not the one you hope.

Correlation, causality...

I think that we would have already been through this debacle in the US if we had actual leaders in government who were honest. Imagine if we had honest leaders, what each of the following could have been instead of what we actually got.

No, masks are not effective. It took an FOIA request to get a dump of Fauci's emails almost a year later from where he admits that.

No, most people will not be hospitalized or die from covid. It takes honest brokers of statistical data to have dropped through the datasets to counteract the narrative. At one point, people surveyed believed 33 million Americans died from covid...

Yes, there are risks associated with unproven vaccines. For the older people, the risk is worth it. For kids, not worth the risk.

Flatten the curve. The area under that curve (i e. number of infected) is the same. The only difference is how long you take to reach that number (i.e. lockdowns only increased the time to reach that number, prolonging everyone's misery).

Governors who actually killed the most vulnerable by sending infected people into nursing homes. All while crying for federal aid. Never mind that using vents actually increased deaths. Never mind that hospitals weren't actually overwhelmed even as news crews selectively edited footage to make it appear they were.

I'd urge anyone to read the following and then see if they still hold the same beliefs.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/n...ality-gutentag

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

In a way it will be a kind of Darwin award

That must please you!

[Skybird]

https://translate.google.com/transla..._13474357.html


Good how things are put together in this article.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Skybird

https://translate.google.com/transla..._13474357.html


Good how things are put together in this article.

This isn't a bad article. It clearly puts into perspective that hospitalizations and deaths are *miniscule* as compared to the number of infections.

The only flaw in the article is it doesn't drive into the percentage of infected, hospitalized, and dead that are vaccinated or not.