UK Politics Thread

[Skybird]

Two more years of this mess...? Are they serious...???

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...sources-reveal

I summarise that article in brief: make the British politicians so tired of getting called to vote on MP's plan that sometime during 21 more months of getting asked to vote every couple of weeks they become so tired of it that they finally let May have her pro-EU plan just to get over with it and being done with it.

If you do not get the vote you wanted to have, make them vote again and again until they are exhgausted and chnage their mind in favour of your demanded outcome. Has worked several times in the EU's past 15 years or so.


Why shortening agony when it is so much fun...

[STEED]

I can not see a no deal situation unless that washout of a PM has decided on final revenge against everyone against her. Further talks have done nothing apart from damaging the country with "What the heck is going on" and causing more friction from top to bottom. The whole country is getting fed up with this situation and dragging it on is a bad move.

Here is what we should do..

1. Stay in the EU
2. Get rid of that lot of useless career MP's and change the system from top to bottom.
3. Prepare the UK for a fast exit out the EU just before the collapse in the next 50 years.
4. Get tough on the EU and stick it to them.
5. Jim can post can good idea.

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by STEED

3. Prepare the UK for a fast exit out the EU just before the collapse in the next 50 years.

50 years? I don't even give the USA 50 years.

[mapuc]

I have a feeling.
if it's based on my standpoint regarding EU or not I can't say

The feeling is that there are forces in EU and in England who have been working for a UK-entry to EU and not an exit which was planned after the referendum.

If it's based on my standpoint on EU and the hope the Brexit will be the first of many leaving EU, then this feeling is just an imagination of mine.

Markus

[skidman]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I summarise that article in brief: make the British politicians so tired of getting called to vote on MP's plan that sometime during 21 more months of getting asked to vote every couple of weeks they become so tired of it that they finally let May have her pro-EU plan just to get over with it and being done with it.

If you do not get the vote you wanted to have, make them vote again and again until they are exhgausted and chnage their mind in favour of your demanded outcome. Has worked several times in the EU's past 15 years or so.

Rubbish. Let's have a look at the facts: Only the UK can ask for an extension. This is part of the article 50 framework. Wether or not it is granted is up to the 27. So again the ball is in the British half of the pitch (and has been there for 21 months now). The EU's position has been very clear right from the start: We respect the vote of the British people and we will of course respect any decision made by the HOC: Westminster, make up your mind. And nothing happened.

You are oversimplifying, and may I say, you are doing it in a paranoid and childish way, as usual.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ And Lassen and you forgot the laws being forced up on the UK by the EU! And the unelected bureaucrats! And the rest of this dumb claptrap Farage and his idiot friends like Rupert Murdoch and Arron Banks try to perpetrate to what they call the dumb masses.

So you are told that 80% of your laws are imposed by unelected foreign bureaucracy, you hear that the EU costs the UK millions of pounds per day for the privilege, the EU is a dictatorship run by one party (lmao), makes plans for the economy like the soviet union did, and you are getting apoplectic.

Certain politicians and several newspapers repeat this claptrap and lies again and again to the British people. And they believe it! And it is a load of nonsense!

Catfish will all due respect, I think you need to read a bit further on how the EU operates (how its structured) and how little it can be held to account on its legislation. Plus what its long term goals and vision are. Because what the EU is today and has been for past few decades is far from the finished project.

Maybe also look in to its past history particularly its response to the 2009 crisis. Who did it protect and who did it punish back then?
Id also urge you look into Articles 11 and 13.

I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits - it does, but you act as though its beyond criticism. Nothing is.
Also Skys prediction that the EU could break up in 5 years is not actually quite as outlandish as it sounds, though personally I think it will last alot longer than that. But the EU is in a very real financial, cultural and existential wobble right now. With no real solutions in sight. The very fact that its problems and challenges are so multi faceted, doesn't bode too well - its getting hit from several angles at once.

Its biggest existential problems are:
1) it has half its member states running on fumes in terms of finance. (heavily in debt)
2) The west in general seems to be some what losing its appetite for more globalism/internationalism. (which is a pretty core value of the EU)
3) Its becoming increasingly harder to reconcile the differences between its member states as the political spectrum widens further out towards the fringes of the Left and the Right.
4) Its current leaders are idealists/visionaries who are very reluctant to make any concessions or compromises, so reform doesn't look too viable at present.
5) Its Rivals, emerging economic blocks else where in the world, threaten to wipe the floor with the EU on global trade.

China and india are exploding, South America and Even Africa are also not as far behind as many think. remember that all of them have one thing the west doesn't, sustainable population replacement and solid birth rates. We essentially import migrants to keep our work force strong and competitive - and to fund our aging populations though taxation.

An this is what makes the far left and far right solutions so laughable,
The far right would cut /restrict of our immigration which would eventually tank our economy.
The far left would seize/state regulate our economy which would eventually tank our skilled immigration.
Oh the irony.

Through out history all empires and Unions fall eventually. usually though stubbornness and rapid over expansion - sound familiar?
You see, its biggest flaw of of all is perhaps that its run by human beings, we don't have a very good track record of sustaining these things y'know?

[Georg Lassen]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Do you seriously believe that?

Yes and so do many people working in internal and external security that I know.

[Georg Lassen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

A continental superstate in the first will mean

1. centralism,
2. planned economy,
3. dictatorship,
4. one-party-rule with only alibi-diversity polishing the shine on the surface,
5. nightmare levels of corruption,
6. blossoming nepotism,
7. massive, though hidden expropriation and financial abuse of the masses,

and finally (and hopefully!!):

8. unrest, uprise and civil war to destroy this order.

Needless to say: such totalitarianism always means that the individual means nothing and will get sacrificed unscrupolously for the claimed cause of the collective and namely: the state and its claimed state'S reason.

Those being in power then, already today see themselves and act as if they were a new aristocratric superclass that ownes people and is so to speak: God-wanted to rule so that even votings against them must not be respected by them. Often prominent names even shamlessly frankly admit that they intend to bypass rules and not obey laws and treaties, if they see fit. There never was a public uproar over any such statements so far. The brainwashing of the regime seems to work remarkably well already. Framing, and relentless propagandistic bombardement in all mainstream media - do work, and function well.

I prefer to follow LaoTse and getting the evil dealt with while it still is small. Well, not so small anymore, I fear, but maybe smaller than the 7.point description I just gave above.

Though the next wave of demons already assemble at the exit gates of hell:
https://translate.google.de/translat...fonds_der_welt

The author was formerly a freedom activist in the GDR and one of the most proiminent public faces of the active movement in the GDR that brought down the regime. Only to get the even bigger mess there now is.

One thing they have not considered much is that people will also emigrate out, many that are qualified would choose for example USA or Australia over EU if they had to choose between federations.


They would need to set up the police state and borders fast to keep the people in, like in all the previous societies based on some utopia.

[Georg Lassen]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ And Lassen and you forgot the laws being forced up on the UK by the EU! And the unelected bureaucrats! And the rest of this dumb claptrap Farage and his idiot friends like Rupert Murdoch and Arron Banks try to perpetrate to what they call the dumb masses.

So you are told that 80% of your laws are imposed by unelected foreign bureaucracy, you hear that the EU costs the UK millions of pounds per day for the privilege, the EU is a dictatorship run by one party (lmao), makes plans for the economy like the soviet union did, and you are getting apoplectic.

Certain politicians and several newspapers repeat this claptrap and lies again and again to the British people. And they believe it! And it is a load of nonsense!

Compared to the USA and USSR the EU is closer to the latter by a large margin.

[Catfish]

@Ju88: Of course you are right. There are problems and the EU needs a lot of reforming, if it can even be helped anymore. I am just getting sick and tired of people echoing the whole far-right Bannon and Farage claptrap published in media like Breitbart, Fox, The Sun, The Express, the german Bild and those other usual suspects, without individually having any own idea or even the pretense to have informed themselves before they spread their opinonated hate, when the whole internals of the EU can be openly viewed, including all problems and challenges, and successes.
But conspiracies and endless lamenting are so much more fun!

Quote Ju88:

But the EU is in a very real financial, cultural and existential wobble right now. With no real solutions in sight. The very fact that its problems and challenges are so multi faceted, doesn't bode too well - its getting hit from several angles at once.

The EU is under attack from the far right not only because of facts or real existing problems, but for a major part because it is free in almost every aspect and has become a real worldwide competitor, with free trade and free borders, and nationalists hate that. Like Russia i might say. Others hate it because it means real competition, and a lot of others are just bored with a good life searching some sense for themselves, and certain media give them a reason and a target to blame.

Of course the Eu has problems, it consists of nations that fought each other to death not long ago, and as we see nationalistic chauvinism is not dead (Hungary, Romania, Poland, Turkey, now Italy blaming all on the EU (remember this bridge collapsing due to neglected maintenance? Italy's right wing immediately blamed it on the EU - when it was the right wing party's president who stopped maintaining bridges in Italy some years before. So again, BULL!), not to forget brexit and so on).

Do you think life will be better in a Europe without the EU? Really?
Think of who wants to destroy the EU, and why.

Originally Posted by Georg Lassen

Compared to the USA and USSR the EU is closer to the latter by a large margin.

Yeah and it is so much better to live and work there, than in the EU
Once again certain people do not differ between a social democracy and socialism/communism?

Yes the far right is rising again, using "corruption", alleged "unfair treatment" towards them and terrorism as arguments to hide their racism and hate. It is not very well hidden but it seems to work good enough for a lot of people who "inform" themselves via tabloids and petty slogans.
(aww i get tears in my eyes when i think of poor Farage and Bannon, and Trump - they would never lie or just live out their hate)

The right wing uses everything in their urge to destroy the EU. Successes and humanitarion efforts are described as "weak", and China and Russia are the new heralds of a brave new world while indeed going back to isolated, sealed-off states.
Maybe it is only me but no i do not like their political systems at all!

Ok so maybe you can be "lucky" soon and have isolated, sealed off borders again, with nations that prefer war to trade. Have fun, i hope it hits you right between the eyes when it happens. Winter war anyone?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by STEED

1. Stay in the EU
2. Get rid of that lot of useless career MP's and change the system from top to bottom.

That is a contradiction. You cannot have the one with the other. The EU is the master safeguard to make sure the system and its personnel do not get changed "top to bottom".
I would even say that is the primary reason for the forming of the EU in its modern post-ECC format. The ECC is a self-serving service for the political caste and its growing army of support regulators, bureaucrcrats and lawgivers that then must be adopted by national parliaments. With an innocent face, of course: "See, we have no choice, we must wave this through, EU rules demand that we do." Over 80 percent or so of new national laws are due to demands by Brussels, national parliaments have no say on them, nor can governments reject them. They can delay them by ignoring them - which is a breaking of EU law again.

Most of a nation's policy today already gets made in Brussel. And that is so sicne many years already. One of the reasons why many Britons back then decided for No in the referendum. The EU bureaucracy procides an endless stream of regulations and laws that mostly get brought up and implemented in the background, hardly being noticed by public and media.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] Over 80 percent or so of new national laws are due to demands by Brussels,

wrong.

national parliaments have no say on them

wrong.

nor can governments reject them.

wrong.

Most of a nation's policy today already gets made in Brussel.

wrong.


And the usual bunch of other lies.


There are absolutely no secret plans and no goal of creating a United States of Europe. The process has been entirely transparent and has involved local politicians of all parties. There are no transnational regional assemblies.
I wish most were not so reluctant and polite towards all the lies being thrown, but instead punch a direct factual answer in the face of those liars.

What is true unfortunately is that the next EU elections will change everything. The big picture will be a continent being pulled rightwards by authoritarian nationalist movements, by a millionaire-owned media for whom racism is a money-spinner, and by the information wars waged by Trump and Putin supporters. I almost wish it all goes down the drain, and that it all explodes into the very faces who now propagate all that, and who have themselves been fooled in a time when information was still available.

[Jimbuna]

I believe one of the EU concerns, should an extention be granted is the possibility that a large number of Farage clones will be elected into the European Parliament and bring with them much mischief.

May is clearly running down the clock in an effort into panicking MP's into voting for her deal rather than falling off a cliff edge.

I believe this to be a position of her own making, perhaps not initially intentionally but either way it is what it is.

[STEED]

Forget Brexit time for a revolution in British politics it's time for the masses to wake up and bin this rotten out of date system for a system that works for us the voter.

STOP VOTING FOR THE SAME OLD WORN OUT WAST OF TIME PARTYS.

If we are still in the EU at the time of the EU elections I will not be wasting my time time bothering to vote, I got better things to do. And that goes for all elections.

[Jimbuna]

Wash, rinse. repeat. Wash, rinse, repeat.