Iron Coffins arrived...just in the nick of time

Curval · 12-08-05, 06:39 PM

Two things happened to me today:

1. I made last minute reservations to fly to Mumbai via London, on Sunday...on business

2. My copy of Iron Coffins arrived.

Sweet.

I probably should have bought another book though...I'm gonna finnish IC on the first leg.

Dowly · 12-08-05, 06:43 PM

I`m still waiting for my copy. I ordered it on last thursday. It shouldÂ´ve been here already.

supersloth · 12-08-05, 06:59 PM

incidently, im just finishing this book up. hang on cause your in for one hell of a ride

MarkT79 · 12-08-05, 07:39 PM

Excellent book, Mine is missing pages 128-161 but I just carried on reading and didn't bother returning it because enjoyed the rest of the book so much. You can learn quite a bit to help you play well at SH3. It could also be made into a good film, Someone send Wolfgang Pieterson a copy :P

Curval · 12-08-05, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkT79

Mine is missing pages 128-161 but I just carried on reading and didn't bother returning it because enjoyed the rest of the book so much.

I just RAN to check my copy. Whew...pages 128-161 are there.

Camaero · 12-08-05, 10:30 PM

Thats strange! I just ordered mine today! Just found it on amazon.com and thought it looked good.

benetofski · 12-08-05, 10:48 PM

Not wishing to 'poop on your cornflakes' there is, as I am sure you are aware, both fact and fiction out there in the literary world, including u-boat accounts and stories. U-boat scholars should be able to discern between or question the differences at some stage....

I have a copy of 'Iron Coffins' by Werner (which I honestly admit is an enjoyable read) however it is fairly well known that the book was written with some degree of 'poetic licence' and 'cut and paste' from 'others' war patrols - steered towards an audience unable (generally) to disprove Werner's own (personal account) story from non-fiction...

The books 'forward' - written by Edward L. Beach (USN retd) even admits that he only knows of Werner through 'his story' .

Perhaps Beaches' own story would have been a more factual one?

There is an interesting (Iron Coffins) book overview by Michael Hadley (Professor of Germanic studies, University of Victoria and author of several well researched books including U-Boats against Canada, 'A Nations Navy', Tin Pots and Pirate Ships and 'Count not the Dead.

Basing his study on some two-hundred-and-fifty German novels, memoirs, fictionalized histories, and films (including Das Boot), Michael Hadley examines the popular image of the German submarine (refering to 'Count not the Dead) and weighs the values, purposes, and perceptions of German writers and film makers.

Here it is:

Excerpt from â€œCount not the Deadâ€, by M.Hadley

On closer examination, however, â€œIron Coffinsâ€ proved to be one of the worst distortions of the postwar period. It is, in fact, just as propaganÂdistic in its own way as u-boat books that had appeared during the war.

Jurgen Rohwer, Germany's premier naval historian, savaged the book in a scathing review. "If one wanted to underline the factual errors [in red], almost every page would be like a blood bath," he observed. On the basis of documentary evidence - some of which consisted of reports submitted by Werner himself during his wartime service - Rohwer condemned the book as sheer hyprocisy. Werner had spliced other submariners' achievements onto his own record, had wildly exaggerated circumstances and events, did not have access to witnesses on whom he claimed to draw, invented orders that never existed, and distorted statistics and records - all to sustain his charge that the naval leadership had irresponsibly "fuelled up" submariners to undertake suicidal missions.

Werner's book was motivated less by a sense of duty towards his fallen comrades than by cheap sensationalism in the attempt to make a literary hit. By this time, of course, Werner was already enjoying major sales on two continents.

Confiding to a former Crew-Kamerad in 1974, Werner commented on his book's continuing success. It had appeared in fourteen counÂtries including Japan. It had given rise to tours across the United States for some Tv and radio interviews, and lectures at schools, univerÂsities, and naval bases. He had become, in effect, the paramount image-maker: "I was thus in the extraordinary position of informing our former opponents about the truth of our epic struggle. I know I have done more for the esteem of our U-Boat Arm and its men than all those little pen-pushers together.

Significantly, the Association of German Submariners had fully supported the findings of Jurgen Rohwer's debunking review; it had dissociated itself from any claims in the memoir and had rejected Werner's "hack-work as totally without foundation." Fortunately for Werner, however, his fame and his mesÂsage outlived the review.

However, as I said earlier - an enjoyable read!

Dowly · 12-09-05, 08:25 AM

Yay! I got my copy today!

donw · 12-09-05, 10:14 AM

I got mine a few days ago...(10.73 on Amazon)
had it read that 1st night...
really enjoyed it...regardless of any "distortions"

If anyone is interested in buying it from me for the same price...I'll pass it along

CptGrayWolf · 12-09-05, 11:25 AM

What's all this 'ordering books' about? Don't you guys have book stores in your city?
And yes, Iron Coffins has taken a few hits from 'experts', saying the book is full of errors.
I did find it curious when Werner simply states how he brought down a plane all by himself with his water cooled WW1 machine gun

!
Nevertheless, Iron Coffin is a great book, and even if he gets a few factual numbers wrong, he still knows what war smells and looks like and this he describes with great skill.

Curval · 12-09-05, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptGrayWolf

What's all this 'ordering books' about? Don't you guys have book stores in your city?

Well, I don't want to speak for anyone else, but the only way I would be able to find a book on submarines would be to buy it online. Very little selection in Bermuda's book stores.

Having said that...I was in Toronto a couple of months ago and went to the World's Biggest Book Store. What a JOKE! Not ONE book on U-Boats...not flipping one. Every title I mentioned the clerk at his computer would say "Uhhh...we have to order that." World's biggest POS bookstore.

Venatore · 12-09-05, 06:46 PM

both sides had amazing people, and this is another example.

Venatore

ironkross · 12-09-05, 09:46 PM

When I read it there were many times I found some of the passages a little too hard to believe. The escapes from certain death that recurred over and over started to make me wonder. I enjoyed reading the book tho.

turbidite · 12-10-05, 03:05 PM

The main interest of Werner's book is the fact that it mixes well patrol time with leave time

and involves you much more in the war than other books (except Steel Boat, Iron Hearts about

u-505). This is this kind of feeling that I miss in current simulations and that was partially present

in AOD.

I probably look like the devil's advocate but iron coffins is the book I find myself returning to each

time I want a uboat fix.

For the curious you can look at the crew list at uboatwaffe.net and find Werner's friends that

disappeared at various time during the war - it is really a weird feeling to read about them and

see their pictures and then a line like this :

Gerloff Gunter Lt.z.S 15.10.1921 14.04.1943 U-526+
lost near Lorient

Forget about the nitpick and enjoy the reading

Dowly · 12-11-05, 07:02 AM

When was Iron Coffins made? IÂ´ve found lots of similarities to the Das Boot. Did Petersen make some of the things from the book?

i.e. the human chain to move the water, chlorine gas filling up the boat etc. reminded me lots of Das Boot.

12-08-05, 06:39 PM	#1
Curval Navy Dude Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 177 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Iron Coffins arrived...just in the nick of time Two things happened to me today: 1. I made last minute reservations to fly to Mumbai via London, on Sunday...on business 2. My copy of Iron Coffins arrived. Sweet. I probably should have bought another book though...I'm gonna finnish IC on the first leg.

12-08-05, 10:30 PM	#6
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Thats strange! I just ordered mine today! Just found it on amazon.com and thought it looked good. __________________

12-08-05, 10:48 PM	#7
benetofski Helmsman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Port Perry, Canada Posts: 106 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Not wishing to 'poop on your cornflakes' there is, as I am sure you are aware, both fact and fiction out there in the literary world, including u-boat accounts and stories. U-boat scholars should be able to discern between or question the differences at some stage.... I have a copy of 'Iron Coffins' by Werner (which I honestly admit is an enjoyable read) however it is fairly well known that the book was written with some degree of 'poetic licence' and 'cut and paste' from 'others' war patrols - steered towards an audience unable (generally) to disprove Werner's own (personal account) story from non-fiction... The books 'forward' - written by Edward L. Beach (USN retd) even admits that he only knows of Werner through 'his story' . Perhaps Beaches' own story would have been a more factual one? There is an interesting (Iron Coffins) book overview by Michael Hadley (Professor of Germanic studies, University of Victoria and author of several well researched books including U-Boats against Canada, 'A Nations Navy', Tin Pots and Pirate Ships and 'Count not the Dead. Basing his study on some two-hundred-and-fifty German novels, memoirs, fictionalized histories, and films (including Das Boot), Michael Hadley examines the popular image of the German submarine (refering to 'Count not the Dead) and weighs the values, purposes, and perceptions of German writers and film makers. Here it is: Excerpt from â€œCount not the Deadâ€, by M.Hadley On closer examination, however, â€œIron Coffinsâ€ proved to be one of the worst distortions of the postwar period. It is, in fact, just as propaganÂdistic in its own way as u-boat books that had appeared during the war. Jurgen Rohwer, Germany's premier naval historian, savaged the book in a scathing review. "If one wanted to underline the factual errors [in red], almost every page would be like a blood bath," he observed. On the basis of documentary evidence - some of which consisted of reports submitted by Werner himself during his wartime service - Rohwer condemned the book as sheer hyprocisy. Werner had spliced other submariners' achievements onto his own record, had wildly exaggerated circumstances and events, did not have access to witnesses on whom he claimed to draw, invented orders that never existed, and distorted statistics and records - all to sustain his charge that the naval leadership had irresponsibly "fuelled up" submariners to undertake suicidal missions. Werner's book was motivated less by a sense of duty towards his fallen comrades than by cheap sensationalism in the attempt to make a literary hit. By this time, of course, Werner was already enjoying major sales on two continents. Confiding to a former Crew-Kamerad in 1974, Werner commented on his book's continuing success. It had appeared in fourteen counÂtries including Japan. It had given rise to tours across the United States for some Tv and radio interviews, and lectures at schools, univerÂsities, and naval bases. He had become, in effect, the paramount image-maker: "I was thus in the extraordinary position of informing our former opponents about the truth of our epic struggle. I know I have done more for the esteem of our U-Boat Arm and its men than all those little pen-pushers together. Significantly, the Association of German Submariners had fully supported the findings of Jurgen Rohwer's debunking review; it had dissociated itself from any claims in the memoir and had rejected Werner's "hack-work as totally without foundation." Fortunately for Werner, however, his fame and his mesÂsage outlived the review. However, as I said earlier - an enjoyable read! __________________ OLt.z.S.Benetschik (Benetofski) [IMG][/IMG] \"U-bootwaffe - eine Gemeinschaft zusammengebracht durch Schicksal\"

12-09-05, 09:46 PM	#13
ironkross Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seneca, SC, USA Posts: 251 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	When I read it there were many times I found some of the passages a little too hard to believe. The escapes from certain death that recurred over and over started to make me wonder. I enjoyed reading the book tho. __________________ If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.

12-08-05, 06:43 PM	#2
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,005 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I`m still waiting for my copy. I ordered it on last thursday. It shouldÂ´ve been here already.

12-08-05, 06:59 PM	#3
supersloth Seaman Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: CA, USA Posts: 41 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	incidently, im just finishing this book up. hang on cause your in for one hell of a ride

12-08-05, 07:39 PM	#4
MarkT79 Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Cleveland Posts: 10 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Excellent book, Mine is missing pages 128-161 but I just carried on reading and didn't bother returning it because enjoyed the rest of the book so much. You can learn quite a bit to help you play well at SH3. It could also be made into a good film, Someone send Wolfgang Pieterson a copy :P

12-09-05, 08:25 AM	#8
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,005 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Yay! I got my copy today!

12-09-05, 10:14 AM	#9
donw Sonar Guy Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 386 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	I got mine a few days ago...(10.73 on Amazon) had it read that 1st night... really enjoyed it...regardless of any "distortions" If anyone is interested in buying it from me for the same price...I'll pass it along

12-09-05, 11:25 AM	#10
CptGrayWolf Commander Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Lawrence Seaway Posts: 459 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	What's all this 'ordering books' about? Don't you guys have book stores in your city? And yes, Iron Coffins has taken a few hits from 'experts', saying the book is full of errors. I did find it curious when Werner simply states how he brought down a plane all by himself with his water cooled WW1 machine gun ! Nevertheless, Iron Coffin is a great book, and even if he gets a few factual numbers wrong, he still knows what war smells and looks like and this he describes with great skill.

12-09-05, 06:46 PM	#12
Venatore Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia:- Sydney Posts: 2,049 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	both sides had amazing people, and this is another example. Venatore

12-10-05, 03:05 PM	#14
turbidite Seaman Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 42 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	The main interest of Werner's book is the fact that it mixes well patrol time with leave time and involves you much more in the war than other books (except Steel Boat, Iron Hearts about u-505). This is this kind of feeling that I miss in current simulations and that was partially present in AOD. I probably look like the devil's advocate but iron coffins is the book I find myself returning to each time I want a uboat fix. For the curious you can look at the crew list at uboatwaffe.net and find Werner's friends that disappeared at various time during the war - it is really a weird feeling to read about them and see their pictures and then a line like this : Gerloff Gunter Lt.z.S 15.10.1921 14.04.1943 U-526+ lost near Lorient Forget about the nitpick and enjoy the reading

12-11-05, 07:02 AM	#15
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,005 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	When was Iron Coffins made? IÂ´ve found lots of similarities to the Das Boot. Did Petersen make some of the things from the book? i.e. the human chain to move the water, chlorine gas filling up the boat etc. reminded me lots of Das Boot.