Gentlemen, I need your help - Page 2

jadervason · 04-25-10, 12:09 AM

If it makes you feel any better, the windows fold down.

Reading wikipedia's link (which is in russian, my best guesses are with google's translator's help)...the Zulu was no slouch. Twice as large as a type IX and even a little bigger than a Type XXI, she could sail 22000 (miles? km? I want to believe they're nautical miles) on the surface at 9.2 knots, and she could go 440 units at 2.1 knots, or she could hold out for 16 units at her maximum submerged speed of 16 knots (presumably she could go an hour at full tilt, not quite the hour and a half the Type XXI could sustain). She was limited to 6 knots under some circumstance I'm not sure of, though I want to say snorkeling or masts up, and under some other circumstance she could make 15 knots. The snorkel does not seem to be a mast-type, so I'm led to believe she could do 15 knots snorkeling and 6kts with her 5 or 6 masts up. On the surface she could make 17kts. Her working/test depth was 200 meters.

These boats kept their 57mm and 25mm cannons until some point in 1956. Just begging for some ambitious modder to send them back in time and put them under Onkel Karl's thumb...

jadervason · 04-25-10, 12:20 AM

That's neat stuff, Strike. Why, praytell, did you initiate the models of the Zulu?

TLAM Strike · 04-25-10, 12:31 AM

Quote:

That's neat stuff, Strike. Why, praytell, did you initiate the models of the Zulu?

I was building submarines for a game called Virtual Sailor. I made a Japanese Midget Sub, a US WWII era S Boat and a GUPPY class sub with partial interiors (the midget had a full interior) and I really wanted to do a Russian boat. I picked the Zulu but I lost interest in VS when Dangerous Waters came out so I never finished the interior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadervason

These boats kept their 57mm and 25mm cannons until some point in 1956. Just begging for some ambitious modder to send them back in time and put them under Onkel Karl's thumb...

Bah 1956! Here is some trivia to amaze your friends! When was the last submarine armed with a deck gun decommissioned? Give up? 2000!

The Peruvian Lobo class (also called the Abtao class).

Two of these subs carried 5 in guns while two were only armed with torpedoes. They were US designed and built at Electric Boat. As you can see their hull design was very heavily influenced by the US GUPPY Boats.

jadervason · 04-25-10, 06:29 AM

YGBSM.

Surely these submersible cruisers were detoothed sometime before 2000.

Are you telling me there was a 90's modernized diesel-electric submarine that had a 5 inch gun?!

EDIT: Nevermind.

Well, I guess the only question now is how fast could she go? Stop toying with my heart strings, Strike...

TLAM Strike · 04-25-10, 09:26 AM

Abtao class:
Dis: 825 standard, 1400 dived
Dim: 127x22x14m
Weapons: 1 5in/25. 6 533mm torpedo tubes (4/2)
Machinery: 2 GM 278A Diesels; 2 400 bhp electric motors; 2 shafts.
Speed 16 surfaced; 10 dived
Oil Fuel; 45 tons
range; 5000 miles at 10 knots surfaced
crew; 40

Like I said amaze your friends!

jadervason · 04-25-10, 09:36 AM

My question is 'exactly what the hell kind of aircraft was that gun designed to engage?'

Even a shturmovik would be vaporized simply by being caught in the gunsight, let alone hit with a shell...

The 57mm still looks a hell of a lot meaner, though. In addition, all four of the Abtao class boats were renamed early in their careers. Didn't anyone tell those sailors in Peru that it's bad luck to rename a boat? Now, the 80's modernized Abtaos were probably faster, but I can't find any data that lists them as faster than 10 or 11 knots.

Project 611, you're still my favorite.

TLAM Strike · 04-25-10, 09:56 AM

IIRC the 5in gun's on US subs like the one pictured, while DP were never issued AA shells and were thus relegated to surface attack only.

jadervason · 04-25-10, 10:32 AM

From what I understand, it was a single purpose AA gun, and no armor piercing ammunition was created for the 5"/25 caliber naval guns. Therefore if subs never received any anti-aircraft rounds, they had what we'd refer to as high-explosive or high-capacity rounds with a point detonator. The only difference between the AA round and the HE round was the fuze, the AA rounds could be time fuzed or proximity fuzed...the shell was essentially the same.

In any case on a submarine the elevation was limited to 40 degrees, which would have had an impact on AA use. Based on the fact there were no smaller guns mounted to the Abtao, I think it's safe to say the 5 inch gun was not really intended for AA work. But if not, then why'd they mount it to the back of the thing?

Closest it could come to the nose was 22 degrees.

TLAM Strike · 04-25-10, 10:51 AM

Yes the rounds for that gun were intended for Sampans and Trawlers and had a point fuse as you say.

I don't know why they mounted it on the stern. Some US subs had it mounted there. Maybe it increased submerged performance slightly, or kept the flow noise away from the hydrophones, or minimized the shock to the hydrophones when the gun fired. Obviously from the picture I posted it turned out to be a good move since they installed a large sonar on the bow during a refit. I imagine that sonar was far more useful the gun.

jadervason · 04-25-10, 06:31 PM

The sonar was certainly more valuable, but in terms of tactics I don't know if it was truly more useful than the gun. After all, most targets that would be capable of withstanding the gunfire would probably be able to hear a sonar pulse as well.

TLAM Strike · 04-25-10, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadervason

The sonar was certainly more valuable, but in terms of tactics I don't know if it was truly more useful than the gun. After all, most targets that would be capable of withstanding the gunfire would probably be able to hear a sonar pulse as well.

Don't forget the passive capabilities of the sonar, enemy warships wouldn't hear that.

jadervason · 04-25-10, 06:48 PM

I've often wondered how the passive sonar systems and the hydrophones interact, especially on an old school sub like one of these two. Or whether the active radar set could find surface ships, or only aircraft.

TLAM Strike · 04-25-10, 06:53 PM

This may interest you to answer some of your sonar questions.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87...d-war-asw.html

As for radars it depended on what was fitted. US Boats had both air and surface search radars. Not sure about other countries.

jadervason · 04-25-10, 08:38 PM

Great link. Extremely informative. Apparently the Zulu class and all it's Type XXI brethren were virtually inaudible below cavitation speed, if running on batteries. THAT'S when the Abtao class' sonar would have come in handy, because you couldn't find another elektroboot without it (if he weren't snorkeling)

Against a nuclear submarine the elektroboots have had a detection advantage when running silent but they could probably never hope to catch one if it sprinted. Then again, it's the speed of the torpedo that would matter at that point.

Do you know of any games/simulations that featured the Zulu or Whiskey as a playable class?

TLAM Strike · 04-25-10, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadervason

Against a nuclear submarine the elektroboots have had a detection advantage when running silent but they could probably never hope to catch one if it sprinted. Then again, it's the speed of the torpedo that would matter at that point.

That is why the SUBROC was developed, its hard to outrun a missile. Although I don't know of any US smokeboats that were fitted with the SUBROC as the USN went over to Nucs very quick. Russian diesels could carry their version though.

Quote:

Do you know of any games/simulations that featured the Zulu or Whiskey as a playable class?

There are none to my knowledge.

04-25-10, 06:29 AM	#19
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	YGBSM. Surely these submersible cruisers were detoothed sometime before 2000. Are you telling me there was a 90's modernized diesel-electric submarine that had a 5 inch gun?! EDIT: Nevermind. Well, I guess the only question now is how fast could she go? Stop toying with my heart strings, Strike... Last edited by jadervason; 04-25-10 at 07:07 AM.

04-25-10, 09:26 AM	#20
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Abtao class: Dis: 825 standard, 1400 dived Dim: 127x22x14m Weapons: 1 5in/25. 6 533mm torpedo tubes (4/2) Machinery: 2 GM 278A Diesels; 2 400 bhp electric motors; 2 shafts. Speed 16 surfaced; 10 dived Oil Fuel; 45 tons range; 5000 miles at 10 knots surfaced crew; 40 Like I said amaze your friends! __________________

04-25-10, 09:56 AM	#22
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	IIRC the 5in gun's on US subs like the one pictured, while DP were never issued AA shells and were thus relegated to surface attack only. __________________

04-25-10, 10:51 AM	#24
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Yes the rounds for that gun were intended for Sampans and Trawlers and had a point fuse as you say. I don't know why they mounted it on the stern. Some US subs had it mounted there. Maybe it increased submerged performance slightly, or kept the flow noise away from the hydrophones, or minimized the shock to the hydrophones when the gun fired. Obviously from the picture I posted it turned out to be a good move since they installed a large sonar on the bow during a refit. I imagine that sonar was far more useful the gun. __________________

04-25-10, 06:53 PM	#28
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	This may interest you to answer some of your sonar questions. http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87...d-war-asw.html As for radars it depended on what was fitted. US Boats had both air and surface search radars. Not sure about other countries. __________________

04-25-10, 12:09 AM	#16
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	If it makes you feel any better, the windows fold down. Reading wikipedia's link (which is in russian, my best guesses are with google's translator's help)...the Zulu was no slouch. Twice as large as a type IX and even a little bigger than a Type XXI, she could sail 22000 (miles? km? I want to believe they're nautical miles) on the surface at 9.2 knots, and she could go 440 units at 2.1 knots, or she could hold out for 16 units at her maximum submerged speed of 16 knots (presumably she could go an hour at full tilt, not quite the hour and a half the Type XXI could sustain). She was limited to 6 knots under some circumstance I'm not sure of, though I want to say snorkeling or masts up, and under some other circumstance she could make 15 knots. The snorkel does not seem to be a mast-type, so I'm led to believe she could do 15 knots snorkeling and 6kts with her 5 or 6 masts up. On the surface she could make 17kts. Her working/test depth was 200 meters. These boats kept their 57mm and 25mm cannons until some point in 1956. Just begging for some ambitious modder to send them back in time and put them under Onkel Karl's thumb...

04-25-10, 12:20 AM	#17
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	That's neat stuff, Strike. Why, praytell, did you initiate the models of the Zulu?

04-25-10, 09:36 AM	#21
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	My question is 'exactly what the hell kind of aircraft was that gun designed to engage?' Even a shturmovik would be vaporized simply by being caught in the gunsight, let alone hit with a shell... The 57mm still looks a hell of a lot meaner, though. In addition, all four of the Abtao class boats were renamed early in their careers. Didn't anyone tell those sailors in Peru that it's bad luck to rename a boat? Now, the 80's modernized Abtaos were probably faster, but I can't find any data that lists them as faster than 10 or 11 knots. Project 611, you're still my favorite.

04-25-10, 10:32 AM	#23
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	From what I understand, it was a single purpose AA gun, and no armor piercing ammunition was created for the 5"/25 caliber naval guns. Therefore if subs never received any anti-aircraft rounds, they had what we'd refer to as high-explosive or high-capacity rounds with a point detonator. The only difference between the AA round and the HE round was the fuze, the AA rounds could be time fuzed or proximity fuzed...the shell was essentially the same. In any case on a submarine the elevation was limited to 40 degrees, which would have had an impact on AA use. Based on the fact there were no smaller guns mounted to the Abtao, I think it's safe to say the 5 inch gun was not really intended for AA work. But if not, then why'd they mount it to the back of the thing? Closest it could come to the nose was 22 degrees.

04-25-10, 06:31 PM	#25
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	The sonar was certainly more valuable, but in terms of tactics I don't know if it was truly more useful than the gun. After all, most targets that would be capable of withstanding the gunfire would probably be able to hear a sonar pulse as well.

04-25-10, 06:48 PM	#27
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I've often wondered how the passive sonar systems and the hydrophones interact, especially on an old school sub like one of these two. Or whether the active radar set could find surface ships, or only aircraft.

04-25-10, 08:38 PM	#29
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Great link. Extremely informative. Apparently the Zulu class and all it's Type XXI brethren were virtually inaudible below cavitation speed, if running on batteries. THAT'S when the Abtao class' sonar would have come in handy, because you couldn't find another elektroboot without it (if he weren't snorkeling) Against a nuclear submarine the elektroboots have had a detection advantage when running silent but they could probably never hope to catch one if it sprinted. Then again, it's the speed of the torpedo that would matter at that point. Do you know of any games/simulations that featured the Zulu or Whiskey as a playable class?