Ubisoft Masterserver down? (merged)

[The Enigma]

@RSColonel_131st

That's exactly my point of view, only I'm not that good in formulating the arguments you use.

Great read. People should be aware of these points of view and stop
relaxing behind the words: "I have nothing to hide".

Soon there will nothing to be left to hide.

[jwilliams]

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

Besides, you haven't answered my question: Do you get anything extra by giving them all this data? What's the benefit for you in the deal?

They dont have any data on me. apart from an e-mail address. and when i log in and out. and maybe my geographic location (from my IP address).
But i do get some freebies with my uplay points. Skins ATM with more rewards to follow.

1. What info do they have that someone could steal my identity? Cant really steal my identity with an e-mail address.

2. I only click agree... dont fill out any details for the EULA. And anyone can make an account with ubisoft. So would only need my correct details if i wanted to use the account as proof to sue Ubi.

3. Streaming ads.... doesnt really bother me, just as long as it doesnt affect my gameplay... if it affected my gameplay then i would choose not to buy the product.... I HAVE A CHOICE.

4. I dont like the idea, im still against the idea and would rather it wasnt there. but i dont feel as strongly about it as you.

5. Yes its possible.... but NZ govement have said that the sites would be assessed (by an independant review board) before they get cencored / filtered.

6. The city i grew up in, there were CCTV cameras on almost every street corner (I grew up in the UK. CCTV outnumbers the population 3 -1). if there were no other people around you could see the camera turn to follow you. being watched by big brother doesnt realy worry me. Maybe you have something to hide?

You dont have to accept what games publishers are doing...... You dont have to buy their games.

You have a choice..... i dont tell you what you should choose.
I have a choice too... why do you feel you need to tell me what i should choose?

[RSColonel_131st]

Thanks Enigma, at least I know I'm not the only one who ticks that way.

Is it really such a stretch that a pissed-off UBI Employee who gets fired takes a list of usernames and real names from the server and puts them up somewhere for the competition to see (to harm his old company)? Where maybe a Google search by your future employer might find you listed as playing 20 hours of "Nazi U-Boat Sims" a week and thus you do not even get invited for an interview?

Stuff like this has happened in the past. Once the Data is out there, it can never be completely safe, no matter how much the initial collecting company promises to play nice. UBI can't even secure their logon servers against a small scale DDOS attack, but they are to be trusted by giving them private information? What if UBI gets merged with another company which then uses the data for entirely different things?

BTW, to clarify, the French "Three Strikes" model I referenced above means after three copyright violations, you have your internet line disabled (but still need to pay the monthly fees to the provider). As far as I know, there is no judge or court involved in the process, the rights-holders (Companies) can directly submit their claims of infringment to the providers, you don't even get a chance to defend yourself in front of a real judge and with due process. But yeah, Williams, keep believing that internet censorship in NZ will be based "fair assessment". You do know that Software Companies are a very large lobby group in favor of this system?

These Multi-Billion Stock Coporations will violate as much of our customer rights as fully as possible as long as they can get away. They are operating at the legal limit to make the most money. I cringe when I see people like Williams defend these companies and their right to "make their terms".

*******
EDIT: Williams, I just read that you grew up in the UK. I now understand your behaviour - the UK is at the very forefront of monitoring it's citizens. "Maybe you have something to hide" is a laughable argument to make in discussions of this kind. So the choice is either agree to be monitored, or be called a criminal? Brave New World.

I'm not gonna comment on your last sentence, I already did that. If you want to be slave to Corporatocracy, keep buying every title under ever term they throw at you. I mean wow, they gave you free skins for signing away your privacy and handing over control of your gaming time to them. Those benevolent masters must really be pleased with you to hand you such an awesome valuable gift.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

you have no problem excluding all persons from PC Gaming who value their privacy and control over their own software, they simple "should not buy" and get the hell out of the market. Thus creating a market where companies have the ultimate say in every transaction and customers are mere sheep throwing their money at them.

I welcome you, my new Sheep Overlord.

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

But I know that everyone who buys SH5 sends a signal to UBI that it is okay to remove our customer rights bit by bit. You are shaping the market we all live in, and you are helping to shape it negatively.

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

But obviously you really love big multinational companies having your private data and control over your gaming. I can't understand this, but maybe you are a masochist.

RSColonel_131st,

All you are doing is proving my previous point.

Of course, I can't tell if you really believe what you are writing (which would be really scary) or if you are just willing to say anything at all just to win an argument.

[RSColonel_131st]

Rat, what would be really scary is if I turn out to be right.

I mean, five years ago, anyone saying you need to be constantly online to play an SP game would have been laughed out of the forum.

Just because you do not want to connect the dots doesn't mean there aren't any dots to connect.

And for the record, I didn't tell anyone to not buy the game. If you don't like reading about the fact that you are signing away your customer rights (like the right to resell an item) by buying the game, then you can simple ignore me.

BTW, what's objectionable about the third quote you included? Isn't it a fact that he signed over his private data and control over gaming time to UBI? What's there to dispute?

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

BTW, what's objectionable about the third quote you included? Isn't it a fact that he signed over his private data and control over gaming time to UBI? What's there to dispute?

I just rechecked. When you open a Ubi.com or Ubiplay account to play the game, you have to give your name, DoB, country of residence, postal code, choose a user name, user password and email address.

A lot less info than a lot of online retailer require, like Amazon.

The only thing Ubi really requires is a valid user name, user password and email account (just like STEAM), to make sure each game is registered to one user only and is only played online by just that user.

If someone is really paranoid, you can give a fake name, DoB, country, postal code. Ubi does not care. That is what many WoW players have been doing for years. There is even way to sell games, which is again what WoW players have been doing for years. Since you are in the IT industry, you should know how this works.

So again, all your arguments about Big Brother is just a lot of hot air and misdirection. Anyone who is truly worried has many practical alternatives, you should know that.

So we are again left with only our original argument, whether players are willing to buy SH5 despite Ubisoft's online-only requirement. That is the only real sticking point and it's up to each customer to decide.

[thyro]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

So again, all your arguments about Big Brother is just a lot of hot air and misdirection.

You seem ignoring the principle that even with that misguided information, your IP address from your ISP links you (even if your real name is Albert but UBI knows you as Lisa).

Also you forget that when you play SH5 it connects your account at certain time, save the file to their server at X time and you disconnect at Y time.

therefore from this "currently little information" I can trace and understand your pathern of playing; such as what time of the day and your game choices as player and soon I'll be able also have built in a game choices to understand your character.... and regarding choices I could even expand more of its potential to gather info on you.

Further more, if IP address isn't much of concern then give a few more years of this Spyware technology can soon be able to know what color is your pants, the pubs you go and how many times you skip playing the online game to go with your misses.

So I'm sorry m8 but you are opening pandoras box.... today is just that and IP address linking your computer activity... tomorrow... online advertising etc, and you will never know if some patch deploys a worm.

Well if you work in IT you should know by now what this door means...

give a finger and any company gets your hand.. give a hand and your arm plus body goes into... Good luck by surrender your details and freedom.

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I just rechecked. When you open a Ubi.com or Ubiplay account to play the game, you have to give your name, DoB, country of residence, postal code, choose a user name, user password and email address.

A lot less info than a lot of online retailer require, like Amazon.

The only thing Ubi really requires is a valid user name, user password and email account (just like STEAM), to make sure each game is registered to one user only and is only played online by just that user.

If someone is really paranoid, you can give a fake name, DoB, country, postal code. Ubi does not care. That is what many WoW players have been doing for years. There is even way to sell games, which is again what WoW players have been doing for years. Since you are in the IT industry, you should know how this works.

I'm fairly sure both these things are against either the EULA (which you accepted when you install the game) or even Civil Law. I can't read the SH5 EULA but even without it, any legal contract in real life (and signing up for UPlay likely qualifies as contract) requires your correct personal data do be valid.

Registering a game account under a false name is likely legally the same as registering a prepaid cell phone account under a false name. It's possible to do it in practice, but it violates the terms of the contract and the cell phone provider will simple sue you for possible damages and terminate your account if they find out.

Of course, same for resale. I actually have seen posting on a forum the publisher of Rise of Flight in North America who clearly stated that resale of RoF accounts tied to a "just for RoF" email adress means they will NOT give any technical support to the second hand buyer.

So your two solutions to the problem may be practical, but would likely be illegal (if not currently prosecuted) or lead to problems down the road, for example if you want to get a refund or if you have to somewhere enter credit card details to pay for DLC for a game registered under a false name.

If I were you, I would be less smug and call people's valid observations "Hot Air and Misinformation" if your only counter argument is that you can get around these points by breaking the law or possible risking problems down the road.

And also for the record it isn't "paranoid" to not want UBI or any other company to have that kind of data if it isn't required. It is the right to privacy we all have. It actually speaks volumes about your mindset and how easy you are willing to give up personal information if you construct a wish for privacy as "paranoid". If you don't care for privacy, why don't you tell us your real name, age, and where you live here in this thread?

Amazon needs to know where I live so they can send me the parcel, and they need to know my credit card details so they can transact my payment. Total apples/oranges comparison with a Single Player Game I can buy anonymous in the store, but then have to give UBI all my data just so I can play the game against the computer. Here DRM is the leverage used by UBI to get personal data they wouldn't otherwise have received.

And finally, same question to you: What do we gain as customers for giving away privacy? If I do it at my local grocery store chain, at least I get a customer card with discount benefits (I don't own any of these cards either, BTW, since I don't want them to datamine my buying habits). The grocery store doesn't even ask more than UBI. Same basic dataset - Name, Adress, Age, and then of course the information what you buy and when you buy. It's valuable enough data to them to spend a tidy sum of money (loss of profit on discounts) on getting customers to create such accounts. So there is really no argument that this same data would be worthless to UBI, is there? What are they giving you back for it? Do you think it's cool that they gain something from your registration, but you actually lose something (ability to play without internet or if their servers are down).

Please show me what the value of that DRM-Deal is for you as customer.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by thyro

You seem ignoring the principle that even with that misguided information, your IP address from your ISP links you (even if your real name is Albert but UBI knows you as Lisa).

Also you forget that when you play SH5 it connects your account at certain time, save the file to their server at X time and you disconnect at Y time.

therefore from this "currently little information" I can trace and understand your pathern of playing; such as what time of the day and your game choices as player and soon I'll be able also have built in a game choices to understand your character.... and regarding choices I could even expand more of its potential to gather info on you.

Further more, if IP address isn't much of concern then give a few more years of this Spyware technology can soon be able to know what color is your pants, the pubs you go and how many times you skip playing the online game to go with your misses.

So I'm sorry m8 but you are opening pandoras box.... today is just that and IP address linking your computer activity... tomorrow... online advertising etc, and you will never know if some patch deploys a worm.

Well if you work in IT you should know by now what this door means...

give a finger and any company gets your hand.. give a hand and your arm plus body goes into... Good luck by surrender your details and freedom.

agreed, but is'nt that the way it already works in this wired world:

-your exact location can be tracked at any time based on your cell phone;

-your credit card company keeps track of your spending habits and will even call you when a purchase appears unusual;

-websites like Amazon or Netflix, will keep track of your browsing habits and make shopping recommendations;

-online publishers like Microsoft, Blizzard and STEAM, among others, have been keeping an eye on their customers for years now.

Anyone that has a credit card, bank card, cell phone, email account, access to the internet has already had his spending habits dissected, correlated and projected.

I am not saying that what Ubi is doing is right, just that they are not the thin edge of wedge invading our privacy. That door was blown wide open a long time ago and Ubi is just tagging along for the ride.

Again, my point is that "invasion of privacy" is a very weak argument against Ubi's online DRM. A much better argument is to stress the requirement to be online all the time and Ubi's server issues.

[thyro]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Again, my point is that "invasion of privacy" is a very weak argument against Ubi's online DRM. A much better argument is to stress the requirement to be online all the time and Ubi's server issues.

I agree to differ

and I'm glad that exist people in this world with different options otherwise would be tedious world to live.

But lets review your argument in 5 years time or possible earlier than that if you would still trust these game companies with your details and if you would still be able to play SH5 or others games released now with this technology.

Cheers

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by thyro

I agree to differ

and I'm glad that exist people in this world with different options otherwise would be tedious world to live.

But lets review your argument in 5 years time or possible earlier than that if you would still trust these game companies with your details and if you would still be able to play SH5 or others games released now with this technology.

Cheers

agreed.

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I am not saying that what Ubi is doing is right, just that they are not the thin edge of wedge invading our privacy. That door was blown wide open a long time ago and Ubi is just tagging along for the ride.

Like I said earlier, while you are right that Amazon, Netflix, Credit Card companies also collect data, they get to do this because it's inherently necessary for the product/service to actually work. I couldn't play WoW offline, so of course Blizzard knows when I log into their multiplayer servers.

But for an SP game there simple is no technical requirement for mandatory online registration. It is entirely and fully added just for datamining.

Besides, the Privacy Discussion started when I mentioned that this was needed for returning the game if I disagree with the EULA. Why does UBI need to know my age when I want to collect an RMA? Basically they are collecting your data for the mine even if you DISAGREE with the terms of their product and want to return it, which means you aren't even a customer then, but they still make you get a full UBI account.

[jwilliams]

In the terms of the law it is not illigal to create a fake profile to use a website, registar a product, or play a game. It is only illegal to use false detail to commit a crime. (Yes giving false details to the police is a crime. but not a website). It is illegal to use a fake ID (forged document) but you dont have to show any ID to Ubisoft.

And as to the cell phone comment.... it's not illegal to give fake name and address to registar the phone.... You dont even have to register it. Its only illegal if you use the phone and fake details to commit a crime.

You dont have to enter any detail in the EULA.... All you do is click Agree.
There is nothing in the EULA that says you cant use a fake name to register the product. There is nothing on the Ubi website that says you cant use a fake name.

The only trace Ubi have on me is my e-mail address that i gave them (which was created just for SH5, so that if i wish i could sell the game). They can get my IP address. but that only links them to my ISP... they would have to contact my ISP to get any other details about me.... And my ISP can only give out my private detail if Ubi have a court order for them to do so.

And as for returning a product if you dont agree to the EULA... you can give a false name, age etc.... and use a PO BOX No. as your address...
Your UBI account can just be a throw away account.

Simple... they have no ID data on you.

And if you really are that paranoide about it, then dont buy the game, use a credit card, buy a car, travel abroad, get a drivers licence, fishing licence, get a dog or walk near any shops because they might be filming you..etc..

Ubisoft are not making you give up your rights to privicy. You still have the choice not to.

[thyro]

Originally Posted by jwilliams

You still have the choice not to.

Exactly I couldn't agree more with your last phase.

I don't give away my rights as consumer for any company owner/not of DRM with uncontrolled powers which they can do whatever they want on a PC while someones think is all fine and beautiful.

Lets wait a bit longer till apear the 1st cases of data minding, acounts ranking in market research exposures or even worst IDentity theft. It might not be current case of this DRM.

But the pandora's door is widely open to for exploit and in all your rhetoric vindicate that these companies are allowed to exploit you/anyone in the nearest future.

It isn't a matter of what but more a matter of when it will happen... in time DRM evolves to something far more dangerous than simply verify if your game copy is original.

BTW just pure curiosity can you see what is inside of your saved game that is sent to their server?

In your right opnion you trust software companies to keep their integrity of not consider exploit this dangerous avenue. But as company profit dictates more than any kind of moral opinions and ethics and if marketing research enters this field then you can start kissing goodbye to your info even if its fake.

However, I don't even trust the goverment holding my information, much less trust software houses with intrusive software with simple pretext that DRM is just for software verification and it wont degenerate in something else.

Don't get me wrong I have no issue with game security to make sure is genuine software. But intrusive software no thank you... I do consider it a potential spyware.

For that reason that for me SH5 and any other game with this intrusive software as it is atm will remain on the shelves until the day it gets binned by the shop keeper.

It is just a game so we can well live without with. Cheers

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

It was not aimed at you, Steeltrap, since we have had little interaction on the forum, just like I presume your answer to my post was not aimed at me.

It was more of a general "rant", although I see they have now opened a specific "rant" thread. It feels good to "rant" once in a while...

All's good, I was clarifying. I agree with your points about people trying to "tell others what to do". I do my best to advance an argument or perspective while trying to avoid anything personal. Don't know if I always succeed, but I do try.

Cheers