1944. An Already Lost War.

xouftalo · 12-09-19, 01:42 PM

Hi there, since it is my first time I've reached this far, a few thoughts on SH III realism and how it relates to historical facts.

First of all, I play with GWX and SH3 Comm. with a realism of 76% (something like that) and the only non realistic mode is that I am at sea since Sep '39 and normally by May '44 I would be behind a desk and not on the sea.

Secondly, I have read a lot of books on the subject, and I have to say that I am still amazed after all those years that every time I try something the real Kaleuns did, the game responded accurately!

Well, in the game, like in reality, things took a steep turn after the Summer of 42. It was a very successful period in tonnage, with average of more than half a million per month, but with an alarming rate of losses. From then on, the U-boat war was practically lost. Simply, the Americans was building more equipment and ships than U-boats could sink and U-boats were sinking with a greater rate than shipyards could build, not to mention the loss of most of the experienced commanders who knew how to survive.

So, my approach to the game after 1943, is very simple and selfish: The main goal of each patrol is to survive! Nothing more. I tried two times to attack a Convoy, and by escaping by miracle, I said to myself, "never again!" From January 1943 I simply hit stray ships. Even if you can penetrate a Convoy, plan your attack, fire all your eels and score some hits, you simply can not survive the destroyers and corvettes, no matter what!

Next is the plane menace. Far more deadly than warships, the only reaction is to crash dive the second you spot them. No A/A guns will compensate for the hull damage.

The thing that I did on purpose, from January '43 based on historical facts, is that I swapped my trusty VII with a IX. The reason? Due to their incredible range you get missions to New York, Caribbean, Brazil, Africa, even Cape Town. Anyway, you DON'T have to die in the North Atlantic and the shallow British waters. Much more safe, a lot of unescorted loot, and the quality of escort ships is not in par with North Atlantic. Wolfgang Lüth did the same, and is the only top ten commander that entered the list after the Happy Times.

Another similarity of the game and history is that in '44 you are in danger the minute you go out of the harbor. I operate from Lorient and for more than a year I don't dare to sail straight into the Biscay bay. Instead I use a trick of a real Kaleu, and I follow the Piening-Route (after Adolf Piening) who was following the coast from Lorient up where the Spanish coastline meet the Atlantic.

Another historical fact that I experienced first hand, is that no matter what equipment I buy with my renown, is simply not enough. No new radar warning receiver, coating, snorkel, etc, can compensate for the huge improvement of weapons and tactics the Allies was throwing in the table. If you ever found yourself under a salvo of 24 Hedgehog mines, you know... Truth is, the Germans delayed to produce the XXI and by the end of the war the old types-who practically were surface ships with just the ability to submerge briefly- could not survive no matter what the scientists were inventing for them.

So this is my idea of the late war in SH III. Just trying to stay alive to see the end of the war. I am really frustrated by the futility of the war in 1944-45 and the stubbornness of BDU. The war of the Atlantic was a real lost war by then.

So what are your thoughts of this phase of the game, and how you deal with all this madness?

ThePrody · 12-09-19, 02:11 PM

Pretty much the same since approaching convoys is very hard , on the surface they will detect you with radar and submerged you have to be really silent ( 2 kts or so ) - at this speed you may only reach a good position if their course is favorable, otherwise they are gone. I usually go for 6-7 km shots , this way you have a chance to slip away undetected after the torpedoes explode , getting closer is pretty dangerous .

John Pancoast · 12-09-19, 02:44 PM

!944-5 pretty much as you say more or less. I've never found 1943 to be overly difficult though, still get lots of tonnage via a convoy contact.

It just may take a few contacts for it to happen. I.e, that convoy is unapproachable, next one isn't, etc.

Not addressing your post, but imo a lot of the "this <insert mod name here> AI is to tough !" statements are from folks not applying realistic tactics.
I.e., pushing an attack when they shouldn't, etc.

Aktungbby · 12-09-19, 02:53 PM

xouftalo!

FUBAR295 · 12-09-19, 03:04 PM

Same experience also. Just try and survive is my main goal. It's hard work avoiding aircraft and Hunter Killer groups. Late war, if attacking a convoy it is the range between 5000 to 7000 meters and the escorts have to to be in the right places and salvo fanned shots.

Good hunting,
FUBAR295

John Pancoast · 12-09-19, 03:12 PM

If you haven't already, try Stiebler's superb 1944-5 British Coastal campaign in NYGM.

flag4 · 12-10-19, 04:45 PM

"So what are your thoughts of this phase of the game, and how you deal with all this madness?"

if you put the safety of your crew first all the time, you'll survive longer probable.

John Pancoast · 12-10-19, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flag4

"So what are your thoughts of this phase of the game, and how you deal with all this madness?"

if you put the safety of your crew first all the time, you'll survive longer probable.

Exactly.

Schnee · 12-15-19, 11:28 AM

I'll generally command a Type VII until about 1/42 then switch to a Type IX for the range to patrol to easier areas (ie Eastern seaboard to mid '42, Caribbean for the Tanker tonnage) then no later than mid-43 switch back to a Type VII due to the faster dive times.

After mid '43 it IS all about survival and picking of stray Merchantmen as to attack a convoy is literally suicide unless done at long range and you skate soon after.

Then I'll finish the war off in a XXI doing long range patrols to the Caribbean.

12-09-19, 01:42 PM	#1
xouftalo Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 6 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	1944. An Already Lost War. Hi there, since it is my first time I've reached this far, a few thoughts on SH III realism and how it relates to historical facts. First of all, I play with GWX and SH3 Comm. with a realism of 76% (something like that) and the only non realistic mode is that I am at sea since Sep '39 and normally by May '44 I would be behind a desk and not on the sea. Secondly, I have read a lot of books on the subject, and I have to say that I am still amazed after all those years that every time I try something the real Kaleuns did, the game responded accurately! Well, in the game, like in reality, things took a steep turn after the Summer of 42. It was a very successful period in tonnage, with average of more than half a million per month, but with an alarming rate of losses. From then on, the U-boat war was practically lost. Simply, the Americans was building more equipment and ships than U-boats could sink and U-boats were sinking with a greater rate than shipyards could build, not to mention the loss of most of the experienced commanders who knew how to survive. So, my approach to the game after 1943, is very simple and selfish: The main goal of each patrol is to survive! Nothing more. I tried two times to attack a Convoy, and by escaping by miracle, I said to myself, "never again!" From January 1943 I simply hit stray ships. Even if you can penetrate a Convoy, plan your attack, fire all your eels and score some hits, you simply can not survive the destroyers and corvettes, no matter what! Next is the plane menace. Far more deadly than warships, the only reaction is to crash dive the second you spot them. No A/A guns will compensate for the hull damage. The thing that I did on purpose, from January '43 based on historical facts, is that I swapped my trusty VII with a IX. The reason? Due to their incredible range you get missions to New York, Caribbean, Brazil, Africa, even Cape Town. Anyway, you DON'T have to die in the North Atlantic and the shallow British waters. Much more safe, a lot of unescorted loot, and the quality of escort ships is not in par with North Atlantic. Wolfgang Lüth did the same, and is the only top ten commander that entered the list after the Happy Times. Another similarity of the game and history is that in '44 you are in danger the minute you go out of the harbor. I operate from Lorient and for more than a year I don't dare to sail straight into the Biscay bay. Instead I use a trick of a real Kaleu, and I follow the Piening-Route (after Adolf Piening) who was following the coast from Lorient up where the Spanish coastline meet the Atlantic. Another historical fact that I experienced first hand, is that no matter what equipment I buy with my renown, is simply not enough. No new radar warning receiver, coating, snorkel, etc, can compensate for the huge improvement of weapons and tactics the Allies was throwing in the table. If you ever found yourself under a salvo of 24 Hedgehog mines, you know... Truth is, the Germans delayed to produce the XXI and by the end of the war the old types-who practically were surface ships with just the ability to submerge briefly- could not survive no matter what the scientists were inventing for them. So this is my idea of the late war in SH III. Just trying to stay alive to see the end of the war. I am really frustrated by the futility of the war in 1944-45 and the stubbornness of BDU. The war of the Atlantic was a real lost war by then. So what are your thoughts of this phase of the game, and how you deal with all this madness?

12-09-19, 02:44 PM	#3
John Pancoast Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Minnysoda Posts: 3,183 Downloads: 490 Uploads: 4	!944-5 pretty much as you say more or less. I've never found 1943 to be overly difficult though, still get lots of tonnage via a convoy contact. It just may take a few contacts for it to happen. I.e, that convoy is unapproachable, next one isn't, etc. Not addressing your post, but imo a lot of the "this <insert mod name here> AI is to tough !" statements are from folks not applying realistic tactics. I.e., pushing an attack when they shouldn't, etc. __________________ "Realistic" is not always GAME-GOOD." - Wave Skipper

12-09-19, 02:53 PM	#4
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 27,852 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Welcome aboard! xouftalo! __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe"

12-09-19, 03:04 PM	#5
FUBAR295 Krusty Krab Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Decks awash in the North Atlantic Posts: 1,274 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 0	Same experience also. Just try and survive is my main goal. It's hard work avoiding aircraft and Hunter Killer groups. Late war, if attacking a convoy it is the range between 5000 to 7000 meters and the escorts have to to be in the right places and salvo fanned shots. Good hunting, FUBAR295 __________________ Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment.

12-09-19, 03:12 PM	#6
John Pancoast Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Minnysoda Posts: 3,183 Downloads: 490 Uploads: 4	If you haven't already, try Stiebler's superb 1944-5 British Coastal campaign in NYGM. __________________ "Realistic" is not always GAME-GOOD." - Wave Skipper

12-09-19, 02:11 PM	#2
ThePrody not dead yet Join Date: May 2017 Location: Romania Posts: 193 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 1	Pretty much the same since approaching convoys is very hard , on the surface they will detect you with radar and submerged you have to be really silent ( 2 kts or so ) - at this speed you may only reach a good position if their course is favorable, otherwise they are gone. I usually go for 6-7 km shots , this way you have a chance to slip away undetected after the torpedoes explode , getting closer is pretty dangerous .

12-10-19, 04:45 PM	#7
flag4 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: as far away as possible Posts: 1,625 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 0	"So what are your thoughts of this phase of the game, and how you deal with all this madness?" if you put the safety of your crew first all the time, you'll survive longer probable. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ' We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different.' Kurt Vonnegut

12-15-19, 11:28 AM	#9
Schnee Engineer Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 209 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I'll generally command a Type VII until about 1/42 then switch to a Type IX for the range to patrol to easier areas (ie Eastern seaboard to mid '42, Caribbean for the Tanker tonnage) then no later than mid-43 switch back to a Type VII due to the faster dive times. After mid '43 it IS all about survival and picking of stray Merchantmen as to attack a convoy is literally suicide unless done at long range and you skate soon after. Then I'll finish the war off in a XXI doing long range patrols to the Caribbean.