1914: Shells of Fury

[Deamon]

@CB..

Woaaahhh

I don't even know what to say. I had to rub my eyes and read your post 2 times. Here are some thoughts..

Originally Posted by CB..

cheers all
the unique aspect of the game is the fashion in which it creates it's missions..
the fact that you can type VISUAL BASIC code (or as i say something very much like it) STRIAGHT into the mission file itself...opens the game up so wide you can do literaly anything you want with it....as long as you have the know how to write the code ..
it's hard to think of any comparison any where else...but the best i can come up with is that each individual mission file allows you to redisign the entire game virtualy from scratch ...

it's really rather incredible..

Hmm, this would be more than i would have expected :hmm:

I surely noticed the huge ammount of cfg and script files what told me that the game is extremely and propably totally modable. Basically an SDK. But back then its cryptical appearence and total lack of comments scared me away and i was to busy with my own project anyway.

However i noticed empirically in the game that it is more or less a sleeping giant. I do not play it that often and sometimes i get really bored by the lack of dynamic but when i get into a new situation i always get extremely excited and addicted. I suddenly do not want to expand my ordnance as soon as possible and get back home. I suddenly want to see very curiously what will happen next.

Gunning ships in SH always made me crank up the time compression. To some reason, I never do this in SOF, i actually like it to watch it in real time. In thous addicting moments i notice how many ambitions were behind this game. But the low budget nature of this game spoiled its potential. It's up to the moders now how much of it can be still saved. And SOF lacks realism options. The auto TDC and stealth meter kinda takes away the point of the game for me.

But it's interesting that you tell me this now. I never looked that close to SOF, i just noticed that it seems to expose pretty much everything to text files. This is propably the most open game around. It's a moders dream actually!

Deamon your involved in writing game code for your project...so you must have a head for code work..( to say the least i should imagnine?)

Sure, although there is still a lot of room for improvement for me.

what SOF allows you to do is write game creation code stright into the mission scripts.....

because of this i can't actualy see any limitations to what the game can do ...
it's only limitations are down to how familiar you are with writting the code..

This would be the most amazing feature, and let me look on it like this ->

This would be what moders always dreamed about!

the game has it's draw backs...

I see to many drawbacks in SOF for me to get really interested in it. I am very demanding and never get sadisfied unless i have the full control and no limits in creating new things. So i started my own thing.

I guess i gathered to much knowledge about the subject to get ever really excited about all the current sims. I am way to demanding.

Also, sometimes games appear with really good features but on the other hand blatantly neglect some other most crucial areas. And since it is hardcoded you can't do a damn thing about it. I am completely feed up with this. I see no option for an own project. I just want to change all thous little things that always nagged me.

I want some real SIMULATOR. So realism wise I go a radically different way in IUF. Expect it to be a realism shock. When i get it finished some day, forget what you have seen in all the other subsims. You will have to learn from scratch again!

It will be very different in just any regards. Despite its infancy the early prototype shows this tendecy pretty clearly.

the lack of any genuine danger for the player is another thing...dive every time you see a destroyer and that's it threat over..it really needs late war hydrohones..

Oh really ? you mean also no waterbombs in the second half of the war ? ( I am still at the beginning )

but that's where the code comes in...i may not be able to write the code for hydrophones at the moment...but it's seems perfectly obviuos that it is possible to script DD's equiped with hydrophones into the missions...using the same logic that other sims use to simulate hyrdophones and other sensors..

once you grasp that possibility you begin to see that what we have here is in fact SUBMARINE SIMULATOR GAME CREATION SOFTWARE..

This is fantastic actually and somewhat ironically, cause not only do SOF deals with WWI u-boats like IUF but it also seems to follows the same design philosophy.

And the development even seem to have started not far apart from my.

Actually this is exactly what i do with my own sim. I want to expose almost all of the engines internals to cfg files and scripts. Back in the days i even intended to release it as a pure SDK, without any real game content and leave the rest up to the moders but later decided that i should try to do a full game, that also should serve as an example to moders.

Just a while ago i came to the idea to make the engine programmable via scripts where you can do math operations, call hardcoded functions and access any variable in the game and use it for triggering. This would make it possible to create completally new stuff.

and soft ware that could given time and practice (as with any game creation software) do anything required of it anything at all..
which is not bad going for a much derided and deliberately ignored (IMO) new sub sim on the market

Actually, because of a lack of time and maybe lack of interest in SOF i didn't wanted to be the one who will discover its potential so I am glad you did

I was wondering how long it will take someone to drive his teeth deep into its flesh.

take a look at it see if you can help me out with some of the code..(i am NO expert far from it)

Hmm, what do you need ? And what do you already know ?

an example would be here that if some -one was to attempt to convert the game to a WW2 subsim..they could with enough experience code the proper AI DD
tactics for convoy escorts,,by that i mean all the correct maneuvers such as "pineapple" and so on...you can very accurately control what each individual vessel does and why it does it....and you can co-ordinate the vessels to act in unison or individualy and again when why and for how long..with endlessly complex dynamic response to the changing circumstances they encounter....

Stop teasing me like this

This all makes me want to develop my own sim just faster. I have so many great things on my todo list. I just added cfg file support and soon scripts.

this is just something that is utterly and completely beyond the capacity for modification in SH3/4 etc.....

Yes and this is the best move the SOF devs have made. This could dramatically improve its popularity once some serious moders will put their hands on it. And i think you did the first step in this process. If you can sheed more light on its power, moders might be drawn in soon.

Modability is an extreme success factor today. But this message still do not seem to have penetrated to all the devs. Imagine SHII wouldn't have been so modable. It would have never played it.

The devs need to take modability more serious. It is after all just a question of policy. Technically it is not a big deal at all to expose the engine to text files.

this would involve a lot of complex code BUT once written i believe it can be stored in a "Template" and called from the mission file when the behaviuor is required..ie triggered by time ..detection of the player...location ...anything really...

Yes, you could write general functions and store them in files and call them later from scripts to do some thing. That is essentially a library.

once again you grasp the fact that you can do this sort of thing you can see that with expert code work you can build a library of AI behaviuor and other effects and call them in a similar fashion to those behaviuors now currently stored in the "StateEnginetemplates.txt"

Yes, that would be the way to go. Just study the out of the box files to draw conclusions about its functionality.

there is a function also for calling an external script which is triggered by the player reaching an objective....indeed there is a slightly obscure function that has an external script actual AS the objective...tho i'm at a loss as to what that actualy means right now..

I am not sure what you mean.

so once you start thinking of the mission scripts as giving you genuine access to the games core code and the ability to modify it adapt it and add to it on the fly you can see that this is no ordinary run of the mill game engine...FAR FAR FROM IT
it without even trying makes the SH3/4 game engine look pretty bl**dy silly by comparison..which is why it's so ironic that so few have gotten their heads out of their arses long enough to see beyond their own ego trips! it is almost as if the game devs have given the subsim community absolutely everything they could have ever dreamed of....but no one was interested because it involved too much "work"

Hell, yes!

But the game fails to communicate its power, it appears like a budget game

quite WHY the DEVS didn't take a couple of hours one afternoon to write some decent complex code into the campaign to show what the game was capable of is a mystery to me...if they HAD.. no one would have any doubts about just how good this game can be:hmm: too busy worrying about the box art no doubt...strange prioritys...bizaare

Well, on the devs side they have one million things to deal with and when the deadline was reached, before the targeted minimum was implemented it will just get out as sore as it is. If you can remember the early adverticing, then you will notice how high the ambitions were and how much they had to be cutted back at the end. So a dynamic campaign was adverticed, a detailed interiour life. But at the end, no detailed interiour and no dynamic campaign. Instead a somehow low budget appearing game.

remember that there is NO definitive "periscope depth" in the game...go deeper...and you will find you can get within ramming range if your carefull..remember that you have maybe 5 or 6 seconds grace before the ship spots the scope so you can pop it up to get your bearings then quickly lower the scope again and creep closer....get down to about 9 metres depth and be prepared to constantly adjust the height of the scope to compensate for the waves and watch the detection metre to gauge your visability..as i say the contact stays active even after you lower the scope for a considerable time..so even using the stock weather/water animation set up you can get right up along side the ships..it's probably one of most complex and best simulated scope depth scope visability factors seen so far in a subsim..AFAIK

This is interesting actually. Back then my scope was detected on some occassions, being miles away from a ship. However i would like to check this again whether this has not something to do with how far and how long i let the periscope up. If so then this would be actually most realistic.

I guess we are so used to the lack of realism(and believe they lack it so much) in the other sims that we might tend to scream "bug" when a new sim covers new areas of realism that is much against our false expectations about realism.

But more well approximated realism gives so much more tactical depth to a sim. Even few small additional details can be a big difference!

You made me really curious with all this talks, CB... I guess i will take a second closer look on it

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by CB..

sorry to quote again but i forgot to ask and it would get lost in the other post..

what i need is some method using code to store the player subs location (in a float?) then recall that information using it to spawn an enemy sub within torpedo range..(using my surprise attack stuff)...

the code can do this i'm positive..but i am a little out of my depth..

Well the question is do the scripting support this function at all and if yes what commands have to be used to do this operations ?

I think the answere can be found only in the scripts that come along with the game. You basically have to look if such an operation is done somewhere in an other script. The question is if the engine do this stuff at all. Maybe you should check out the scripts that deals with mines, since they will be spotted only close to the boat(I suppose).

as stock you can only spawn vessels at the extreme range allowed by the visability...this gives the player far too much time as he always sees the enemy first...

Potentially there could be some workarounds.

Do you know if all units get detected as soon as they appear on the maximum visibility range or can they be made detectable much below this range ?

What do this code lines means exactly ?

AddStateItem [u2],"c:0,1,EnemyVisible:5000"
AddStateItem [u2],"c:1,0,-EnemyVisible:8000"

If it is not possible to make the sub attack submerged you could simple change the E-34 model for a periscope model only that is placed so deep relative to it's node that it sticks above the water only a meter or what ever hight you like. I think more than a periscope isn't needed since the water is not transparent in SOF iirc. If the spotting range can be modified then you culd set the detectability down to what would be resonable for a periscope sticking out of the water.

It would have been nice from the devs if they would have added an API doc for all the commands.

your writting your own game engine so thought you ought to be the guy to quiz?

Sure you can ask me.

SOF game code is fairly stock VB code so the usual methods should still be at least ball park for the game?

So you are familiiar with VB then ?

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Well the question is do the scripting support this function at all and if yes what commands have to be used to do this operations ?

without any doubt at all the scripting can support this sort of stuff...they really haven't "watered down" the code used at all...it seems as i say close to VB code ..i do have a limited experience with VB..tho my experience is extremely... well er...basic (lol)

but i recognise the fact they have made no attempt to trim or limit the code used to make it user friendly in any way...(other than the templates written into the stateenginetemplates.txt)

this is what turned me on to the uniqueness of the game..normally they take the code and water it down to the bare essentails and then you gets your add -on mission editors etc etc ..but with this game it's all done with sheer raw unadultered code....with very few exceptions ..there are some game specific commands etc..

so that means more or less that if you can code it... the game will run it...almost without restriction...i'm betting you could code a pop up on screen calculator directly into mission script and it would work...haven't tried this but it gives you some idea of what i'm expecting to a greater or lesser degree from the game...

you can take it some where completely different..


anyhuw back to that surprise attack code i was asking about

heres the code for the brit sub spawning within torp range here set to occur after a set timer has expired

if
Alive [mysim]
then
GameTime [gt]
ifall
sameint [processed],$0
greater [gt],20
then
CreateServerSimulationObject [u2],"E34"
SimSetName [u2],"E-class"
SimSetPosition [u2],-200,200,200
SimSetStartSpeed [u2],15
AddStateEngine [u2]
AddStateItem [u2],"s:2"
AddStateItem [u2],"a:1,Course:10,20"
AddStateItem [u2],"a:1,Ramm:"
AddStateItem [u2],"a:1,FireAtWill:"
AddStateItem [u2],"c:0,1,EnemyVisible:5000"
AddStateItem [u2],"c:1,0,-EnemyVisible:8000"
setint [processed],$1
endif
endif


now the thing is that the location for the spawn

SimSetPosition [u2],-200,200,200


is relative to a setting allocated here

ChangeGeoPivot 10.312,54.554

so it's -200,200,200 form that point (which is lat long)

in one of the stock single missions (a test mission )

it shows this code

id mysim
int pl
float npos
phase init

ChangeGeoPivot 7,56
CreateSimulationObject [mysim],"u35"
ExtractPlayerID [pl],[mysim]
mul [npos] , [pl] , 100
#SimSetPosition [mysim],[npos],-10,0
SimSetPosition [mysim],-200,-0,100
SimSetDirection [mysim],0,0,0
SimSetStartSpeed [mysim],5
BindToController [mysim]
EveryFrame

endphase
end


where iot appears to my eyes to be storing the player subs location in a float

[npos] i think here and referenceing it as a possible method of then setting the sub into the sim world at that location again in some form of respawn event..

SimSetPosition [mysim],[npos],-10,0

if we go back to my surpise attack code..

if i can find the correct method for using the above snippet
to replace the

SimSetPosition [u2],-200,200,200

i've used then the sub should appear in relation to the player subs location NOT the GeoPivot lat long location

i have absolutely no doubt this is perfectly acceptable to the game engine
tho with my very basic coding skills and the limited number of stock code examples available i haven't ferreted out the correct scripting method as yet..and i hate trail and erroring code work as it is genuinely hugely irritating and demanding ..dot in wrong place won't work stuff (as you know)

but this game engine can do this stuff standing on it's head....why?
because the code can...and the game runs the code without limitation get the code right and it will do it..if they had intended to limit the scope of the game engine they would not have used RAW non user friendly code to script it..they would have used the usual mission scripting techniques we are all so familiar with..

take a look at it.....i'm sure you'll agree

will answer some other stuff a bit later

the issue with hydrophones and the lack of danger is related to the fact that as soon as you dive you become undetectable to the DD's (with scope down etc)..so even if they have seen you and start dropping their DC's you are going to have to walk into the DC's your self as by the time they reach your last known location you are of course gone..

now then this is reason two why i want to hold and store the players location in a float or integrer or some dang thing.lol

as i can then TELL the DD where i am even whilst submerged and not in visual contact.. because it is raw code the game will not ask wether this is relevant or not .. i can script go to the players current location ...
once that is achieved.. i can then elaborate on it
i can then script

if this
then go to player location

and then randomise it to generate a perfectly convincing set of hydrophones....further down the line it can be limited by distance affected by sea state weather..and so on..

if weather this
if sea state that.
if distance the other..

i don't need to tell you this! you allready know!

the only possible issue i can see right now is that i have not as yet found a direct command to order the DD to drop dcs..and that not all the other stuff would be the problem...the dd can be told to go to the players location under a set of dynamic conditons...simulating the detection with hydrophones...but can it be prompted to attack something which it cannot "see"
there might be the limitation..as this would be a game specific command ..not raw VB code

Do you know if all units get detected as soon as they appear on the maximum visibility range or can they be made detectable much below this range ?

What do this code lines means exactly ?

AddStateItem [u2],"c:0,1,EnemyVisible:5000"
AddStateItem [u2],"c:1,0,-EnemyVisible:8000"

i think the ranges refer to the maximum detection range in and out again under ideal conditions..

and im pretty sure tho could be wrong that they refer to the distance at which the enemy detects the player rather than the other way round..
using the weather ie fog you can create circumstances where the distances are far shorter obviously..and this creates some very dangerous situations for the player...as the AI does not always react in a predicatable manner when it spots you...and this is really rather splendid in it's own way..it's almost as if both the player and the AI hhave an exclamation mark above their heads and the first to suss out what to do next wins..LOL...last time this happened i was trying to figure out why the warship wasn't firing it's main guns at me when i blew up having been hit by one of it's torps lol... it knew i was allready dead so why waste the main gun ammunition LOL..i dunno?? was quite a strange moment...staring at this DD thru the binoculars lol

the issue with devising a hack for a "submerged" sub model file is that it is unneccesary.(this isn't SH3..lol)...you can script the spawning sub directly into the mission file.. it works..all i ned is to tie the spawn point to the player current location..and i KNOW the game will allow this..it is a trivial small piece of code...as i say write the code it'll run it for you..but code is code so it needs to be exact..i aint good at exact,,but i'll get it eventualy...sooner or later one idea i try will work.. and then it's on to the next thing...

heck going back to the WW2 destroyer escort behaviuor..you can get the DD's to spell out your name if you want them to...and then do it back wards holding hands...then perform formation ball room dancing if your prepared to work the thing thru !lol...i kid you not

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by CB..

without any doubt at all the scripting can support this sort of stuff...

It would be surprising if it wouldn't since this is the most basic function you can have in a 3D environment. In the engine i use it would be as easy as:

Vector3 ship_position = player_ship_node->getPosition();

If it can be done in SOF scripting too then it must be in a simular way. Ever encountered the term vector in the files ?

I actually have no VB experience whatsoever. I don't know how similar it is to C++. But i guess similar. I have to check my library.

this is what turned me on to the uniqueness of the game..normally they take the code and water it down to the bare essentails and then you gets your add -on mission editors etc etc ..but with this game it's all done with sheer raw unadultered code....with very few exceptions ..there are some game specific commands etc..

Yeah, they hit the deadline and had no time anymore to water it down, i guess

so that means more or less that if you can code it... the game will run it...almost without restriction...i'm betting you could code a pop up on screen calculator directly into mission script and it would work...haven't tried this but it gives you some idea of what i'm expecting to a greater or lesser degree from the game...

Lol, lets wait and see what it can actually do. Although i understand your excitement.

heres the code for the brit sub spawning within torp range here set to occur after a set timer has expired

if
Alive [mysim]
then
GameTime [gt]
ifall
sameint [processed],$0
greater [gt],20
then
CreateServerSimulationObject [u2],"E34"
SimSetName [u2],"E-class"
SimSetPosition [u2],-200,200,200
SimSetStartSpeed [u2],15
AddStateEngine [u2]
AddStateItem [u2],"s:2"
AddStateItem [u2],"a:1,Course:10,20"
AddStateItem [u2],"a:1,Ramm:"
AddStateItem [u2],"a:1,FireAtWill:"
AddStateItem [u2],"c:0,1,EnemyVisible:5000"
AddStateItem [u2],"c:1,0,-EnemyVisible:8000"
setint [processed],$1
endif
endif

Have you figured out already what each of the elements in each statement means ?

What exactly do mysim and sameint stands for ??

What means the a's, the s and c's in the AddStateItem commands ?

now the thing is that the location for the spawn

SimSetPosition [u2],-200,200,200

is relative to a setting allocated here

ChangeGeoPivot 10.312,54.554

so it's -200,200,200 form that point (which is lat long)

You told above that you made a surprise attack script that works only at the beginning of a mission. Where the sub attacked 20 minutes after starting the game. But the sub appears then relative to the sub position or relative to ChangeGeoPivot ?

So essentially ChangeGeoPivot is for setting the start location of the mission.

in one of the stock single missions (a test mission )

it shows this code

id mysim
int pl
float npos
phase init

ChangeGeoPivot 7,56
CreateSimulationObject [mysim],"u35"
ExtractPlayerID [pl],[mysim]
mul [npos] , [pl] , 100
#SimSetPosition [mysim],[npos],-10,0
SimSetPosition [mysim],-200,-0,100
SimSetDirection [mysim],0,0,0
SimSetStartSpeed [mysim],5
BindToController [mysim]
EveryFrame

endphase
end


where iot appears to my eyes to be storing the player subs location in a float

You cannot store the position in a float value because float is only one value and for the position you need 3 values. So you would need 3 floats to store all coordinates.

In this context the statements appear to my mystery frankly.

[npos] i think here and referenceing it as a possible method of then setting the sub into the sim world at that location again in some form of respawn event..

SimSetPosition [mysim],[npos],-10,0

If we would only knew what the mul statement is for.

And why do the

#SimSetPosition [mysim],[npos],-10,0

gives only 2 values to describe the position ? It also appears to me commented out. It is probably an incomplete statement or something. Could be a function that was never completed.

Usually when there is an But this would be quite an awekward way to get the player sub position. SimSetPosition then there should be also a SimGetPosition (if the devs were any sane). And should work maybe something like:

float x
float y
float z

SimGetPosition [mysim], x, y, z

I mean as a trial an error, you can try this code snipped out. Good luck

I am wondering though whether mysim would be the right way to reffer to the players boat.

if
Alive [mysim]

kinda suggest this. But i don't know. Try it out

i have absolutely no doubt this is perfectly acceptable to the game engine

Don't be too sure about it. Game engines have sometimes blatant flaws, making you wonder what was going on the heads of the devs.

The question is do the engine needs this function at all ? Actually yes, how else are vehicles supposed to be spawned relative to the players position. Well that is what you should look for. There must be some script lines that do this somewhere. But this could be a hardcoded part. Since it doesn't make sense to let appear an enemy unit magically right next to you, despite far viewing range.

So i am wondering why the devs would want to make it possible to set this via script, since all units appear on the boarder of the visual range. This makes this function in scripts superfluous. So hypothetical this function isn't needed in the scrpts and thus is possible not available.

If the SimGetPosition do not work then it is possible not available, since getPosition and setPosition are the most common functions in all engines.

tho with my very basic coding skills and the limited number of stock code examples available i haven't ferreted out the correct scripting method as yet..and i hate trail and erroring code work as it is genuinely hugely irritating and demanding ..dot in wrong place won't work stuff (as you know)

The total lack of comments in the scripts that explain what a codeline actually do is what scared me away to even try it. Because to figure out all of this stuff on your own would be a pain in the a$$

And so many files in SOF are so damn cryptical. They must have been in serious hurry.

Well i will take a look at it again. But i don't want to make any promesses.

the issue with hydrophones and the lack of danger is related to the fact that as soon as you dive you become undetectable to the DD's (with scope down etc)..so even if they have seen you and start dropping their DC's you are going to have to walk into the DC's your self as by the time they reach your last known location you are of course gone..

now then this is reason two why i want to hold and store the players location in a float or integrer or some dang thing.lol

For stuff like hydrophones you need to be able to read out not only the position but also things like speed of the boat and maybe also other things like sea state. You need to be able to compute the distance to the sub in order to retrieve the signal to noise ration. Is calculating possible at all in the scripts ? Are statements like a = 2 + 2 possible at all ?

the only possible issue i can see right now is that i have not as yet found a direct command to order the DD to drop dcs..and that not all the other stuff would be the problem...the dd can be told to go to the players location under a set of dynamic conditons...simulating the detection with hydrophones...but can it be prompted to attack something which it cannot "see"
there might be the limitation..as this would be a game specific command ..not raw VB code

That is my point. There need an assesment to be done first about what you can actually do with scripts and what not. Don't get too hiped to fast. Check it out first.

[CB..]

If we would only knew what the mul statement is for.

And why do the

#SimSetPosition [mysim],[npos],-10,0

gives only 2 values to describe the position ? It also appears to me commented out. It is probably an incomplete statement or something. Could be a function that was never completed.

Usually when there is an But this would be quite an awekward way to get the player sub position. SimSetPosition then there should be also a SimGetPosition (if the devs were any sane). And should work maybe something like:

float x
float y
float z

SimGetPosition [mysim], x, y, z

I mean as a trial an error, you can try this code snipped out. Good luck

I am wondering though whether mysim would be the right way to reffer to the players boat.

if
Alive [mysim]

kinda suggest this. But i don't know. Try it out

ok here we are getting some where..

the game uses

GetSimPosition

i discovered to day

and also the float x y and z.. i will try it out tommorrow...

What exactly do mysim and sameint stands for ??

What means the a's, the s and c's in the AddStateItem commands ?

mysim is the id name for the player submarine.. tho it doesn't need to be called mysim you declare the player subs name at the top of each mission script thusly

id mysim

or

id donaldduck

it doesn't seem to mind what you call it which is as you'd expect with the raw code

in fact there are some working missions where the player sub isn't even included in the mission code at all...i have NO IDEA how the hell that works..

the a's and c's etc in the stateengine entrys i'm still only guessing at...that's what makes it as you say so tricky...only a partial understanding of what does what..so it's really irritating to work out

Don't be too sure about it. Game engines have sometimes blatant flaws, making you wonder what was going on the heads of the devs.

The question is do the engine needs this function at all ? Actually yes, how else are vehicles supposed to be spawned relative to the players position. Well that is what you should look for. There must be some script lines that do this somewhere. But this could be a hardcoded part. Since it doesn't make sense to let appear an enemy unit magically right next to you, despite far viewing range.

So i am wondering why the devs would want to make it possible to set this via script, since all units appear on the boarder of the visual range. This makes this function in scripts superfluous. So hypothetical this function isn't needed in the scrpts and thus is possible not available.

If the SimGetPosition do not work then it is possible not available, since getPosition and setPosition are the most common functions in all engines.

i get the very clear impression that the devs just left the door wide open and didn't place and restrictions deliberately into the games code..dunno just instinct really..you get a feel for these things.... the fact i can change the weather mid mission even tho this involves swopping the entire sky dome texture and sea state etc etc was an indication of this..i was slightly surprised this actualy worked..was expecting a crash

the range at which the vessels spawn seems to be dependant on the type of trigger used for the event...and what sort of script it uses for the vessels subsequent behaviuor...some vessels spawn thousands of miles away and never come near to the player at all unles you go to the vessels (if you see what i mean)
so it's a case of the player being near to a lat long location which triggers the spawn...the actual vessel spawn location can be any where on the map...which you would think would solve the problem ..

i think with a game engine that runs this sort of more generic VB style code..that it will as a rule accept any correctly written piece of code as long as it isn't directly told not to run it ..so such things as the RANDOM and IRANDOM ..INTS etc etc once you say it's ok to use these commands then it doesn't really care what you randomise..within reason..etc

For stuff like hydrophones you need to be able to read out not only the position but also things like speed of the boat and maybe also other things like sea state. You need to be able to compute the distance to the sub in order to retrieve the signal to noise ration. Is calculating possible at all in the scripts ? Are statements like a = 2 + 2 possible at all ?

the point here is that you don't need to get too fancy to generate a satsisfying illusion of an hydrophone sensor...simply telling the Dd to go to the players current location with the chances of this happening controled by a dice roll would to all the world appear to be perfectly acceptable whilst actualy playing the game....indeed sometime the most simple randomised sensor like this can and often does produce the most dynamic and unpredictable and there fore interesting gameplay

and i ain't running for any university degree here just a gameplay addition...the simple dice roll is dang near allways the most enjoyable..it allows the imagination to run riot...why did the DD do that??? etc etc you know what i mean...i think folks forget that sometimes in a desperate search for what they hope is some form of realism..anyhuw that lack of any obviuos drop dc's command may scupper that particular idea...tho i'd bet there is some way to do it..

That is my point. There need an assesment to be done first about what you can actually do with scripts and what not. Don't get too hiped to fast. Check it out first.

if you don't get excited...what's the point in doing it?


i fly by the seat of my pants with this stuff...beacuse i only really do it for fun..

i don't really expect to be wrong on this ...there is so much basic mechanical code written into the scripts..(you can examine the code for the mission generator in the scripts....and that really says it all......the in game mission generator....wait for it....IS JUST A MISSION SCRIPT running VB code lol....well it kinda says something that...

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by CB..

ok here we are getting some where..

the game uses

GetSimPosition

i discovered to day

What ? Where ?

Is such a command somewhere in any scripts or have you tried it out by trial and error ?

And is it GetSimPosition or SimGetPosition ?

mysim is the id name for the player submarine.. tho it doesn't need to be called mysim you declare the player subs name at the top of each mission script thusly

id mysim

or

id donaldduck

Yes, just figure this out from the scripts.

i get the very clear impression that the devs just left the door wide open

I hope this for you and SOF

the range at which the vessels spawn seems to be dependant on the type of trigger used for the event...and what sort of script it uses for the vessels subsequent behaviuor...some vessels spawn thousands of miles away and never come near to the player at all unles you go to the vessels (if you see what i mean)
so it's a case of the player being near to a lat long location which triggers the spawn...the actual vessel spawn location can be any where on the map...which you would think would solve the problem ..

I mean have you seen any case where an anemy vessel or any other vessel or object got spawned closer than the actual visual range ?

i think with a game engine that runs this sort of more generic VB style code..that it will as a rule accept any correctly written piece of code as long as it isn't directly told not to run it

It is actually vice versa. It will accept any code it supports.

..so such things as the RANDOM and IRANDOM ..INTS etc etc once you say it's ok to use these commands then it doesn't really care what you randomise..within reason..etc

Right.

the point here is that you don't need to get too fancy to generate a satsisfying illusion of an hydrophone sensor...

Hell, yes. If there is no other way then yes. But this of course takes away the predictable aspect of a real simulation and will screw your planning and counter measures. I for example make heavy use of often meticulous planning.

simply telling the Dd to go to the players current location with the chances of this happening controled by a dice roll

Yes and also add some random values to the players position to avoid super DD's. However once you start to implement such a thing you will usually run into problems that you haven't seen before, as i can tell you from my coding experience. For example: The player lay the boat ont he ground and shut off all engines but because of the rolling dice the DD's keep finding you and the player will indeed wonder how they could find him.

Reading out ship speed would be the minimum neccesary thing to get any satisfying results imo. And it will also require the support of basic math operations like + - * /

Have you tryed them yet ? DO SOF scripting support it ?

and i ain't running for any university degree here just a gameplay addition...the simple dice roll is dang near allways the most enjoyable..it allows the imagination to run riot...why did the DD do that??? etc etc you know what i mean...

Hell yes. This would be good for the imagination. I mean untill the players figure out that the DD's actually use cheats + random function. Then all the players will come after you

if you don't get excited...what's the point in doing it?

i fly by the seat of my pants with this stuff...beacuse i only really do it for fun..

Right. Actually i love it to be excited and i am so often in my own project when something new got finished. Feels like being a kid at chrismas getting up in the morning running for the tree to rip of the present boxes to see what nice things are in there

But i guess after all i was disappointed to often and gave it up on moding other games.

i don't really expect to be wrong on this ...there is so much basic mechanical code written into the scripts..(you can examine the code for the mission generator in the scripts....and that really says it all......the in game mission generator....wait for it....IS JUST A MISSION SCRIPT running VB code lol....well it kinda says something that...

Where is that code for the mission generator ?

[CB..]

What ? Where ?

Is such a command somewhere in any scripts or have you tried it out by trial and error ?

And is it GetSimPosition or SimGetPosition ?

it's getsimposition

it's in the games EXE file..tho that is no garantuee it works of course..

tried it in variuos different methods none worked most crashed the game on mission load..
BUT the game uses it's own "shorthand" methods as well as raw code..the shorthand being just an abreviation of a larger block of raw code ...

here's one of the scripts for the mission generator

it's ClientScript1000.txt in the scripts folder


id mysim
float sx
float sz
float dy
int own

phase init
GetMenuSelection [own],"MGenerator\own"
random [sx],-300,600
random [sz],-300,600
random [dy],-2,4
if
sameint [own],$1
then
CreateSimulationObject [mysim],"ufp"
endif
if
sameint [own],$2
then
CreateSimulationObject [mysim],"u35"
endif
if
sameint [own],$3
then
CreateSimulationObject [mysim],"ub-I"
endif
if
sameint [own],$4
then
CreateSimulationObject [mysim],"uc-II"
endif

SimSetPosition [mysim],[sx],0,[sz]
SimSetDirection [mysim],[dy],0,0
BindToController [mysim]
EveryFrame
Permanent
endphase
end

note all that floated simsetposition stuff
and the randomisation within paremters set at the top..
check also ServerScript1000.txt for other mission generator code

the game also uses shorthand for some relationships between vessels seen here

beginblock
setint [order1], $0
setint [order2], $0
setint [order3], $0
setint [feind1], $0
setint [feind2], $0
setint [feind3], $0
if
Alive [ship1]
then
GetENEMY [feind1],[ship1]
endif
if
alive [ship2]
then
Getenemy [feind2],[ship2]
endif
if
alive [ship3]
then
Getenemy [feind3],[ship3]
endif
endblock

have used this for triggering events when [MYSIM] gets within visual range of [U2]
tho it's not clear what is exactly what there..but it works

I mean have you seen any case where an anemy vessel or any other vessel or object got spawned closer than the actual visual range ?

yes my surprise attack brit sub script has the enemy sub appearing just off the players beam well within torpedo and visual range..it's happy to do this..

Yes and also add some random values to the players position to avoid super DD's. However once you start to implement such a thing you will usually run into problems that you haven't seen before, as i can tell you from my coding experience. For example: The player lay the boat ont he ground and shut off all engines but because of the rolling dice the DD's keep finding you and the player will indeed wonder how they could find him.

Reading out ship speed would be the minimum neccesary thing to get any satisfying results imo. And it will also require the support of basic math operations like + - * /

Have you tryed them yet ? DO SOF scripting support it ?

haven't tried any more advancved code work as i say i AM a very basic coder..very basic indeed you'll have to experiment with that side for you rself..i'm struggling with this simple stuff enough to start with...you'd be surprised at just how hard it is to get genuinely straight forward beginner code tutorials...so hard in fact i gave up looking a long time agao...all you get is
do it like this...then a whole bunch of code you cannot even remotely understand then an argument when you ask for a beginnrers way of doing something similar...lets face it most code just turns stuff off and on...there are no beginner tutorials...only mid levels ones...learn't that almost as soon as i started a couple of years ago....every thing i've learnt has been by accident or from sheer trail and error...or by spotting some simplistic snippet of code that i could extract from more complicated stuff and use as a tool to do a basic job..

yup on the DD's and hydrophones ..if it can be persuaded into compliance lol then with testing the issues will present them selves very quickly..and so also will the soloutions..simply setting a timer (ala SH3) to set a maximum time limit for the DD's attack...sending it away after such and such a time....with the limited depth for the subs any serious DC attack is going to be pretty scary stuff ..so you set a timer for the "go to player's location" so there is a delay between the DD reading your location and it actualy going there..allowing some chance of escape...and so on...also makes the player feel he has some part to play in tactics...frankly in SH3 etc even tho folks talk for hours about tactics in surviving DC attacks there are in fact no tatctic at all involved...you go deep wiggle about a bit go slow go fast wiggle about a bit more...do this for the allotted 3 hours (and it is allways 3 hours you can set you watch by it) then the DD's just go away...gawd is it DULL and it's identical every single time absolutely identical...if that's tactical i'll take random any day lol!! if you see what i mean..

It is actually vice versa. It will accept any code it supports

that's the rub...if the game supports VB code ..code that can be seen in a thousand generic programs and applications and is used in such a mechanical manner to opertae the basic functions of the game then limiting it in any real sense just doesn't add up..why bother it isn't code that has been designed for the game it's code that is used just about everywhere...

funny thing about the hydrophones etc isthat there is one enemy "vessel" that does come equiped with extra sensory percpetion..and thats the aircraft...i'm not clear if this is beacuse of the wway they are scripted or wether it is more deeply coded via the exe ....

during an aircraft attack...if you dive no matter how long you stay under or how deep you go or where you go..the aircraft will continue to circle directly over head..you cannot lose them ..you have to surface and shoot them down..

so there's the two thing operating in one instance...tracking the player whilst submerged...and passing the players location to an enemy "vessel"
will look at it again and see if i can peel the relevant behavoiur of the planes and slap it on some thing else..that would provide insight into what might be tthe best way to proceed ..if possible..

tho i have to admit now i have introduced weather changes including fog intot he campaign there is now a very definite sense of danger in the gameplay..and getting killed by a DD or such like in fog is a pretty regular occurance so maybe it isn't such a high priority any more..most folks think weather is just eye candy......how wrong can they be???...been trying to tell them for years...trouble is there are no rivets to count on a fog bank..

[bsalyers]

I'm not a code guru like many of you guys; I'm just commenting on the gameplay here.

I was just detected by a fishing trawler while approaching submerged, at dusk, at a distance of 3.8 nautical miles!


Whatever one's justification, this seems patently ridiculous.

I'm not saying it's impossible to approach; as noted elsewhere in this forum, it's relatively easy to approach a ship and sink it while using the scope briefly and intermittently. I just find it a real immersion-killer to have to worry about supernatural lookouts when the only thing I'm exposing is my periscope and the target is still a miniscule speck on the horizon.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by bsalyers

I was just detected by a fishing trawler while approaching submerged, at dusk, at a distance of 3.8 nautical miles!


Whatever one's justification, this seems patently ridiculous.

Well, this is one of the issues with SOF. It also works vice versa sometimes. You get contact reports while submerged and the periscope not even being up.

The expectations for this game should be better rather low.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by bsalyers

I'm not a code guru like many of you guys; I'm just commenting on the gameplay here.

I was just detected by a fishing trawler while approaching submerged, at dusk, at a distance of 3.8 nautical miles!


Whatever one's justification, this seems patently ridiculous.

I'm not saying it's impossible to approach; as noted elsewhere in this forum, it's relatively easy to approach a ship and sink it while using the scope briefly and intermittently. I just find it a real immersion-killer to have to worry about supernatural lookouts when the only thing I'm exposing is my periscope and the target is still a miniscule speck on the horizon.

you got your self spotted at around 7000 metres??
that's the key you know.. YOU got YOURSELF spotted at 7000 metres...just out side maximum torpedo range??
i'm not here to defend the games idiosyncracies of which there are many lol
but that's what it boils down too..you ALLOWED your self to be spotted at 7000 metres because you didn't follow the correct scope depth approach procedures...and all that overly serious BS

wether you view it as realism ,gameplay or just plain weird..that's what happened

[bsalyers]

I don't buy it. As there are NO conceivable circumstances that would enable ANY normal human being to spot a periscope (the only part of the sub that was exposed) at 7000 metres in twilight, and as I was following correct scope depth approach procedures - for real world physics - I cannot accept responsibility for being sighted. If you are saying that I broke the rules for the unrealistic physics of the game and got caught at it, well, yes, obviously, that's what happened. I will still maintain that a detail so bizarrely unrealistic is not an option; it's not a feature - it's a flaw.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by bsalyers

I don't buy it. As there are NO conceivable circumstances that would enable ANY normal human being to spot a periscope (the only part of the sub that was exposed) at 7000 metres in twilight, and as I was following correct scope depth approach procedures - for real world physics - I cannot accept responsibility for being sighted. If you are saying that I broke the rules for the unrealistic physics of the game and got caught at it, well, yes, obviously, that's what happened. I will still maintain that a detail so bizarrely unrealistic is not an option; it's not a feature - it's a flaw.

ah yup.....i guess that covers everything then...

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by CB..

it's getsimposition

it's in the games EXE file..tho that is no garantuee it works of course..

In the games EXE ? what do you mean ? how have you seen it in the exe ?

I mean the exe is hardcoded.

tried it in variuos different methods none worked most crashed the game on mission load..

That doesn't surprises me.

BUT the game uses it's own "shorthand" methods as well as raw code..the shorthand being just an abreviation of a larger block of raw code ...

Yeah, this is what is essentially called a function call

note all that floated simsetposition stuff
and the randomisation within paremters set at the top..

the float simsetpositions are used here to store the result of random operations. But this still doesn't make it possible to read out the player subs position.

yes my surprise attack brit sub script has the enemy sub appearing just off the players beam well within torpedo and visual range..it's happy to do this..

You told that you set the sub to appear 20 minutes after the game start and you said that you can set the sub only relative to ChangeGeoPivot right ?

So wouldn't that mean that the players sub would be gone 20 minutes before your E34 appears and thus miss the attack by 20 minutes ?

haven't tried any more advancved code work as i say i AM a very basic coder..very basic indeed

lol,

float a

a = 2 + 2

is actually very VERY basic!

you'll have to experiment with that side for you rself..

btw:

Yesterday, I have looked through dozens of scripts now and i feel even more confirmed that it is not possible to set objects relative to the players sub. Everything seem to revolve around the ChangeGeoPivot position. So the only way i see is to set the subs position relative to it. But as you said the player will see it long comming before it can make any attack on the player. So i fear you will need an properly operating enemy sub. And all you can do is then to spawn it into a certain location but certainly not relative to the players position. If it is possible then it is not documented or used in any of the scripts. Games have sometimes unused and undocumented functions. But they way the scripts are done i figure that this is simple not possible.

And you certainly cannot code a calculator ontop of the game screen

I am sorry to disappoit you but you maybe grossly overestimate SOF's scripting power. I fear i have also overestimated it in my longer post above, after hearing you talking about. It is nowhere even close to the scripting power of operation flashpoint for example. On a second look it all appears to me rather as very normal scripting. there are only very basic orders given and there are no math operations done in any of the scripts, so i would figure it is not possible, since the purpose the scripts seem to be done for it is not needed for SOF. You can do a few nice things but the apparent lack of possibilites to read out even the most basic ship data of any given vehicle pretty much puts the final nail into its coffin. Only the devs could prove otherwise as i see no tangible hint in the scripts for such possebilities. It really wouldn't be a deal at all to add this functionality in the scripting language.

This all is another pitty for SOF. But the devs seems to not have made anything really right.

I guess you will have to wait after all, till i am done with IUF

I think i will not go further into it sicne it's pretty clear to me where its limits are. But i don't mind to continue to support you if you like to bother with it.

I also tried to do some math operations in the script file of the mission editor and as expected it do not work.

i'm struggling with this simple stuff enough to start with...you'd be surprised at just how hard it is to get genuinely straight forward beginner code tutorials...

I am not surprized at all. That is pretty much how it was for me as well. It needed me 3 attempts before i finally got it rolling. But after that i was flying high.

I still have a hard time with some books. They seem to be written for people who already know this subject, lol.

so hard in fact i gave up looking a long time agao...all you get is
do it like this...then a whole bunch of code you cannot even remotely understand then an argument when you ask for a beginnrers way of doing something similar...lets face it most code just turns stuff off and on...there are no beginner tutorials...only mid levels ones...learn't that almost as soon as i started a couple of years ago....every thing i've learnt has been by accident or from sheer trail and error...or by spotting some simplistic snippet of code that i could extract from more complicated stuff and use as a tool to do a basic job..

Oh yes, i can well remember this frustration being overwhelmed by complex examples and abstract code that made you brain bleed.

I also had an extrem hard time to move from C to C++ but then i was pointed to Bruce Eckels books that seem to be a shining exception. While the other books felt like like eating stones, this one goes down like butter

Boy he knows how to explain stuff. This is the first book where i finally understood what the languages were about and what their difference was and stuff. By reading this books the subject do not appear to me that complex and abstract anymore. Actually it is now very naturally. He also resign from complex mind suffocating examples and keep it straight forward. This guy is a genius. I mean this are the first books that made me really understand the language.

I also found a C ++ tutorial that was written really for beginners and also went down like butter and made me this language accessable the first time. If you would be still interested i could send you them.

.do this for the allotted 3 hours (and it is allways 3 hours you can set you watch by it) then the DD's just go away...gawd is it DULL and it's identical every single time absolutely identical...if that's tactical i'll take random any day lol!! if you see what i mean..

You see ? This is another reason to do your own sim

You just don't get the right thing. It's hope less.

that's the rub...if the game supports VB code ..code that can be seen in a thousand generic programs and applications and is used in such a mechanical manner to opertae the basic functions of the game then limiting it in any real sense just doesn't add up..why bother it isn't code that has been designed for the game it's code that is used just about everywhere...

I fear you are horrobly off with the idea that SOF supports VB. It would need to come with a compiler and linker and all the libs, dll's and .h's that are needed to compile the code. This all is simple not needed for the needs of SOF. Imagine the development overkill if you would like to support a language in a game via scripts. It simple doesn't makes sense. All the scripting language is supposed to do is to call some hardcoded functions in the game and feed them with some data. And that's it.

What you see in SOF is simple a scripting language that might have some similarities with VB in its appearance. The actual compiled SOF code reads it out and interpret it as it was programmed for. But it could also be that the devs have used one of the scripting languages like Python or Lua but i haven't dealt with them yet so i cannot comment on this.

funny thing about the hydrophones etc isthat there is one enemy "vessel" that does come equiped with extra sensory percpetion..and thats the aircraft...i'm not clear if this is beacuse of the wway they are scripted or wether it is more deeply coded via the exe ....

btw have you noticed in that one single mission where you have to ensure the save return of the Seydlitz that you operate with a friendly boat U 66 ? It actually dives and and moves to the enemy. I don't know if it shoots too but it's there and it can dive. Maybe you can somehow incorporate it in your mods but the script of this mission doesn't seem to include it or any of the other units in that mission. It must be hardcoded or something.

during an aircraft attack...if you dive no matter how long you stay under or how deep you go or where you go..the aircraft will continue to circle directly over head..you cannot lose them ..you have to surface and shoot them down..

That extra sensor must be a crystal ball.

Nuke them! Hey do you think you could mod a nuke into SOF ?

so there's the two thing operating in one instance...tracking the player whilst submerged...and passing the players location to an enemy "vessel"
will look at it again and see if i can peel the relevant behavoiur of the planes and slap it on some thing else..that would provide insight into what might be tthe best way to proceed ..if possible..

Good luck.

tho i have to admit now i have introduced weather changes including fog intot he campaign there is now a very definite sense of danger in the gameplay..and getting killed by a DD or such like in fog is a pretty regular occurance so maybe it isn't such a high priority any more..most folks think weather is just eye candy......how wrong can they be???...been trying to tell them for years...trouble is there are no rivets to count on a fog bank..

btw do you see anyway to mod the diving time ? It's to fast for the early war time.

[CB..]

I am sorry to disappoit you but you maybe grossly overestimate SOF's scripting power. I fear i have also overestimated it in my longer post above, after hearing you talking about. It is nowhere even close to the scripting power of operation flashpoint for example. On a second look it all appears to me rather as very normal scripting. there are only very basic orders given and there are no math operations done in any of the scripts, so i would figure it is not possible, since the purpose the scripts seem to be done for it is not needed for SOF. You can do a few nice things but the apparent lack of possibilites to read out even the most basic ship data of any given vehicle pretty much puts the final nail into its coffin. Only the devs could prove otherwise as i see no tangible hint in the scripts for such possebilities. It really wouldn't be a deal at all to add this functionality in the scripting language.

This all is another pitty for SOF. But the devs seems to not have made anything really right.

I guess you will have to wait after all, till i am done with IUF

kinda figured the conversation was a waste of time...lol
IUF..??? at the current rate of production i will almost certainly be long dead and buried (quite literaly) by the time you actualy finish IUF..lol

your wrong of course....about nearly everything sadly...not that it matters!!

bit of a wind up merchant in fact lol....

In the games EXE ? what do you mean ? how have you seen it in the exe ?

I mean the exe is hardcoded.

you don't know how to look in an exe file with a hex editor??

nuff said..wind up

sorry to sound a bit rude...but i trust my instincts ..doesn't matter how many people say other wise ..and BOY do they allways say other wise...that won't work ..you can't do that..that isn't possible on and on and on....i damn near allways even with my extremely basic ability..manage to make it work...strange that ...sigh...i just get fed up hearing the same old drone..

lol,

float a

a = 2 + 2

is actually very VERY basic!

EVERYTHING is advanced UNTILL you know HOW to do it lol... EVERYTHING...remember??


try this from the generator code

GetMenuSelection [year],"MGenerator\year"
add [fyear],[year],1913.0
irandom [day],$2,$1b
StartDate [fyear],[month],[day]
GetMenuSelection [daytime],"MGenerator\daytime"
CalcStartTime [daytime]


i don't need to be able to WRITE this code to SEE that what it is capable of... what ever you think of it it is in another universe entirely from SH3/4 etc...

we haven't even touched on the kisetcommands

KiSetCommand [ship3],$4,1000,3.14,0,[ship2]
KiSetCommand [ship1],$b,7500,0,0,$0
KiSetCommand [ship2],$b,7500,0,0,$0
KiSetCommand [ship3],$b,7500,0,0,$0

i allways work on the principle that what you see on the surface is only a fraction of what actualy can be done...

and with SOF what you see on the surface is actualy quadruple what is entirely available with other sims..

this is in fact the basic first rule of modding...

extrapolate what CAN be done...not what CAN'T be done...this requires a positive mind set...not a negative one...by default..and if in the end what ever it is your trying to do indeed cannot be done....then nothing has been lost and a whole lot gained by making the serious attempt...etc

like i say i do this for fun...and out of curiosity..to every-one else it appears to be some form of bizaare "ego" competition...
i don't have anything to prove here...if i pass the ball..and other people don't pick it up or drop the ball then that is not my problem...i have contributed what I COULD do...what other people contribute, positive or negative, is their affair lol

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by CB..

kinda figured the conversation was a waste of time...lol

Well, then lets stop it. It hurts me to waste your time.

IUF..??? at the current rate of production i will almost certainly be long dead and buried (quite literaly) by the time you actualy finish IUF..lol

lol, that was a joke actually. But never mind. I wouldn't get anywhere with an attitude like this.

btw are you really that old ?

your wrong of course....about nearly everything sadly...not that it matters!!

Looking forward to the day where you make VB code running on SOF

you don't know how to look in an exe file with a hex editor??

Sure i know and did it back then. But it's so long back i almost forgot about it. I have no use for this today.

nuff said..wind up

yup

sorry to sound a bit rude...but i trust my instincts ..doesn't matter how many people say other wise ..and BOY do they allways say other wise...that won't work ..you can't do that..that isn't possible on and on and on....i damn near allways even with my extremely basic ability..manage to make it work...strange that ...sigh...i just get fed up hearing the same old drone..

Well, when you look in detail into something you will always finde some ways to get out of it more. My point however was, after looking through the scripts i figure that the possibilities are nowhere near as what you have adverticed. I didn't say you can't get more out of it.

EVERYTHING is advanced UNTILL you know HOW to do it lol... EVERYTHING...remember??

I am sure you know what the code snipped above means, don't you ?

try this from the generator code

GetMenuSelection [year],"MGenerator\year"
add [fyear],[year],1913.0
irandom [day],$2,$1b
StartDate [fyear],[month],[day]
GetMenuSelection [daytime],"MGenerator\daytime"
CalcStartTime [daytime]

What exactly am i suppose to try ? The add command ?

Tried it, could make it at least not throwing me out of the mission but i still cannot make much sense of it. I also do not want spend many hours with trial and error. I leave this up to more motivated people. I am too busy with my own sim anyway.

i don't need to be able to WRITE this code to SEE that what it is capable of... what ever you think of it it is in another universe entirely from SH3/4 etc...

That it has scripting possebilities at all is actually REALLY great. And that sets it indeed kinda appart from the usual stuff. But after looking into the scripts, I just don't see it as powerfull anymore as you seem to believe it to be. Sorry.

we haven't even touched on the kisetcommands

KiSetCommand [ship3],$4,1000,3.14,0,[ship2]
KiSetCommand [ship1],$b,7500,0,0,$0
KiSetCommand [ship2],$b,7500,0,0,$0
KiSetCommand [ship3],$b,7500,0,0,$0

Looked into them too. The commands are the usual standard commands like go to here, set such speed, attack, run away. Not much more than this. But frankly what more can a ship do ? lol

i allways work on the principle that what you see on the surface is only a fraction of what actualy can be done...

this is in fact the basic first rule of modding...

extrapolate what CAN be done...not what CAN'T be done...this requires a positive mind set...not a negative one...by default..and if in the end what ever it is your trying to do indeed cannot be done....then nothing has been lost and a whole lot gained by making the serious attempt...etc

This is a very good attitude i would say. And i have a similar attitude in my own project. Do your thing and don't bother what others say if you want to get somewhere.

and with SOF what you see on the surface is actualy quadruple what is entirely available with other sims..

This is the part where i am not so sure about but still i am curious what you will be able to get out of it.

like i say i do this for fun...and out of curiosity..to every-one else it appears to be some form of bizaare "ego" competition...
i don't have anything to prove here...if i pass the ball..and other people don't pick it up or drop the ball then that is not my problem...i have contributed what I COULD do...what other people contribute, positive or negative, is their affair lol

Be my guest.

Deamon