Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The EU is what makes nationaloiusts and radicals strong with its arrogant and intransparent behavior, its nepotist policies and corrupt lobbies.

Not disagreeing.

It strikes me how one can complain about states and that they would go to war immediately again - and then wanting to install an even bigger, greater, more tyrannic superstate. The states have been at the root of past wars, especially the really big ones. States are monopolists in violating rules and creating these rules afterwards to legalise their doing.

This is true, but it's trying to install a series of checks and balances to keep the states in line with each other so that none of them can find themselves in a position where war is the only option.

More regulation by those who already messed up until here. Sure, that must be the solution!

"We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

My reply is different: not miore but less statehood. Not more but less paternalism. Not more but less regulation. Not bigger, but smaller states. Not more obedience byx citizens towards the feudal elites hijacking states, but states and its administrative leader needing to fear citizens. Less taxing, much less taxing. More taxes staying where they have been risen instead of moviong them to a centralised controlling instance. Well, the classical canon of arguments from the Austrian school and classical libertarianism.

We've been down this road before, over many many many conversations and the gaping flaws of your theories and the likelihood of this micronation experiment folding back into a larger state has been put forward.
Tell me, when and where in history has such a place existed? And how long did it exist for?

I am not a nationalist. I am a zero-state-agent. And I certainly wnat today'S political caste being line dup against the wall, that is true. Since these antisocial parasites enjoy their ever increasing priveleges by protecting the system that feeds them, they will not let go voluntarily, we see that all the time - but we still must get rid of these. Do not vote for somebody anymore, vote him out of office, and he gets patronaged by his party and pops up somewhere else. The election principle fails in our voter-bribing-democracy (Christoph Braunschweig). Party-dynasties and a cast5e of feudal self-understanding have been installed. Laws and vlaue system have been tailored by these since decades to proptect thjeir interests and their influence and power. Play by their rules - and you are guaranteed to be dominated by them. Faces may come and go and change seats in various offices - the family of theirs, this deeply rotten, corrupted breed, always prevails.

Show me a system in history where it has not been this way? From Monarchy, to Democracy, to Fascism and Communism, the elite have always prayed upon the poor in every. single. political. system.

Europe - means plural, not singular. The diversity led to competition and innovation, this is what made Europe unique amongst world culture's place in history, influencing the human global civilsation more than any other.

It also lead to two world wars

Foster the diversity and allow regional differences to balance themselves out against each other all by private interaction of free private people.

Divide and conquer

Deny a new feudal caste to diactate half a billion people how they have to live, how they have to decide, and how they have to think. The EU has caused havoc with its growing cedntrelaism and increaisng powers.

Not disagreeing, there should definitely be an overhaul of how the EU works.

The Euro, forcing incompatible economie sinto the sdame frsamework, has destroyed social peace, has fostered nationbal ressentiments, and mutual abuse.

The Euro was definitely a mistake, not disagreeing there either.

Egoism spikes high again in the EU's European directorate. Old nationalistic trenches are opening up again due to its presumption. Economic lobbies as well as ideological lobbies have become more powerful than ever before under its protection. Bureaucracy is constantly increasing.

Bureaucracy increases in any political system the longer it exists.

The market is more heavily overregulated by planned than ever before, maybe with the exception of the planned economies in the USSR'S former sphere of influence. Europe is openly submitting to arch-socialist principles of power and erosion of economic key principles, even the most essential minimum of economic reason.

Not arguing either

And btw, the peace in Europe has not been brought and not been protected by the EU or its predecessor, but by the threat from the Sovjet Union, and NATO.

And what happens if the biggest member of NATO leaves Europe?

And the citizen'S sympathy for and approval of the eU is declining since years, and is at an all-time low.

The media hasn't helped with that much, they have smelt a good story and ran with it, but yes, the EU hasn't exactly helped either.

More of that, please! More centrlasied power! More monopoly for one state! More planned economy! More regulation! More pltical Führer of thje like we have already and that already cost us dearly! Long live the European superstate! Long live the EUSSR! Do swidanja, liberty! We do not need the Sovjets to repeat their model!

Would you like a cup of tea? You appear to be becoming hysterical again.

Europe as a collection of individual nations cannot compete with Russia, America or China. This is a fact, Germany on its own cannot compete with any of them, it does not have the industrial, economic or military power, not now, not even if it began a crash course of re-industrialisation. European nations have not recovered from the Second World War in terms of industry, admittedly this is not helped in Germany by the fact that it spent the best part of fifty years split in two.
This is a fact, look at the figures and look at history. Russia is not the Soviet Union nor is it Tsarist Russia, America is not the Wild West any more and China is not a peasant land of serfs (well...not entirely). They have all moved on and grown stronger, they are all bigger than we are in all ways. They have bigger armies than individual European nations, they have bigger economies and they have bigger industries.

Now, the scenario put forward by Neal invisions that America leaves Europe to its own devices, as has been dreamed about by many anti-Americans in Europe for decades. The EU has supposedly been propped up by America so it's also imagine that that collapses and everyone goes back to how things were pre-EEC and NATO falls apart. Everyone has their own economy, army and industry and co-operation is between individual states rather than as an entity.
Now what? How does Germany plan to remain relevant in a market where it is outperformed by everyone? How would defence work? If Russia did decide to rearrange Eastern Europe by force, who would defend them? Is appeasement the answer?
Lots of supposition, and as you have already pointed out, the likelihood of America going isolationist is very slim and a very bad idea, but surely you must understand that by facts and figures alone, the only way that Europe can remain a global power is through a unified entity such as the EU?
I'm not denying that the EU needs reform, however as a group of individual nations, Europe cannot compete with any of the major powers of the world. This is a fact.

[Betonov]

It will go down as it has always been in European history.

If a major outside threat emerges we will stop killing each other, kill the enemy and then start killing each other again.


But then again. You think it would be easy to get the population fired up for a war against another european country. With all the young people mingling and travelling with other nationalities ??? Most of us have more friends abroad than at home.
You give a mortar and tell me to shell England and I'll hit you with it. You tell me to shell the neighboring village and I'll pay for the ammo myself.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

It will go down as it has always been in European history.

If a major outside threat emerges we will stop killing each other, kill the enemy and then start killing each other again.


But then again. You think it would be easy to get the population fired up for a war against another european country. With all the young people mingling and travelling with other nationalities ??? Most of us have more friends abroad than at home.
You give a mortar and tell me to shell England and I'll hit you with it. You tell me to shell the neighboring village and I'll pay for the ammo myself.

You have a valid point, it's just the rise of parties like UKIP, and Frances Front Nationale that have me concerned, a wave of xenophobia across Europe is not something that is needed, in my opinion anyway. Obviously certain elements will disagree with this.

[ikalugin]

Russia at moment (sadly) lacks power to rearrange the Eastern Europe by force, at least provided that we do it have Far East completely covered. What we need is another industrialisation, which may happen due to the western trade restrictions.

As to the xenophobia and nationalism - they appear to be a natural dialectic response to the EU issues of cultural creep (remove kebab) and postmodernistic revolution (ban gay people).

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Russia at moment (sadly) lacks power to rearrange the Eastern Europe by force, at least provided that we do it have Far East completely covered. What we need is another industrialisation, which may happen due to the western trade restrictions.

That's actually very good, for Russia, for Europe, and for the US. Do Russians actually fear invasion from Germany or France any more?

I feel the same way about the US, why do we keep hearing "the rise of China" as any kind of threat? I don't know, but that's the way the media and politicians paint the picture.

isolationism as a whole generally doesn't work out in the long term, something somewhere along the line will slip under the radar and catch you out.

What does that mean?

I understood all you followed with. Don't necessarily agree, as far as internationalizing of the oil industry. But anyway, all it will take is a new Reagan with vision, who knows how to frame the objective: pull the military out of foreign entanglements, mothball 3/4 of the military andcut the defense budget by 90%, secure the borders, evict all illegal aliens, revamp the welfare state around jobs this will open up, and move to nuclear power plants to free up oil production for autos.

Anyway, why Scotland? Other than the gorgeous women and manly men, that is.

[Oberon]

Well, things like Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, of course it depends on what you term as isolationism and how far you want to take it.

Oh, and Scotland because it's nearer to me than Denmark, although Denmark is a pretty nice place...and redheads, of course.

[ikalugin]

It appears that majority of our population do view NATO as a military threat to Russia, if this is what you are asking.

[Dread Knot]

I think the term isolationism always presents a false dichotomy. That either the US dominates the world, or it pulls up the oceanic drawbridge and withdraws from it completely. The US is part of an international community either way. We have to learn to live in that ambiguous region in-between.

Yeah, I know, ambiguity is scary.

[Onkel Neal]

Hmm... they don't realize that NATO exists because of the USSR's takeover of Eastern Europe after WWII?

Oh, well, I can understand that. When I was in Moscow in 1995, I visited the freshly built Great Patriotic War Museum. There was nothing in it about the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, the Soviet invasion of Poland and Finland... so I guess, yeah, the average Russian probably thinks the US and NATO are bent on militarily attacking Russia. I hope we win, so we get your rockets. We don't have any way to get our astronauts into space any more.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Russia at moment (sadly) lacks power to rearrange the Eastern Europe by force

orly?
where would you stop? in Paris? or New York?
what would you do with the people? 50% to Siberia, 50% a bullet in the head?

Originally Posted by ikalugin

cultural creep

speaking of which...what is this creep still doing here? I've already sent two reports (severe trolling etc etc) and the guy feels as free as a bird with his BS.
People got brigged for lesser trolling. Are mods sleeping? Don't you see hes playing with you? He keeps repeating over and over the same dumb phrases without referring relevant posts, account made August 2014 (really?) and you let this game going on? I bet if I made my own '9/11 was a big lie' thread, I would leave the brig until Christmas or Easter.
Wake the .... up.

[ikalugin]

This is about the post Soviet history.

Ie NATO is viewed as a threat because it is a military alliance that we are not part of, that only has to confront us in it's area of responsibility (as everyone else is either in it, on the way to joining it, or is friendly/neutral to it, with exception of Belorussia ofc), that was expanding towards us with a clear intent of enroaching on all our western frontiers and members of which were conducting numerous wars for dubious reasons.

I mean what not to feel threatened about, especially after the losses of the GPW (and general Russian historical paranoia of being invaded by -nationstatename-) ?

We've been down this road before, over many many many conversations and the gaping flaws of your theories and the likelihood of this micronation experiment folding back into a larger state has been put forward.
Tell me, when and where in history has such a place existed? And how long did it exist for?

You know the answer to that Oberon.
Take all of his previous historical examples which he uses to support his utopian ideal and measure their time line to becoming either a failed corrupt mini state or a failed corrupt mega state.
The outcome is always the same, bureaucracy, corruption, nepotism, despotism, tyranny.

Show me a system in history where it has not been this way? From Monarchy, to Democracy, to Fascism and Communism, the elite have always prayed upon the poor in every. single. political. system.

See above, all his examples of the "cure" to the problem end up with the same sickness they claim to get rid of.

[MH]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Russia at least has a historic tradition of being a sovereign country and was (and still is) suppressing nationalists via various means. Some of the other ex Soviet members had to start from the scratch, for example the Ukraine and Belorussia.

Belorussia just tried to maintain the Soviet tradition of centralised economy and did pretty well actually, especially in the agricultural and industrial sectors. In fact they have better GDP per capita than a far more fortunate (resources, land and Soviet heritage wise) Ukraine.

Ukraine (and other countries such as Kazahstan) on the other hand tried to create an essentially new nation-state, abusing the rights if the minorities, feeding the local nationalists (for example promoting the NAZI helper organisations, who actively participated in Holocaust and other such NAZI crimes), abusing the rights of local minorities, attempting to create a historical myth of the independence, an independent culture basis.

This process of Soviet dissolution and subsequent state building lead to a number of frozen conflicts, some of which went through their hot phase in the 90s and 00s. Now we see yet another fault line opening and going through the hot phase.

Lets be fair...Russia itself is dancing with nationalism and fascism regarding freedom of speech and manipulating the people using the good old days rhetoric.
Regarding Ukraine I would be glad to see it independent.
Seems it is the will of the people there. I don't care weather the Ukrainian identity is a myth created by stupid starved to death victimized peasants or Kiev's deported intelligencia.

[Alex]

And pretty much at the same time, people living in Europe - who can't stand any more to live in that lobbies&banking dictatorship the European Union is - massively voted against the European Union, and for a return to sovereign nations, contradicting one more time the media - disinformation - as a whole, ridiculing that ultra-european stage work the Maidan was...

Return of the real ?

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by MH

Lets be fair...Russia itself is dancing with nationalism and fascism regarding freedom of speech and manipulating the people using the good old days rhetoric.
Regarding Ukraine I would be glad to see it independent.
Seems it is the will of the people there. I don't care weather the Ukrainian identity is a myth created by stupid starved to death victimized peasants or Kiev's deported intelligencia.

How is the policy towards freedom of speech is related to nationalism? Also, there is freedom of speech in Russia, unless Echo of Moscow and RBK were closed while I was looking the other way.

As to the nationalism/fascism - it's radical forms are prosecuted (people get real prison terms), it's (nationalism) moderate forms (which are accepted as permisive by global comunity) are ridiculed (there is no decent right wing party in Russia, LDPR is regarded as a joke by the majority).

Contrary to that sensible policy Ukraine (and certain EU members) support NAZI organisations (including those responsible for participating in Holocaust), their veterans and so on. The historic myth I was talking about in relation to Ukraine is that Ukranian people are a superior, older and more respectable slavic nation, in comparison to evil asian-mongolic Russian horde.