Ankara rediscovers NATO

Catfish · 02-29-20, 01:52 PM

or not..

Google translate from Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung:

https://translate.google.com/transla...-16655544.html

" ....what does Putin want with his cynical behavior? He has already tied Syria so closely to himself that it is not viable without the help of the Kremlin. He has also achieved that the United States no longer wants to be an actor in Syria. This leaves two goals: destabilizing Europe and making Turkey compliant - also demonstrating to them who is in charge of the process. Putin holds an effective lever in Syria and especially in Idlib. Because if the ruler in the Kremlin only wants it, he can confront Turkey and Europe with millions of refugees . ..."

Skybird · 02-29-20, 04:57 PM

Why does Erdoghan play his cyncial game? Why doe she support and cooperate with radicla Islamist militias, like he did support and suppolied and provideds safe harbours for IS fighters years ago? Why does he blackmail Europe, why did he embark on his little adventure in assaulting Syria in a misled bed that his war of aggression must be supported by NATO?

Why did Merkel throw Europe before the Turkish predator as prey, maximised the Turk's options to blackmail Europe, maximised Europe's vulnerabilities, prevents the strengthneing of Germany's military defence, refuses to prpotect its borders, reject5s to follow her constitutional duties and instead deconstructs law and order?

Don't accuse Putin of what is the fault of the Europeans, and what is the nature of Erdoghan I. Russia wants syria as a platform in its geostratgewical gameplay. It cooly calculates how to get the maximum effect with the minimum of investment and risk. While the Turkish military both in numbers and technology is superior to the Syrian forces, risking to collide with the Russians would be foolish. But the heavier Erdoghan strikes against Assad's troops, the greater the risk that he will strike Russians as well. And so far the Turks have ran only into Syrian forces - not in to Russian forces, whcih are a completely different callibre. I recommend to compare the number of rocket and shell artillery on Turkish and Russian sides. The Russians love artillery. History teaches them to love it. And maybe nobody is as good with it, as the Russians. And nobody is as heavy with it as the Russians. Especially rocket artillery.

Right now Russia can increase its influence in Syria by having Turks and Syians at each other's throats - with no significant Russian losses so far. Maximum gain. Minimum investment. Thats answers your initial question on why Putin does what he does. Assad reigns only because Moscow wants it. Without Ruissian intervention years ago, he would be history now.

The only other question is why Europe is so desperately determined to stay weak, impotent and self-paralysed. The borders on land and sea can be closed, and they can be guarded. Of course they can, if the will is there. To say different is like saiyng that you cannot close the door of your house and keep the lock in place. You send the ships and planes and patrols and troops, and the border is closed, period. But the will is not there. And you should ask why it is not there - and how corrosive to Europe's own interests it is that this will is not there. You see what is happenign in the sociological and political landscape of Europe. Economy is falling into a contiental recession, with corona having its impacts on the Euro crisdis as well. The further weakening of the European patient will bring out and deepn the conflicts in the EU that always have been there, that never had gone. This is the fruit of this plciy of wanting to be weka anbd indifferent and a military dwarf and a safe haven for all the sufferings and pains of thre world, all the dozenbs and hundreds of millions of them.

And I do not even mention China'S aggressive economic moves in Europe, Africa and the ME here.

You want to stop Assad and Putin? Grow the strength to stop them first. Else fold your cards, you will lose anyway. Dont throw your money into a lost bluff.

The more inviting you behave to migrants, the more will come. The more inviting to migrants you behave, the less reason they have not wanting to come. The more you adapt to them, the less reason they have to adapt to you. The more you alter your known value system to respect theirs, the less they will alter their value system, to respect yours.

Putin just cooly calculates on the groudns of your/our behvaiour. His goal are Russian, not European intersts. He sees us making plenty of strategic mistakes and he follows Patton's advise not to interrupt us. And a weak Europe (and a distracted America) is bad for Europe and bad for America - but is good for Russia. That simple it is.

Catfish · 02-29-20, 05:48 PM

And what does your drivel and hate have to do with the above article?

So you like to insult and denigrate Europe for its idea to become a better and more humane society with shared values, ok your opinion.
I would not take one weakness of one side to excuse brazenness and power-obsessed nationalism and dictatorship on the other.

If the EU is such a slave-owner and dictatorship as you or Ann Widdecombe likes to describe it, i'd propose to move eastward and live out your hate.

Skybird · 02-29-20, 08:06 PM

You certainly will feel thankful that I do not mind to bother you with more of just "my drivel and hate".

Catfish · 03-01-20, 04:34 AM

It seems it was more my drivel and hate than yours, yesterday. I am sorry. I just heard one more speech by Widdecombe, i am fed up with this f'n brexit show and i have to say i would have thrown something at here, would i have been in the vicinity.
Will not delete my post though since the rest does not make sense then.

It is not the right thing to close one's eyes and dream of unicorns just because realities do not fit one's opinions or expectations, true.
Unfortunately I see it like in the article and you, but the difference is i will not excuse Putin's cynical and disgusting behaviour, and bad-mouth Europe just because it does not play the same game. This "weakness" is the main thing that distinguishes Europe, not only from Russia, or so i thought.

Maybe it is time to change. But if we want to have influence is that necessarily to be on the military side?
Maybe yes. Maybe a build-up of arms again, maybe each single european state bolsters its military forces, or maybe a pan-european army. The latter makes much more sense because of a central command structure and speed of reacting.
I wonder whether this can be Putin's intention, but maybe not all of his plans prosper.

Putin gives Erdoghan a runaround, the latter is cynical but also dumb. Putin is aggravating the situation with his "politics" which are more like a cold war, but a war it is now.

ikalugin · 03-01-20, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

" ....what does Putin want with his cynical behavior? He has already tied Syria so closely to himself that it is not viable without the help of the Kremlin. He has also achieved that the United States no longer wants to be an actor in Syria. This leaves two goals: destabilizing Europe and making Turkey compliant - also demonstrating to them who is in charge of the process. Putin holds an effective lever in Syria and especially in Idlib. Because if the ruler in the Kremlin only wants it, he can confront Turkey and Europe with millions of refugees . ..."

What we are doing is working with separate actors (both Russian and otherwise) and then we reinforce sucssess. As such apart from the core objectives (fighting ISIS and other similar organisations, maintaing foothold in Latakia which btw does not require a viable Syria) we don't really have any specific end configuration or strategy in mind.

This is what makes us hard to predict - actors rise and fall on their sucsess or failure and so do policies and strategies that they support.

ikalugin · 03-01-20, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

.
It is not the right thing to close one's eyes and dream of unicorns just because realities do not fit one's opinions or expectations, true.
Unfortunately I see it like in the article and you, but the difference is i will not excuse Putin's cynical and disgusting behaviour, and bad-mouth Europe just because it does not play the same game. This "weakness" is the main thing that distinguishes Europe, not only from Russia, or so i thought.

Maybe it is time to change. But if we want to have influence is that necessarily to be on the military side?
Maybe yes. Maybe a build-up of arms again, maybe each single european state bolsters its military forces, or maybe a pan-european army. The latter makes much more sense because of a central command structure and speed of reacting.
I wonder whether this can be Putin's intention, but maybe not all of his plans prosper.

Putin gives Erdoghan a runaround, the latter is cynical but also dumb. Putin is aggravating the situation with his "politics" which are more like a cold war, but a war it is now.

World is a harsh place and hard power is the foundation of power.

During cold war there were several proxy wars (ie Vietnam) between super powers.

As to the EU build up - independent (from US) EU would support Russian multipolar worldview. The issue EU has is that it is going to be the AHE of 21st century.

Skybird · 03-01-20, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

It seems it was more my drivel and hate than yours, yesterday. I am sorry. I just heard one more speech by Widdecombe, i am fed up with this f'n brexit show and i have to say i would have thrown something at here, would i have been in the vicinity.
Will not delete my post though since the rest does not make sense then.

It is not the right thing to close one's eyes and dream of unicorns just because realities do not fit one's opinions or expectations, true.
Unfortunately I see it like in the article and you, but the difference is i will not excuse Putin's cynical and disgusting behaviour, and bad-mouth Europe just because it does not play the same game. This "weakness" is the main thing that distinguishes Europe, not only from Russia, or so i thought.

Maybe it is time to change. But if we want to have influence is that necessarily to be on the military side?
Maybe yes. Maybe a build-up of arms again, maybe each single european state bolsters its military forces, or maybe a pan-european army. The latter makes much more sense because of a central command structure and speed of reacting.
I wonder whether this can be Putin's intention, but maybe not all of his plans prosper.

Putin gives Erdoghan a runaround, the latter is cynical but also dumb. Putin is aggravating the situation with his "politics" which are more like a cold war, but a war it is now.

Catfish, one thing you really need to keep on mind about me. I do not and do not intend to "excuse" Putin. Or anyone else for that matter. I just take things for what they are, and that includes Putin. I kind of "respect" him for the cool-minded soberness by which he realises what he wants to realise, that is lightyears away from Europe always wanting this or that, but then being impotent and indifferent to realise it - in this quality, may it work for the better or worse result in your eyes, Putin is leading Europe around by a ring in its nose. In these qulties Putin is alwys better prepared and is more professional and potent than pracically all first-line polticians in European states. He knows how to play the big game better than anyone else in Europe, that simple. Thats is to your disadvanatge, but I do not conclude fromt hat that we should demand him to play weaker and inettionally to Russia'S disadvantage, but I conclude that Wetserners need to get smarter regarding their choises of what social-cultural icons they follow (Thunberg) and what potlicans they legitimise to make decisons for them. The past couple fo years have brought European decisions in these regards and flushed names to office seats and posts, that bring tears of laughter to my eyes. States have interests. Russia has interests. Europeans states have interests, and these European interests are anything but coherent and united, many states simply abuse the talking of a unbited Europe to put their own interests before that of all others.

What ignites you often about me is that you do not realise that i simply strictly differ between the world as it is and the world as I would prefer it to be. The world I would like to see is the island of Pala Huyley describes in Island: buddhist-founded, peaceful, tolerant, and very, very reaosnable and reason.guided. But i know that man is not like this. It is an illusion, a puff of sweet smoke. The world we have to deal with is the world of the Putins and Leyens, Thunbergy and Trumps, Merkels and Macrons. And we made it this world. Both worlds, the one that is and the one that one would wish for, are not the same, but I and everybody else have just the first one to deal with. To tailor policies according to an illusory world that is not real, leads nowhere, and with visions I have nothign to do, as Schmidt said: people who have visions should see a psychiatrist. . This includes necessarily to get one's mind settled with the idea that we cannot save all and everybody and that we cannot influnce the world everywhere and everytime according to how we think it should be. that simply is beyond our reach, Europe is not a rising power, but a fallign power, we simply fall more and more into irrelevance, we have had our big times in history, and they are as dead as the british empire that you mock the Brexiteers with.

I do not join the chorus of mice that try to roar like tigers, you see.

On the Brits and Brexit, it can be explained - beyond the lies of Brexiteers - why Brexit happened, and the brits have every natural right one could imagine to say No to the continent, it is their birth right and we have no claim for them, and it is them who must face the consequences, whether they may be good or bad. It must not be our our my or your job to notoriously lecture them on how stupid they behave - in your view. Our only task is to accept their decision and to see how we come to terms without them. How they get along with their government - is their thing, not ours.

02-29-20, 01:52 PM	#1
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Ankara rediscovers NATO or not.. Google translate from Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung: https://translate.google.com/transla...-16655544.html " ....what does Putin want with his cynical behavior? He has already tied Syria so closely to himself that it is not viable without the help of the Kremlin. He has also achieved that the United States no longer wants to be an actor in Syria. This leaves two goals: destabilizing Europe and making Turkey compliant - also demonstrating to them who is in charge of the process. Putin holds an effective lever in Syria and especially in Idlib. Because if the ruler in the Kremlin only wants it, he can confront Turkey and Europe with millions of refugees . ..." __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

02-29-20, 04:57 PM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,510 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Why does Erdoghan play his cyncial game? Why doe she support and cooperate with radicla Islamist militias, like he did support and suppolied and provideds safe harbours for IS fighters years ago? Why does he blackmail Europe, why did he embark on his little adventure in assaulting Syria in a misled bed that his war of aggression must be supported by NATO? Why did Merkel throw Europe before the Turkish predator as prey, maximised the Turk's options to blackmail Europe, maximised Europe's vulnerabilities, prevents the strengthneing of Germany's military defence, refuses to prpotect its borders, reject5s to follow her constitutional duties and instead deconstructs law and order? Don't accuse Putin of what is the fault of the Europeans, and what is the nature of Erdoghan I. Russia wants syria as a platform in its geostratgewical gameplay. It cooly calculates how to get the maximum effect with the minimum of investment and risk. While the Turkish military both in numbers and technology is superior to the Syrian forces, risking to collide with the Russians would be foolish. But the heavier Erdoghan strikes against Assad's troops, the greater the risk that he will strike Russians as well. And so far the Turks have ran only into Syrian forces - not in to Russian forces, whcih are a completely different callibre. I recommend to compare the number of rocket and shell artillery on Turkish and Russian sides. The Russians love artillery. History teaches them to love it. And maybe nobody is as good with it, as the Russians. And nobody is as heavy with it as the Russians. Especially rocket artillery. Right now Russia can increase its influence in Syria by having Turks and Syians at each other's throats - with no significant Russian losses so far. Maximum gain. Minimum investment. Thats answers your initial question on why Putin does what he does. Assad reigns only because Moscow wants it. Without Ruissian intervention years ago, he would be history now. The only other question is why Europe is so desperately determined to stay weak, impotent and self-paralysed. The borders on land and sea can be closed, and they can be guarded. Of course they can, if the will is there. To say different is like saiyng that you cannot close the door of your house and keep the lock in place. You send the ships and planes and patrols and troops, and the border is closed, period. But the will is not there. And you should ask why it is not there - and how corrosive to Europe's own interests it is that this will is not there. You see what is happenign in the sociological and political landscape of Europe. Economy is falling into a contiental recession, with corona having its impacts on the Euro crisdis as well. The further weakening of the European patient will bring out and deepn the conflicts in the EU that always have been there, that never had gone. This is the fruit of this plciy of wanting to be weka anbd indifferent and a military dwarf and a safe haven for all the sufferings and pains of thre world, all the dozenbs and hundreds of millions of them. And I do not even mention China'S aggressive economic moves in Europe, Africa and the ME here. You want to stop Assad and Putin? Grow the strength to stop them first. Else fold your cards, you will lose anyway. Dont throw your money into a lost bluff. The more inviting you behave to migrants, the more will come. The more inviting to migrants you behave, the less reason they have not wanting to come. The more you adapt to them, the less reason they have to adapt to you. The more you alter your known value system to respect theirs, the less they will alter their value system, to respect yours. Putin just cooly calculates on the groudns of your/our behvaiour. His goal are Russian, not European intersts. He sees us making plenty of strategic mistakes and he follows Patton's advise not to interrupt us. And a weak Europe (and a distracted America) is bad for Europe and bad for America - but is good for Russia. That simple it is. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-29-20, 05:48 PM	#3
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	And what does your drivel and hate have to do with the above article? So you like to insult and denigrate Europe for its idea to become a better and more humane society with shared values, ok your opinion. I would not take one weakness of one side to excuse brazenness and power-obsessed nationalism and dictatorship on the other. If the EU is such a slave-owner and dictatorship as you or Ann Widdecombe likes to describe it, i'd propose to move eastward and live out your hate. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

02-29-20, 08:06 PM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,510 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	You certainly will feel thankful that I do not mind to bother you with more of just "my drivel and hate". __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-01-20, 04:34 AM	#5
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	It seems it was more my drivel and hate than yours, yesterday. I am sorry. I just heard one more speech by Widdecombe, i am fed up with this f'n brexit show and i have to say i would have thrown something at here, would i have been in the vicinity. Will not delete my post though since the rest does not make sense then. It is not the right thing to close one's eyes and dream of unicorns just because realities do not fit one's opinions or expectations, true. Unfortunately I see it like in the article and you, but the difference is i will not excuse Putin's cynical and disgusting behaviour, and bad-mouth Europe just because it does not play the same game. This "weakness" is the main thing that distinguishes Europe, not only from Russia, or so i thought. Maybe it is time to change. But if we want to have influence is that necessarily to be on the military side? Maybe yes. Maybe a build-up of arms again, maybe each single european state bolsters its military forces, or maybe a pan-european army. The latter makes much more sense because of a central command structure and speed of reacting. I wonder whether this can be Putin's intention, but maybe not all of his plans prosper. Putin gives Erdoghan a runaround, the latter is cynical but also dumb. Putin is aggravating the situation with his "politics" which are more like a cold war, but a war it is now. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.