US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Catfish]

Of course Trump was there, he just did not visit the US cemetery.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...tice-day-video

Thumbs up from Putin lol
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...mistice-parade

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Catfish

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...tice-day-video

Macron the idiot who says nationalism is the exact opposite of patriotism. What a moron.

[Schroeder]

Patriotism = You love your country.
Nationalism = You hate all other countries.


Nationalism is what brought us two world wars and countless smaller ones before so Macron is spot on.

[em2nought]

and speaking of grave visitations Schroeder has Merkel visited my Great grandfathers war grave in Belgium or any other German WW1 cemetery this armistice day? I'm betting not.[/QUOTE]


Maybe she's in Gallipoli placing a wreath on one of Johnny Turk's graves.

[Catfish]

Trump can do what he wants, his echoers will always applaud.
Thumbs up from Putin for Trumps efforts to destroy the western alliance.

I would like to tell some of those US nationalists to go to hell. But they are already there.

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Patriotism = You love your country.
Nationalism = You hate all other countries.

Nationalism is what brought us two world wars and countless smaller ones before so Macron is spot on.

Maybe that is your definition of the term but I don't think it is Trumps.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by August

Maybe that is your definition of the term but I don't think it is Trumps.

I wasn't talking about Trump....

[August]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I wasn't talking about Trump....

Does that matter?

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Patriotism = You love your country.
Nationalism = You hate all other countries.


Nationalism is what brought us two world wars and countless smaller ones before so Macron is spot on.

Patriotism and nationalism are whats called a synonym. They are words that mean exactly or nearly the same as another lexeme (word or phrase) in the same language. Words that are synonyms are said to be synonymous, and the state of being a synonym is called synonymy.

So I stand by my words that if Macron thinks patriotism is an antonym of nationalism, Macron is an idiot.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Oh brother you need to stop drinking the koolaid man. Patriotism and nationalism are whats called a synonym.
They are in my dictionary words that mean exactly or nearly the same as another lexeme (word or phrase) in the same language.

Almost but not exactly. Let's have a look:


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

Definition of nationalism

1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

//Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.


2 : a nationalist movement or government opposing nationalisms


The Difference Between Nationalism, Patriotism, Sectionalism, and Jingoism

Nationalism has a number of near-synonyms, each of which carries its own distinct meaning. Patriotism is similar insofar as it emphasizes strong feelings for one’s country, but it does not necessarily imply an attitude of superiority...

That difference is very important. One loves his country, the other loves his too but also feels his country is superior over others.
It was the feeling of superiority that let the European nations so willingly into WWI (and so many smaller ones before) which then turned into that huge catastrophe for everyone involved. Would somebody who loves his country want to bring death and destruction to it? Most likely not but it happened more than once. The Nazis were nationalistic...didn't turn out so well for anybody either. The feeling of national superiority has often damaged the nations that were blinded by it. Is it patriotic to have your population suffer in a pointless war that was sparked through the feeling of superiority and disdain for your neighbors? No. But it's nationalistic. That's why Macron IMO rightfully claims that nationalism is the enemy of patriotism as it divides nations and makes them susceptible to hate others which often led to war which then led to death and destruction.

[Rockstar]

Just answer the question. Are nationalism and patriotism

1. Synonyms i.e. similar

or

2. Antonyms or as President Morcron says exact opposites.

Keep in mind president moron didnt state the degree to which either can used he said they are antonyms. Which is utter political nonsense.

As far your thought that nationalism is something bad because it brought this world into two wars. It also put a stop to them. Every soldier over there died wearing the uniform of his or her country not of some global patriotic socialist union motherland. They were patriots who knew and felt quite strongly they and the country they represented were better than the bad guys country.

[Skybird]

Best put it was by some Frenchman whose name I always forget, he sdaid somethign like this: Patriotism is love for your people, nationalism is hate against other people.

Specifying it further, the first focusses on the loyalty to your own kin, people, tribe, I would even go as far as saying: culture. The latter focusses on the rejeciton of other people, cultures, based often on a sense of oneself being superior, the other being demonized without causal cause in the wake of this self-understanding.

One can have a sense of historically grown own cultural identity which can be additional to a strong feeling of patriotism. A man can be grown up in a Bavarian village, which makes him Bavarian and loving his home town, and he also is German and is aware of the rich cultural heritage of German history and arts and culture, which may make him a German patriot, and still he also sees himself as a Westerner/European who bases his way of living, thinking and values on the tradition of the Jerwish-Christian value order, the tradition of European humanism, the ancient Greek philosophical foundation of Europe'S culture, and so forth, which makes him an "Abendländer".

Identity necessarily means to separate between "us" and "them". This is true on the level of the human psychology, and is true on the level of societies, cultural spheres as well. A Spaniard, a british, a German and a Fin may be different in general mantlaity, they may have different preferences, different ways to look at life and what is important to them - but all these differences vanish if these four men would travel together to lets say india or China - suddenly they realise they have more in common than what separates them, becasue the contrast to the surrounding culture of India or China is so immense that it commands the realise that "we are Westerners".

In psychology, ther lack of borders between "me" and "you/them" means psychopathologic propblems and according symptooms, syndroms, and in egneral: suffering. Its not different if nations or cultures refuse to separate between "usa" and "them". Realising and accepting differences - the original meaning of the word 'discrimination' - is precondition for peaceful and tolerant coexstince of people. I can tolerate the other only by knowing where I set the limits of tolerance, I must be aware of what and who I am and what and whom I do not want to be or become, in order to define these limits of tolerance. Where I am endlessly tolerant, I and my society doing the same suffer from cultural borderline syndrome. To live together with somebody I must be somebody myself, in personality and culture. This is neither already nationalism nor supremacism. Its simply is vital psychohygienics.

Thats why I am absolutely rejecting ideas of denying cultural and natioanl differences between people, religious and cultural differences between people, and social melting experiments between cultures that are of lets say mutually exlcuding value priorities and self-understandings. I indeed think that often peace is better served by not forcing together what does not belong together, but to keep it apart, and if needed even separating it by walls and fences. Things may change in these regards from one generaiton to the next, but the change may be for the better - or for the worst. That things change for the worst is possible.

The EU wants to defeat all this realising of differences and also accountabiilties, it wants to run a social planning and engineering experiment which is the biggest of its kind in history. And for this I dispise and even hate it so unreservedly. I see the hybris in this and I predict that right this megalomaniac folly of believing that man can plan and manage just anything, that this attitude of just can-do-anything without paying attention to limits and differences and thinking one can ignore them all without punishment, will spell the self-destruction not only of the EU, but of Europe itself. The EU is not "Europe".

Who wants to be a truem European, must be antio natiuonalist, but can very well be a patriot - and for this reason must be necessarily against the EU as well. You can not be loyal to the idea of identity and the ideas that deny and destroy identity at the same time. And the artificial, uniform surrogate identity from the ideological polit-laboratory that the Eu wants to prescribe for everybody in Europe, is only a pitiful wannabe-replacement for the rich and diverse heritage of European cultures and identities - there is it again, the plural.

What we must learn again, however, is the self-responsibility and accountability of nations and people. Patriotism that allows getting paidf for by the others, all too easdily can tgurn into nationalism. You base more and more on the other paying your bills, and for this you even start to hate the other, because he obviously can afford it to pay your bills, else he would not do it (if he is of a sane mind), this must lead to hostility, due to cognitive dissonance that makes you to argue that it is not your fault, but that the other is malicious against you, et voila: nationalistic hate is born.

Coexistence is only possible between self-relying, self-aware actors who are strong enough to carry their own load. Reciprocity is vital. They should not demand that others have to live for their egoist sake. Where such demands are raised, the side facing these demands hopefully is strong enough to reject these, and is hopefully strong enough to even support this rejection with force, if being challenged by deed or conflict.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Just answer the question. Are nationalism and patriotism

1. Synonyms i.e. similar

or

2. Antonyms or as President Morcron says exact opposites.

Technically speaking neither nor. But the consequences were often times the exact opposite. Nationalism is aggressive as it includes disdain for others and therefore often brought war and destruction to one owns country while patriotism doesn't. That's why Macron said it that way. Nationalism often did damage to one own's country.

Keep in mind president moron didnt state the degree to which either can used he said they are antonyms. Which is utter political nonsense.

See above.

As far your thought that nationalism is something bad because it brought this world into two wars.

Two? Which war in Europe wasn't started by nationalism? Well, those started by religion but that's the same mechanic (our side is better than yours so we'll teach you a lesson).

It also put a stop to them.

Not at all, see below.

They were patriots who knew and felt quite strongly they and the country they represented were better than the bad guys country.

And so felt our soldiers. They were better than those other "bastards"....now how did that put an end to wars? Oh right, it didn't as we've already had that time and again in the past. One side gets defeated, swears revenge (no way those inferior bastards defeated us!!!! <Insert chanting of respective country's name here> ) and once it's strong enough the cycle starts anew as nationalism keeps the hate for others going.
Western Europe has the longest period of peace since human history because we've stopped hating one another. If we had still our WWI mentality we would have been at each other's throat again for sure.
That doesn't mean we can't be patriotic. You can love your own country and be willing to defend it without hating all others.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Best put it was by some Frenchman whose name I always forget, he sdaid somethign like this: Patriotism is love for your people, nationalism is hate against other people.

Charles de Gaulle -

''Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.''

[Rockstar]

So we have yet again another politician redefining a word.


Not one dictionary I've read says anything about nationalism being something hateful. A sense superiority yes, but hate is not in the definition. Where in the two definitions below do you see the word hate?

Nationalism meaning:

loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness on of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational group.

Patriotism meaning:
love for or devotion to one's country.

They are synonymous they are alike in meaning or significance having the same connotations, immplications, or reference. They are NOT antonyms which is a word of opposite meaning. The usual antonym of good is bad or Macron is intelligent

Put away your political advocacy handbooks guys. Its OK to be German, have a desire to maintain a culture and to put your interests above someone else, just dont get too cocky again.

And I still think President Moron is an idiot for thinking patriotism and nationalism are exact opposites. However I have no doubts they can both be used in their extreme forms to generate a war or stop one. They can also be used to generate some pretty damn good things too. Let see there is U.S. nationalism wanting to put its interest over that of yours by expecting you to pay your fair share in NATO. Then there's British nationalism in the form of BREXIT wanting to put its national interests over the loony bin the rest of Europe has become.

And of course what do we hear from the looney bin? Nationalism is hate. I dont hate you man just do your job, pay up and quit crying about it.