The Firearm thread: Engineering artistry of wood, polymer and steel.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

Actually, given the probable range of any self-defense scenario, just about any cartridge will do if one keeps one's cool and shoots straight.

True dat, all ballistic advantages are thrown right out the window if your bullet doesn’t connect. Five .22 LRs in the bullseye beat one .44 Mag. that missed completely. To paraphrase famed lawman Bill Jordan, ballistics are fine, but accuracy is final.

Most large caliber fire arms back in the day like my beloved .45 colt were also meant to shoot a horse out from under its rider. I carry it when I go into the wild. But for everyday carry and personal defense at 12 feet? No way! The .22lr has a long history of being used by spooks, military pilots and gamblers as a personal defence round since the mid 1800’s. Below is a bullet required by the FBI to penetrate 12 inches of ballistic gel. The .22 ‘Punch’




Though I think my little snubby .38 will do the job too.

[Rockstar]

Might go find me a Sig 322C-BAS tomorrow

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

True dat, all ballistic advantages are thrown right out the window if your bullet doesn’t connect. Five .22 LRs in the bullseye beat one .44 Mag. that missed completely. To paraphrase famed lawman Bill Jordan, ballistics are fine, but accuracy is final.

Most large caliber fire arms back in the day like my beloved .45 colt were also meant to shoot a horse out from under its rider. I carry it when I go into the wild. But for everyday carry and personal defense at 12 feet? No way! The .22lr has a long history of being used by spooks, military pilots and gamblers as a personal defence round since the mid 1800’s. Below is a bullet required by the FBI to penetrate 12 inches of ballistic gel. The .22 ‘Punch’




Though I think my little snubby .38 will do the job too.

Currently the 22 LR ammo that strikes the best balance of bullet weight and muzzle velocity to achieve the greatest power is CCI's Stinger 22 LR Ammo. This round has a 32 grain CPHP bullet loaded to a muzzle velocity of 1,640 fps. The hyper-velocity Stinger cartridge has 191 ft lbs of muzzle energy. The highest muzzle velocity you can get from a 22 LR is 1,850 fps. This is CCI’s COPPER-22 round, but its bullet weighs only 21 grains – nearly half the average weight for its caliber. That lightning fast muzzle velocity only gives so light a bullet a muzzle energy of 160 ft lbs!

The Wmr has a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps. WMR's have a 45 bullet grain weight. In the video, with ballistic gel, the CCI ammo appears to penetrate 9 inches. The WMR penetrated better than 12 inches. Most human being are about 12 inches, front to back. CCI may be the better choice if over penetration is a concern.

Both ammunition can turn a rather anemic round into a formidable self defense choice. I know it wouldn't be mine. CCI’s Velocitor cartridge serves better against human-sized threats. Its 40 grain CPHP bullet is loaded to a muzzle velocity of 1,435 fps for a muzzle energy of 183 fps. Not quite the Stinger’s power level, but the Velocitor heavier expanding bullet has a greater chance of penetrating to a depth where it can find a vital organ. The truth is an intruder wouldn't be happy to see any of the weapons mentioned, including the .22 used against them. This is just another video in addition to yours, Rockstar.

https://www.rugerpistolforums.com/th...nt-ammo.40227/

[MaDef]

While .22's can be used defensively, all things considered it is way down on the list of effective & Reliable calibers for stopping threats.

[Rockstar]

Stopping power is a myth. The .22 LR has killed more people than any other caliber in the U.S.

Btw,

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida is set to become the 26th state to allow citizens to carry firearms without a permit under legislation outlined Monday by Republican House Speaker Paul Renner.

Stopping Power: Myths, Legends, and Realities
January 16, 2013 • by Sydney Vail, MD

https://www.policemag.com/340890/sto...-and-realities

As a trauma surgeon and a tactical medical specialist, I am often asked by law enforcement officers what caliber and type of handgun ammunition offers the most stopping power. I can't answer that question. Let me explain why.

The ammunition most commonly carried by law enforcement officers is a hollow-point configuration or expanding full metal jacket bullet, typically in one of five calibers, including .38/.357, 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. Other calibers are used in some departments. But for the sake of this discussion, let's stick with the most common rounds. These handgun rounds perform very differently based on a number of key factors that I'd like to discuss.

At most agencies it is typical for either the rangemaster or lead firearms trainer to choose specific ammunition (caliber and/or bullet type) based on the results of ammunition being run through a series of ballistic tests, most commonly the FBI's ballistic laboratory testing. Marketing by ammunition companies also influences how agencies choose the specific ammunition for front line officers to carry.

Unfortunately, the information that agencies are using to choose the ammo for their officers is generally based on hype as well as the flawed standardized testing using ballistic gel and measurements of the depth of penetration into ballistic gel, degree of bullet expansion, and other factors. Usually, actual data on human body wound ballistics is not available to agencies when they are choosing ammo for their officers.

What is most unfortunate is that the testing of modern bullets does not give a complete picture of what a particular ammunition configuration will do in the human body to incapacitate it in a timely fashion, in other words, stopping power. The testing results "infer" or "simulate" what is believed to happen in the human body, but I can tell you that from my experience operating on gunshot patients that this just is not the case.

So back to the question at hand about determining stopping power. If you are expecting me to tell you which brand and which bullet caliber and type to use for the best or most reliable stopping power, you are going to be disappointed. But I will tell you about the factors that determine stopping power.

Kinetic Energy

Most officers think that a larger bullet and higher velocity equal more "kinetic" energy, yielding more stopping power than a smaller bullet with the same velocity. Here's the reality:

We know that the equation for kinetic energy is KE = ½mv2 (KE is kinetic energy, m is mass of object, and v2 is velocity squared). This equation tells us how much energy will be derived from a combination of bullet grain weight and muzzle velocity.

Now we need to go back a step and define stopping power. Is it the ability of a particular ammunition to:

Immediately incapacitate a threat?
Eventually incapacitate a threat?
Slow down a threat?
Render a person less able to remain a threat?
Knock the threat to the ground?
I believe the definition of stopping power should be a particular ammunition's effectiveness to render a person unable to offer resistance or remain a threat to the officer, an intended victim, or self.

So how does ammunition accomplish this? You have two options. You can use a really large round at very high velocity like the 30mm cannon rounds from an Apache helicopter's M230 Chain Gun, which produces substantial kinetic energy, or you can place your shot where it has the most effect. Obviously, shot placement is the only realistic option for a law enforcement officer.

A .40 caliber bullet shot into the shirtless torso of a person causes a degree of injury due to the body absorbing the bullet's energy and dispersing it in front of and around the path of the bullet. The projectile also tears through the tissue. This means that the kinetic energy of this typically low-velocity (less than 1,500 feet per second) bullet will create both a permanent cavity and to a much lesser extent a temporary cavity.

But does this ammunition have acceptable stopping power? Only if it hits a vital structure that would "stop" the target from continuing the fight.

The Target Variable

Consider that the same ammunition shot into the torso of an officer wearing a ballistic vest involves the same forces, but they are dispersed over a greater surface area in order to dissipate those forces, which, hopefully, prevents penetration of the body and allows the officer to continue in the fight.

So is the stopping power the same or different for these two scenarios? The kinetic energy is the same, the tissue injury is different.

Another way to look at this is to think about a bowling ball as a projectile and how it might perform in two different scenarios. If someone shoots it out of a cannon into a brick wall, the large mass and high velocity will likely result in a significant hole in that wall. But if the same bowling ball is shot out of a cannon into a strong net made of Kevlar, it will likely have all of its energy taken up by the net and not allow penetration. It has the same energy to lose in its intended target but different targets yield different results. A bowling ball fired from a cannon has high kinetic energy and excellent stopping power that far exceeds any ammo you could carry on duty, but the effect it has on the target is still determined by shot placement and the nature of the target.

Real Gunshot Wounds

The point here is that no single ammunition that is typically used by law enforcement officers today can reliably claim to have superior stopping power.

I have seen a .22 caliber bullet completely incapacitate someone and a .45 ACP fail to achieve that result. People and animals shot with 10mm rounds and .357 SIG rounds have continued to run from the police. I have been on scene as a tactical medical provider when a suicidal person shot himself in the head with a .45 Colt round resulting in instant death. And I have seen the same results in suicides that used smaller calibers, including .22, .25, and .32. I have also seen people hit with 9mm, .40, and .45 without so much as staggering or slowing their verbal or physical activities.

So we come back to the original question: Which ammunition has the best stopping power? I can't answer that question. What I can say is that you should look for ammunition that reliably lives up to its claims of penetration and expansion but don't believe that these two factors alone are related to stopping power.

The ultimate stopping power rests with your training with your weapon system. Accurate hits in any reasonable caliber will "stop" a person if that person has experienced enough brain or spinal cord damage to interrupt regular neurologic impulses from reaching vital areas of the body or the person has hemorrhaged enough blood to lower his or her blood pressure where the brain no longer is able to function well. You can also stop a person if a major bone shatters after a bullet injures it, but does that stop the fight?

Stopping power is a marketing tool and should be dropped from our discussions of ballistic performance until such time as ammunition effectiveness is measured by more means than just the results of gelatin and barrier tests. When ammunition companies or regulatory agencies begin to use computer simulations, simulant tests, animal models, autopsy results, and trauma surgeon operation reports with hospital summaries to determine the effectiveness of their products, then we will know which ammunition can be labeled as having the "best stopping power." And this claim will be based on scientific data rather than incomplete ballistic testing.

Until then, shot placement with any commercially available ammunition will offer you the best chance of maximizing your duty ammunition's stopping power.

Sydney Vail MD, FACS, is an associate professor of surgery on the trauma faculty at Penn State Milton S. Hershey Medical Center and Penn State College of Medicine in Hershey, Pa. He also serves as director of tactical medicine programs for the Arizona Department of Public Safety and Maricopa County (Ariz.) Sheriff's Office SWAT teams.

[MaDef]

Who said anything about "stopping power"? I didn't. Terminal ballistics on the other hand is real and quantifiable. and it is a fact that the .22 rimfire falls on the lower end of that scale.

[Catfish]

Found this interesting.. apart from other details evena subsonic bullet creates supersonic flow at the flanks
"Schlieren" is a german word for streaks or flow marks. Don't know why they use the german one here.

[Sean C]

Originally Posted by Catfish

"Schlieren" is a german word for streaks or flow marks. Don't know why they use the german one here.

That's just the commonly used name for the setup they're using. Probably because it was invented by German physicist August Toepler.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Found this interesting.. apart from other details evena subsonic bullet creates supersonic flow at the flanks
"Schlieren" is a german word for streaks or flow marks. Don't know why they use the german one here.

I’d imagine the guy who invented it was German. The name by which he called it just stuck. The U.S. English language is like that. Sure beats calling it the ‘slow motion illuminated air flow & wave photographic detection system’ or ‘the thingy that takes really kewl pictures of air’. . You say optik, we say optic. I spell house but pronounce it like you do because that’s how we roll in Wisconsin.

Nice video though

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Who said anything about "stopping power"? I didn't. Terminal ballistics on the other hand is real and quantifiable. and it is a fact that the .22 rimfire falls on the lower end of that scale.

22's can be used defensively, all things considered it is way down on the list of effective & Reliable calibers for stopping threats

When you use words such as terminal ballistics, effectiveness, reliability for stopping threats. To me are all the factors given when discussing ballistics i.e. ‘stopping power’ Sorry if I’m wrong, but that’s what I got out of it.

As I stated earlier it’s my opinion ballistics are not as important as shot placement & training. I’ve seen .25 cal APC ricochet and bounce right off a breast bone. Whereas as .22 lr like a 9mm will smash clean through. If you’re good with a 9mm that’s great, Anyone good with a .22 lr can do the same kind of damage and most likely place all rounds in the bullseye due to greatly reduced recoil.

Real Gunshot Wounds

The point here is that no single ammunition that is typically used by law enforcement officers today can reliably claim to have superior stopping power.

I have seen a .22 caliber bullet completely incapacitate someone and a .45 ACP fail to achieve that result. People and animals shot with 10mm rounds and .357 SIG rounds have continued to run from the police. I have been on scene as a tactical medical provider when a suicidal person shot himself in the head with a .45 Colt round resulting in instant death. And I have seen the same results in suicides that used smaller calibers, including .22, .25, and .32. I have also seen people hit with 9mm, .40, and .45 without so much as staggering or slowing their verbal or physical activities.

So we come back to the original question: Which ammunition has the best stopping power? I can't answer that question. What I can say is that you should look for ammunition that reliably lives up to its claims of penetration and expansion but don't believe that these two factors alone are related to stopping power.

The ultimate stopping power rests with your training with your weapon system. Accurate hits in any reasonable caliber will "stop" a person if that person has experienced enough brain or spinal cord damage to interrupt regular neurologic impulses from reaching vital areas of the body or the person has hemorrhaged enough blood to lower his or her blood pressure where the brain no longer is able to function well. You can also stop a person if a major bone shatters after a bullet injures it, but does that stop the fight?

Like Bill Jordan said, Ballistics is fine, but accuracy is final.

You take a 10 round magazine of 9mm, 10mm or .45 acp pistol. And I’ll take a 30 round magazine filled with .22 cal. WinMags in a PMR30. All can do damage and kill in one shot but because of the greatly reduced recoil I bet I’ll get more rounds in the bullseye than you and still have plenty left over

Then there is the human factor to contend with too as the good doctor in the above article has experienced first hand and shared. Not everyone will be affected by ballistics, velocities, impact energy, bullet weight, perceived stopping power or even a well placed shot or shots no matter how much you train. They just keep going.

[MaDef]

why do you keep trying to convince me a .22 rimfire round is as effective as a larger caliber centerfire round? Are you a .22 salesman or something?

You take a 10 round magazine of 9mm, 10mm or .45 acp pistol. And I’ll take a 30 round magazine filled with .22 cal. WinMags in a PMR30. All can do damage and kill in one shot but because of the greatly reduced recoil I bet I’ll get more rounds in the bullseye than you and still have plenty left over

putting aside you handicapping me with your 30rnds vs allowing me 10rnds, The holes I put in the bullseye will still be bigger than yours.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

https://i.redd.it/jd723x01lyka1.jpg

[mapuc]

^ Me think he has misunderstood a thing or two

Markus

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by mapuc

^ Me think he has misunderstood a thing or two

Markus

Uniform is "Cambodian" so...

[les green01]

defense shooting is max 10 feet the gunfight at the ok corral farest was 15 feet closet was 5 feet so we are not talking Hickok vs Tutt in springfield mo range at 75 yards i pack anything from a 22,380 to 45,500 mag now the 4 inch 500 s&w mag might be a little too much but you never know they might bring a grizz to the fight,main thing is to know the weapon and how it handles and practice every chance you get