Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[Skybird]

According to media reports, Russia has begun taking 50-year-old obsolete T-62 tanks from mothballed reserve stocks and deploying them in Ukraine.
No match for ATGMs (or modern tanks that the Ukrainians do not have, but T-72 still should be lethal enough). What crewmen are crazy enough to board them and drive them into battle...? Slow and clumsy even by Russian standards, no impressive range (and that with the poor logistics of the Russians...), thin-skinned (for a tank), and they say that thing just loves to burn if you just look too sharp at it. At the same time, as with all Russian tanks up to the T-90, the visibility for the crew and the targeting optics are probably rather lousy. Its 115mm smoothbore gave Western militaries concerns back in its time, but thats all about this model. Having been used in many wars, its battle scoring in past wars has impressed nobody even already back then.

Its a Putinistic machinery to get Russian soldiers killed.

[Dargo]

Attack on Severodonetsk intensified, 'city is important, but not in the economic field' The Ukrainian city of Severodonetsk is one of two cities in the Lugansk region that have not yet fallen into Russian hands. But the Russians are intensifying their attacks on the city and have surrounded it.

An estimated 12,000 to 13,000 civilians are still in the city, which had a population of over 100,000 before the war, reported Mayor Oleksandr Stryuk. According to him, some 60 percent of the residential buildings in the city have been destroyed. The city was briefly held by pro-Russian separatists in 2014, but was recaptured. After the pro-Russian capture of the city of Lugansk, many regional Ukrainian government tasks were transferred to Severodonetsk.

The fact that there has been such intense fighting around the city again for several weeks is mainly because of the strategic and symbolic importance of the small city, the siege of Severodonetsk are seen as an attempt to take the entire province of Lugansk.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

According to media reports, Russia has begun taking 50-year-old obsolete T-62 tanks from mothballed reserve stocks and deploying them in Ukraine.
No match for ATGMs (or modern tanks that the Ukrainians do not have, but T-72 still should be lethal enough). What crewmen are crazy enough to board them and drive them into battle...? Slow and clumsy even by Russian standards, no impressive range (and that with the poor logistics of the Russians...), thin-skinned (for a tank), and they say that thing just loves to burn if you just look too sharp at it. At the same time, as with all Russian tanks up to the T-90, the visibility for the crew and the targeting optics are probably rather lousy. Its 115mm smoothbore gave Western militaries concerns back in its time, but thats all about this model. Having been used in many wars, its battle scoring in past wars has impressed nobody even already back then.

Its a Putinistic machinery to get Russian soldiers killed.

However, these reports of T-62s allegedly being transported to the border by rail have not yet been confirmed by independent sources. Most of the Russian tanks destroyed in Ukraine were T-72s. Moscow still has thousands of T-72s in storage. Russia has some ten thousand tanks in storage, ranging from the widely used T-72 and the modern T-80 to the ancient T-62 from the 1960s.

My thought is if these transports are real, those T-62s are only for the separatist (There's never been any separatist's Russia fully controls, finances them, equips, trains and pays the wages of all military there) republic's to control their newly occupied areas after cease fire and most of Russian invasion equipment left those areas. The economic significance of the Donbas has been steadily declining over the past 20 years. For Russia, therefore, there is little to be gained economically. No matter how you look at it, it is an industrial area from the first half of the twentieth century. It needs incredible investment to make it an economically thriving area. It is politically and strategically important, but not more than that. Compare the Donbas with other impoverished industrial regions like the Borinage in Belgium.

[Dargo]

Psst Rusky, snack?

[ET2SN]

Originally Posted by Dargo

My thought is if these transports are real, those T-62s are only for the separatist (There's never been any separatist's Russia fully controls, finances them, equips, trains and pays the wages of all military there) republic's to control their newly occupied areas after cease fire and most of Russian invasion equipment left those areas.

You need to stick around once this thing dies down. That's some first class cypherin'.

[Skybird]

While Germany, france and other European NATO members endlessly talk about hpow to pretend one delievrs wepaons while one does not, the US seems to mull the dleiovery of M270 MRSL systems. Somethign with that range and Boom is desperately needed by the - artillery-wise: outgunned - Ukrainian forces -. The US also already has dleivered a high number of towed modern howitzers.

Still, BBC says:

Russian forces will not capture Luhansk in the coming days but Ukraine may have to evacuate some of its forces there for their own protection, the region's governor has said. "It is possible that in order not to be surrounded we will have to retreat," Serhiy Haidai wrote.In an evening military report he also described how dangerous everyday life was in the Ukrainian-controlled areas of Luhansk.
Remaining civilians "are constantly in shelters, it is almost impossible to go outside due to the density of shelling," he said.
Haidai added that Russian forces have been continuing to target the city of Severodonetsk, where fighting has broken out on the outskirts of the city.

Lavrov has threatened the crossing of a red line in case MLRS gets delivered. Somebody is worried, that means. Who cares.

I am just wondering whether the US is not worried that the system could end up in Russian hands? Or is it too old to be of technical intel value for them?


The delivery of Western artillery is needed for another reaosn as well: the ukrainians are running out of ammo for their Russian-made artillery, and that ammo is made and was delivered - by Russia. Which means there is no resupply being delivered, obviously. Western systems use different callibres.

[ET2SN]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Lavrov has threatened the crossing of a red line in case MLRS gets delivered. Somebody is worried, that means. Who cares.

How do you know when Lavrov is lying?

His lips are moving.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

While Germany, france and other European NATO members endlessly talk about hpow to pretend one delievrs wepaons while one does not, the US seems to mull the dleiovery of M270 MRSL systems. Somethign with that range and Boom is desperately needed by the - artillery-wise: outgunned - Ukrainian forces -. The US also already has dleivered a high number of towed modern howitzers.

Still, BBC says:

Russian forces will not capture Luhansk in the coming days but Ukraine may have to evacuate some of its forces there for their own protection, the region's governor has said. "It is possible that in order not to be surrounded we will have to retreat," Serhiy Haidai wrote.In an evening military report he also described how dangerous everyday life was in the Ukrainian-controlled areas of Luhansk.
Remaining civilians "are constantly in shelters, it is almost impossible to go outside due to the density of shelling," he said.
Haidai added that Russian forces have been continuing to target the city of Severodonetsk, where fighting has broken out on the outskirts of the city.

Lavrov has threatened the crossing of a red line in case MLRS gets delivered. Somebody is worried, that means. Who cares.

I am just wondering whether the US is not worried that the system could end up in Russian hands? Or is it too old to be of technical intel value for them?


The delivery of Western artillery is needed for another reaosn as well: the ukrainians are running out of ammo for their Russian-made artillery, and that ammo is made and was delivered - by Russia. Which means there is no resupply being delivered, obviously. Western systems use different callibres.

Better take your loss than lose your army there will be other days to fight

[Dargo]

U.S. to Send Advanced Rocket Systems to Kyiv, Officials Say
Mobile artillery launchers, expected to arrive within weeks, would enable Ukraine to strike Russian batteries in Donbas The Biden administration is expected to announce as early as next week it will send to Ukraine long-range rocket systems Kyiv says are necessary to fight off the Russian... https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-to-...ay-11653675804

[Skybird]

I just red minutes ago the opposite - that the Pentagon has dampened expectations and a decision has not been made this Friday. And that they are "mindful of the request.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I just red minutes ago the opposite - that the Pentagon has dampened expectations and a decision has not been made this Friday. And that they are "mindful of the request.

This made me recall what they once said in the news here. Biden has some advisor who will guide him in when he could do, without crossing the line. So maybe it could be why they are mindful of the request.

It's important for USA to give all the help to Ukraine without crossing the red line.

Markus

[Skybird]

Russia still eyes total victory and another major assault to capture Kyiv.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/05...own-in-the-end

Send Ukraine heavy weapons, weapons, weapons, Europe. No empty and thus: cheap phrases of solidarity that are worth nothing since they do nothing. But heavy weapons.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

This made me recall what they once said in the news here. Biden has some advisor who will guide him in when he could do, without crossing the line. So maybe it could be why they are mindful of the request.

It's important for USA to give all the help to Ukraine without crossing the red line.

Markus

Red line? What should that be? Fro the moment you give a pistol to the one side in a war, you have overstepped the red line between being neutral and being a party in that war: you have chosen your side.



If the Russians want to turn even nastier, they will always turn just evertyhing into a fake augment of that they have been provoked and that the toher overstepped a red line. All this tlakign about red lines is completely pointless and useless.



We have just two outcomes to chose from: either we want Ukraine victoriously defending its integrity and sovereignty (and obviously big nations in Europe like Germany and France do not want that), or we want the Ukraine to become an appendix of Russia and a fair chance of war against Russia in the forseeable future when it goes again after some foreign territories west of it.


Many people in Germany are so very anti-American that they prefer becoming Russian vasalls to being allied with America. You see a merciless stubborness to glorify Russia in the Eastgerman federal states, due to the life-long indoctrination during the GDR, but in the Bundestag also amongst the AfD, the SED, and significant parts of the SPD.



France wants business as usual again with Russia, and wants no big nation associated with Europe that potneitally could beocme a rival for one'S own ambitions. France needs Russian nculear fuel. Russia's Rosatom agency so far has been saved from any sanctions, AFAIK.



The Ukraine may quietly fall to the wayside.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Red line? What should that be? Fro the moment you give a pistol to the one side in a war, you have overstepped the red line between being neutral and being a party in that war: you have chosen your side.



If the Russians want to turn even nastier, they will always turn just evertyhing into a fake augment of that they have been provoked and that the toher overstepped a red line. All this tlakign about red lines is completely pointless and useless.



We have just two outcomes to chose from: either we want Ukraine victoriously defending its integrity and sovereignty (and obviously big nations in Europe like Germany and France do not want that), or we want the Ukraine to become an appendix of Russia and a fair chance of war against Russia in the forseeable future when it goes again after some foreign territories west of it.


Many people in Germany are so very anti-American that they prefer becoming Russian vasalls to being allied with America. You see a merciless stubborness to glorify Russia in the Eastgerman federal states, due to the life-long indoctrination during the GDR, but in the Bundestag also amongst the AfD, the SED, and significant parts of the SPD.



France wants business as usual again with Russia, and wants no big nation associated with Europe that potneitally could beocme a rival for one'S own ambitions. France needs Russian nculear fuel. Russia's Rosatom agency so far has been saved from any sanctions, AFAIK.



The Ukraine may quietly fall to the wayside.

I'm not an expert on Foreign politics or military politics I just wrote what this Danish reporter said in the news some weeks ago.

That Biden had some advisor who guided him so he didn't cross the red line.

Markus

[tmccarthy]