Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

^^ Wonder if this will change anything on the battlefield ?



https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-deplo.../31859993.html

Markus

could change if they get more heavy material

[Rockstar]

Original link: https://www.currenttime.tv/a/gopnik-...8TcatzbN9ne2pc

Google translate below:

"The gopnik is afraid of power. His teeth were knocked out - he immediately becomes peaceful and docile." Mikhail Podolyak - on the course of the war and negotiations with Putin

https://www-currenttime-tv.translate..._x_tr_pto=wapp

Mikhail Podolyak , adviser to the head of the office of the President of Ukraine , in an interview with Current Time explains why the Ukrainian authorities have not yet commented on the military from Azovstal, and also talks about the reason for the termination of peace talks with Moscow. According to him, now the best diplomat in the confrontation with Russia is a weapon:

“What other tool is there to return these people to an adequate state? The gopnik is afraid of power. So he came, started to pontificate, his teeth were knocked out. He immediately becomes peaceful and docile, immediately begins to hear, turns on the hearing aid. his teeth, his ears don't work. That's the problem of getting us weapons: we need them in order to restore the hearing of the Russian Federation," he described.

Podolyak separately emphasized that Moscow initially set the task in the war "to kill the potential of Ukraine - namely in the food, metallurgy, and chemical industries: this was a parallel goal that they set when they talked about the destruction of Ukraine as a state."

******

- Tell us what is happening at Azovstal in Mariupol, on what conditions do Ukrainian defenders surrender?

“I understand your question, but the evacuation is still ongoing. This is a rather difficult negotiation process, a rather complicated situation.

The Russian side differs, to my great regret, in that it constantly changes the terms of the negotiation process. And we made a decision: until this difficult negotiation session, this difficult negotiation evacuation, is definitely over, not to comment on what is happening in detail, and so on. Why? So that no one can put any words in our claims, which then, for obvious reasons, will cause a strange reaction from the Russian Federation.

Moreover, you can see that even the evacuation process itself caused a whole stormy propaganda reaction. Many statements come from the highest officials of the Russian Federation, from ordinary people who demand some kind of excesses, some kind of murders, and so on and so forth.

Therefore, let's do this: the operation will end, the evacuation will end in full, when everything will be in order with people, when people will receive proper assistance in accordance with all conventions, that is, when the Russian Federation nevertheless remembers that even during a war there is legal regulation that regulates relations with the military personnel of another country (I'm not even talking about civilians, but about the military personnel of another country), then, probably, we will be able to comment on something in a large volume. Today we have such an information time, and many people are very fond of collecting additional likes without having access to information: they pretend that they really know something, and thus create certain illusions. Let's stick very strictly to the key rule of the war.

- In the case of Azovstal, you managed to consolidate Ukrainian politicians and officials - practically no one says anything about this. But if we can't talk about the conditions, tell me, do you have data on how many people came out?

- We can't talk about people, we can't talk about the state they're in, except what, of course, is shown officially by the Russian side from the point of view that they provide proper assistance. We hope that this is being done in full, and this is very important.

I emphasize once again that all this is fixed in a legal context and so on. I think that everything that concerns the war in general, the details, is a matter of the near future, when everything can be told, it will be possible to discuss, especially from a legal point of view. And this is very important.

You know, I generally have a paradoxical attitude to everything, it is a little unusual, I guess. I think that it is absolutely necessary, and not in terms of the fact that I represent Ukraine. I believe that for Russia, for Russian society, it is extremely important that Russia be defeated in this war - so that all this hysteria, unthinkable propaganda is also defeated. Then Russia will probably still be able to renew itself somehow from within and, perhaps, come to some other public consensus on what rules one should live by.

Otherwise, if, for example, Russia today does not lose, at least does not receive a significant loss, then this whole conservative situation that we are seeing today, this whole hysteria, madness - it will be mothballed and after some time will break through again. It will be such an abscess.

I believe that the defeat now, the key task of defeating the Russian Federation, is the key task of the world community in terms of treating the Russian Federation. Paradoxical thought? That is, if we want to save a country like the Russian Federation, we want to save society, we want to enable this civilization to develop further, then yes, it is probably necessary that it lose, rethink itself and now exist in a different form. That is, probably, then it will be able to integrate more into modern humanistic civilization, into the humanistic community in which we, for example, Ukraine, are.

– Mikhail, the day before, when it became known that the United States Senate had voted to allocate $40 billion to help Ukraine, you wrote on your Twitter that a weapon is the best diplomat and a weapon is a translator into a language that Russia understands. And yet, at the level of diplomacy, are any negotiations currently underway with the Russian Federation? I mean not on the exchange of prisoners, this is understandable, but on some kind of peace treaty?

- You are asking the right question. But I’ll ask you a counter question: name another instrument for me when you meet a gopnik on the street who understands only force? That is, he is not intellectual, he is not ready to talk about literature, art, and so on, he boasts that he can bring anyone to his knees. What tool, besides strength, are you still ready to use? We will apply it.

Russia says: "Look, NATO is fighting against us." NATO is not fighting against them, Ukraine is fighting against them. They talk about some kind of "special operation", but at the same time they always forget that they entered foreign territory, kill foreign citizens and at the same time say that "we are liberating something." But after all, on the air it is obvious that no one supports them on any territory, they are simply hated. This entire army that entered Ukraine is not digested by all people. It is obvious.

Tell me what tool we can use when you say: "Look, guys, here is the live broadcast, here are your crimes, here is your behavior, here is your way of waging war - this is all on the table, let's discuss it. Here are the specifics "This is not fiction, we are not engaged in propaganda, we have an open country, we have allowed everyone to come and everyone can see it. Please tell us how you want us to discuss this?"

And they hung up this idiotic St. George's ribbon here and start talking back about some Nazis, Nazi battalions, biological laboratories - this whole crazy kind of hell in which they live. And what, besides strength, in relation to them in a conversation is another argument possible? That is, apart from weapons today, unfortunately, there are no arguments, it happened.

Why, in fact, Ukraine, and the President of Ukraine, Mr. Zelensky, and all of us are talking about please give us weapons. Not because weapons are an end in themselves for Ukraine, no. We were a peaceful state, we had no offensive weapons at all. Offensive weapons are cruise missiles, which, as you can see, only Russia uses. She bombs our cities. We do not bomb Russian cities, we do not have cruise missiles, we do not make Russian citizens wake up at night in some Saratov, Yaroslavl, Vladimir, Ivanovo to the sound of sirens. No, we don't, I emphasize, we don't! We do not have and did not have cruise missiles.

But the Russian Federation calmly sends dozens of missiles every night - Odessa, Lvov, Kyiv, Dnipro, Chernigov, just districts and villages - just throws cruise missiles. There are such conditional men sitting, because it is hardly possible to call people who fire remotely at peaceful cities men. So they decide: "Let's bomb a village in the Chernihiv region today," and they press a button and giggle.

What other tool is there to return these people to an adequate state? The gopnik is afraid of power. So he came, he began to show off there, his teeth were knocked out, he immediately becomes peaceful and accommodating, he immediately begins to hear, turns on his hearing aid. And until the moment he has teeth, his ears do not work. This is how it would have turned out in Russia: they have whole teeth - their ears do not work. There will be no teeth - I'm sure the ears will work. This is the problem of obtaining weapons for us, we need them in order to restore the hearing of the Russian Federation.

– Did I understand your answer to my question correctly, that negotiations with Moscow are not underway now?

– Negotiations are also a tool, a mandatory tool during a war. Of course, there is a military component, there is a diplomatic component, there is a negotiation component. But negotiations are a platform where the parties, firstly, adequately evaluate themselves, and secondly, adequately assess the course of hostilities and, in addition, the position of their country, and so on.

Today, unfortunately, Russia has returned to such an initial, not entirely clear idea of ​​​​the world and its role in the world, has not yet realized that it has been fighting against Ukraine for 85 days, and not against NATO, I emphasize again. Naturally, this prevents them from adequately perceiving the negotiation process as well.

Therefore, the negotiations are suspended until the moment when the side that will sit on the other side of the table cannot, in the end, objectively look at what they are doing, at war crimes, on the one hand, at the position of Ukraine and at how we must get out of this war.

– [Negotiations] are suspended by you? Ukrainian side?

– No, they are objectively suspended. See, it's the same with human relationships. If the parties are not interested, do not see mutual points of discussion, then they will not be interested in communicating. The same is true in the negotiation process. There is nothing to talk about, there are no intersecting lines, when the parties are ready to clearly and objectively, I emphasize, logically explain their motives. It's hard to listen all the time when they say to you: "You have Nazis there."

And you say: "Look, guys, once again, the sponsors of world Nazism is only one state - the Russian Federation. And the ideological concept that underlies today's political vertical of Russia is Nazism. This is yours." When they start telling you about some countless battalions, millions of Nazi battalions that need to be destroyed, you understand that there is no common ground. This is the obvious thing.

- The day before, the director of the UN World Food Program asked Putin to unblock Ukrainian seaports so that Ukraine could still supply agricultural products to the world market. Otherwise, he says, the world will face a huge food crisis, just starvation will begin in some countries and everything that will follow from this. In response, Deputy Foreign Minister Andrei Rudenko said that the ports could be unblocked if anti-Russian sanctions were lifted. And in parallel to this news: The Wall Street Journal writes, citing its sourcesthat the United States is considering the possibility of temporarily lifting sanctions on Belarusian potash fertilizers in exchange for the transit of Ukrainian grain through Belarus. How do you assess the prospects that the United States and the European Union will agree to lift some anti-Russian sanctions in exchange for unblocking Ukrainian ports?

- You know, this will be a very strange position, because it will be the so-called unfinished business, which will lead to further escalation and further growth of the tragedy under the name. They do not want to call it a third world war, but, in fact, it looks like this, because many countries are already involved in it indirectly, some directly.

Look, Russia is always blackmailing, it is always ready to kill people in order to get some additional opportunity for itself. But nevertheless, as soon as she gets this additional opportunity for herself. Suppose some of the sanctions were lifted from it - this will stimulate it to further escalate the conflict, not only in Ukraine. That is, if they understand that the world is really weak, the way it was before the start of the war in Ukraine. And before the start of the war in Ukraine, I will remind you, Russia constantly blackmailed the world with the fact that if you do not agree to some agreements, then we will use force. We will scare you with nuclear weapons there, we will, relatively speaking, finance some terrorist organizations like Hamas and so on and so forth, which, in fact, they did. We will take part in the Syrian conflict on the side of an understandable group, and so on. That is, Russia constantly blackmailed the world, constantly received certain bonuses for this.

That is paradoxical: the world always says that it is impossible to negotiate with terrorists. But at the same time, you always go for blackmailing Russia, and as a result, you make concessions, and Russia constantly raised the stakes.

So, is there still such a risk?

– Russia is constantly raising the stakes. Now it will be the same. If you go along with Russia by lifting part of the sanctions, for example, then in the end Russia will continue to escalate the conflict in Ukraine and continue to set the following conditions. And it can be ad infinitum. And thus the conflict in Ukraine will in any case grow as much as possible, they will force both equipment and manpower here. Sooner or later, other European countries will be involved directly in the fighting.

I don't quite understand why the world needs this? I understand the United Nations, they have always taken a rather strange view of global conflicts, all the time it was very easy to buy into blackmailing certain terrorists. But it seems to me that at this moment there will be no concessions to the Russian Federation, no one will agree to lift any sanctions.

Ukraine will insist that we must maintain a very strict triumvirate. The first is a weapon for Ukraine. The second is a full package of sanctions, including the sixth and seventh, including direct and indirect embargoes. And, finally, the third is money for Ukraine, through which we will be able to support our economy, which is really falling today.

Look what Russia is doing. Russia is not just ideologically trying to fight against Ukraine, Russia is simultaneously destroying the same export infrastructure for us: transshipment, elevators, transport system, ports, and so on. Russia is doing this on purpose. Understand that the initial goal of the war was, among other things, to strike at this infrastructure, the task was to kill the potential of Ukraine - namely in the food, metallurgical, chemical industries, in terms of export potential. This was one of the goals. A parallel goal that they set when they talked about the destruction of Ukraine as a state.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Are you prepared to pay the price it will cost.
I agree with you we should intervene and drive Russia out.. But the price would be too high in my taste.
Markus

I would go and fight myself. I would also take inflation and put up with a bit of inconvenience economy-wise. F'k the money, this is not about it.
Russia is blackmailing with nuclear war. So Europe bought this bull and is anxious?
Ukraine is fighting this war for all of Europe. I say go in FULLY, boots on the ground, and only "conventional". What do you think Russia would do then?
Lose. And fast.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I would go and fight myself. I would also take inflation and put up with a bit of inconvenience economy-wise. F'k the money, this is not about it.
Russia is blackmailing with nuclear war. So Europe bought this bull and is anxious?
Ukraine is fighting this war for all of Europe. I say go in FULLY, boots on the ground, and only "conventional". What do you think Russia would do then?
Lose. And fast.

I was not talking about money. Far from it

What I meant was the cost of lost life(military and civilians) the cost of lost infrastructure.

Of course if we don't do anything now we may end with what we are trying to prevent today a WWIII.

Markus

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by mapuc

[...] What I meant was the cost of lost life(military and civilians) the cost of lost infrastructure.
Of course if we don't do anything now we may end with what we are trying to prevent today a WWIII.
Markus

What do you think Denmark will lose of its infrastructure, or Germany, or France, in case European countries fight in Ukraine?
Remember, only conventionally. Russia will abstain from firing ANYTHING towards Poland, or Germany, let alone Denmark. In the second it does NATO is officially involved.
As Rockstar quoted, break their teeth. Then they will negotiate, not a second earlier.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Catfish

What do you think Denmark will lose of its infrastructure, or Germany, or France, in case European countries fight in Ukraine?
Remember, only conventionally. Russia will abstain from firing ANYTHING towards Poland, or Germany, let alone Denmark. In the second it does NATO is officially involved.
As Rockstar quoted, break their teeth. Then they will negotiate, not a second earlier.

People or should I say volunteers from these countries are already fighting in Ukraine a friends friend(have met him a few times) Is a Danish trained Navy Seal and he left some weeks ago Denmark to fight in Ukraine-he hopes that he can be a part of this Famous Ukrainian special forces.(My friend told this on the phone)

Edit
Been thinking-What if Catfish is right that Russia is nothing than a toothless tiger.
It would still be a risc to intervene-Not the same as saying we shouldn't do it-But are we prepared to pay the price ? I'm talking about million of Dead European civilians and Russian - Russia may have some huge fangs.
End edit

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I would go and fight myself. I would also take inflation and put up with a bit of inconvenience economy-wise. F'k the money, this is not about it.
Russia is blackmailing with nuclear war. So Europe bought this bull and is anxious?
Ukraine is fighting this war for all of Europe. I say go in FULLY, boots on the ground, and only "conventional". What do you think Russia would do then?
Lose. And fast.

All war is about money. A war without money is not lasting long.

I understand your feelings, I even share them, but the cold blooded mind must prevail.

[Catfish]

But Germany has the money. Europe has the money.
NATO military and communications material is compatible, the latter encrypted.
Stopping an ongoing war in Ukraine would limit the costs, in particular compared to the alternatives and the later wars with Russia inevitably coming.
Russia will not be able to sustain this war for long, let alone with european immediate and direct support to Ukraine.
Yes it will be inconvenient.
re Markus there will be dead soldiers, no doubt. But not millions.

[mapuc]

“Putin is in an absolute dead end. He cannot stop the war and he cannot win it. He cannot win for objective reasons. And to stop it, he must acknowledge that Russia is not at all the kind of strong and great state that he wanted to portray,” Gen. Budanov said.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine...ys-11653046810

Markus

[Dargo]

Ukrainian troops say they destroyed a Russian battalion tactical group.

The group was liquidated while attempting to cross the Siversky Donets river near the village of Serebryanka in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine’s 30th Mechanized Brigade said. The Ukrainian soldiers said they had destroyed dozens of Russian troops and several units of equipment, as well as a pontoon bridge.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Ukrainian troops say they destroyed a Russian battalion tactical group.

The group was liquidated while attempting to cross the Siversky Donets river near the village of Serebryanka in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine’s 30th Mechanized Brigade said. The Ukrainian soldiers said they had destroyed dozens of Russian troops and several units of equipment, as well as a pontoon bridge.

To me it looks more and more like the Russian is being humiliated. The question is what they are going to do when they also come to this conclusion ?

Markus

[Dargo]

Moscow. May 21. INTERFAX.RU - Russian Transport Minister Vitaly Savelyev said that there are serious problems with logistics in Russia in connection with the anti-Russian sanctions.

"Those sanctions that have been imposed on Russia today have practically ruined all logistics in our country. And we are forced to look for new logistics corridors," he told reporters on Saturday during a visit to the Astrakhan region.

Savelyev noted that there is a well-known international transport corridor "North-South" and the Caspian Sea direction is directly involved in this corridor. These are three ports - the port of "Olya", the port of "Astrakhan" and the port of "Makhachkala".

As the Minister explained, "and due to the fact that we are considering this direction, of course, it is not only ports, but also approaches to the ports, bridges and roads, we should not have bottlenecks that would not allow us to rebuild.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by mapuc

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine...ys-11653046810

Markus

Apparently everybody including Putin knows that by now and no wonder he sits miles away from any potential Ivan von Stauffenberg. I still say drive Russia out and to hell with Putin.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Apparently everybody including Putin knows that by now and no wonder he sits miles away from any potential Ivan von Stauffenberg. I still say drive Russia out and to hell with Putin.

Some psychology expert said some weeks ago on Danish TV that Putin live in his own imaginary world.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Some psychology expert said some weeks ago on Danish TV that Putin live in his own imaginary world.

Markus

So what? I live in mine but I don't try to take over my neighbors yard because it has a pool.