Here we go again-Ukraine once again - Page 275

Skybird · 05-20-22, 11:02 AM

Smugly-sweetly formulated (in German at least)! The NZZ writes:

On the night train to Kiev Selenski lets his colleagues play the role of their lives. Some may think that the trips to the Ukrainian capital are pure self-dramatization of Western politicians. Also, yes, but they are much more.

The Austrians carried smoke grenades in their hand luggage. If they had been caught in a shootout, they would have retreated to safety under the cover of a cloud of smoke, according to the plan. The emergency did not materialize, and Chancellor Karl Nehammer made it unmolested to Kiev in April and back to the Vienna Hofburg unharmed. There, he will perhaps be able to put the smoke petards to better use.

The Ukrainian capital has never been a dream destination for political missions. Nowadays, Kiev is both a duty and a nightmare for politicians from the West. Those who go can do many things very wrong and few things very right; those who don't go do something and therefore everything wrong. And once in Kiev, the most difficult thing is to show the right face to go with statesmanlike words. It is necessary to wrinkle the forehead at the right moment and without grimacing, to look confident and shaken in equal measure, not to let the pathos tip over into political kitsch.

As always, Boris Johnson was a master of insouciance and thus of authentic style during his visit to Kiev. He always plays himself. This is the role he masters best. And that fits even when it should be inappropriate. Not even in terms of fashion was he willing to make concessions. While all the others, from Annalena Baerbock to UN Secretary-General António Guterres, came in casual attire and thus paradoxically wanted to signal the seriousness of the situation, Johnson appeared as usual: in a baggy suit that slouched around his corpulent body, with a white shirt and blue tie. It meant nothing less than, "I'm on duty."

Together with Volodimir Selensky, he stormed through the almost empty streets of Kiev on April 9, accompanied by a surprisingly small number of heavily armed bodyguards, as if the devil (or Scotland Yard) were after him. But when one of the few passers-by approached him, he did not miss the opportunity to pause for an exchange and sing the praises of the president in front of the Kiev citizens. In the press conference with Selensky, he again addressed the Ukrainian people: "I bow to the bravery of the people of Ukraine. The world has new heroes thanks to you."

While Boris Johnson plays only himself really well, Volodimir Selensky, as a professional actor, masters several subjects of roles. He has understood better than anyone that politics requires theatrical staging and that a person is not a cynic if he also knows how to play what he stands for politically. It is only of anecdotal importance that since the outbreak of the war he has only appeared in olive green and sturdy shoes. In any case, the image and its message are clear and forceful. Whereby the trousers are always one size too big and the T-shirt one size too small, suggesting an astonishingly trained upper body.

Even more important is his rhetorical virtuosity. Soon there will be no parliament to which he has not spoken via video link. But no matter who he addresses, he knows at which sore point he can reach people. Sometimes it's as simple as his "I have a need" speech to the U.S. Congress, where he could be sure that everyone would hear Martin Luther King's "I have a dream. Sometimes the simplest ideas are the most effective. At the opening of the Cannes Film Festival on Tuesday, Selenski spoke to the assembled guests, reminding them of Charlie Chaplin's film "The Great Dictator" and urging them not to remain silent in turn.

In the meantime, Selenski has long since rewritten and expanded the script. The prelude was given on March 15 by the heads of government of Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovenia, when they set off on what was then still considered a thoroughly daring journey by night train to Kiev. Since then, a real race to Kiev has developed, in which both vanities and slights are cultivated according to the temperament of the travelers. While German Chancellor Scholz is still playing coy, his Austrian counterpart boasted on April 9 that he was the fourth European head of government to visit Kiev since the outbreak of the war.

Presumably, Boris Johnson arrived a few hours after him, which puts the latter in only 5th place in the rankings, which, as a practiced egocentric, should matter precious little to him.
Now, again, it is easy and therefore somewhat cheap to mock this travel behavior - actively promoted by Selenski. Of course, the home audience travels on the night train, even if not everyone travels with an entourage like Chancellor Nehammer: Twenty journalists were in his entourage and as many security forces (own and Ukrainian), moreover, medical personnel and in the luggage, in addition to petards, emergency rations from own army stocks.

And of course then sometimes the reporting or even the self-representation is in inverse proportion to the importance of the traveler. German opposition leader Friedrich Merz took the cake in this regard. From the overnight train on the morning of his arrival, he tweeted a video message to his fan base at home. "All safe, all good and Ukrainian authorities extremely cooperative, very pleasant people." What did he expect? All villains?

The journey from the Polish border to Kiev is long, up to twelve hours. That's when travelers think of one thing or another. Not everything would have to be told right away. The strange renaissance of the night train, on the other hand, turns the business trip into a small adventure. This, too, tempts people into heroic self-portrayals. Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala even wore a helmet and protective vest on the train.

No, there is no reason to make fun of these trips. Nor are they offensive - at least no more offensive than many other things in politics. After all, politics is not only about debates and resolutions, it must above all be communicated and presented. It is a stage on which what is played is taken seriously. And as on any stage, what is represented must be greater than reality. Therefore, what we see are signs or symbols. The trained actor Selenski has grasped this more precisely than many of his counterparts (who, after all, are willing to play along).

The Kiev travelers believe they are the main actors in this play. They are it for their home audience, when they put their faces into wrinkles and unpack the really big words. In the broader picture, they are just staffage. The focus is on the stage, namely Kiev and its settings. For every trip of a politician to Kiev is above all a signal in the direction of Moscow.

No one had understood this as well as Boris Johnson and acted accordingly. Right down to the bright blue tie, he made it clear without ambiguity: The visit was to a country and a city in a state of emergency, but the visit itself was business as usual. Johnson's message to Putin was: You may shoot up the country, but you're not going to get me to wear body armor or make a state visit in jeans and a casual jacket.

Meanwhile, the world is puzzling over when Emmanuel Macron will finally board the overnight train to Kiev. The French president is usually very good at symbolic gestures. Here, either his instincts have failed him - or he is worried about his suit or fears Putin's revenge.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, on the other hand, has already ceased to amaze. Now, at the beginning of the week, he revealed to the television station RTL that he would probably not be going to Kiev any time soon, because during a visit to the country "it must be important to make concrete progress. This should not just be a photo opportunity.

And for all those who might not have noticed the hint with the fence post and the kick in the leg, he added one more thing: "I will not join a group of people who do something for a short in and out with a photo opportunity. But when I do, it's always about very specific things." Maybe someone would have to tell him what play is currently being performed at Schaubühne Kiev. Perhaps someone would have to tell him that symbols - even if it's something as disreputable as a photo opportunity - are sometimes just as important in politics as "very concrete things." Because they are very concrete things

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Dargo · 05-20-22, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

The Swiss are stirring.
https://intellinews.com/switzerland-...e-test-244573/

The Swiss need to do a mandatory referendum to get this done, so it has be to approved by the population

Rockstar · 05-20-22, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Bang.

Haha. Just a guess but, I was reading a little bit about Swiss ammunition exports. Seems they make the ammo for the Gepard but because of Swiss ‘Neutrality’ they will not authorize Germany to re-export the Swiss made ammo to Ukraine.

Doubt they join NATO but appear to want to work closer with NATO. Realizing there’s a buttload of money to be made by shedding a little bit of that cloak of neutrality.

Dargo · 05-20-22, 11:20 AM

Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine has been going on for three months. However, the fact that the current hostilities are taking place exclusively on the territory of Ukraine does not prevent the destruction of Russia’s critical and military infrastructure. Recently, there has been more and more news about the arson attacks on Russian military enlistment offices, explosions at fuel and lubricant storage facilities, fires at military and important civilian infrastructure facilities. Zaborona, together with military analyst Yigal Levin, is investigating who may be behind it and whether it will benefit Ukraine.

https://zaborona.com/en/explosions-a...s-of-zaborona/

There is information that there is a large anti-war movement in Russia that is not about slogans or rallies (because slogans and rallies are not for Russia), but namely about sabotage... it can already be called guerrillas in Russia

Dargo · 05-20-22, 12:02 PM

The aggressor has spent a rocket to destroy a toilet on the beach in Odesa region - City Council

The Russian military fired a rocket at Odesa and destroyed the beach toilet... https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/20/7347451/

Reece · 05-20-22, 06:51 PM

Jeff-Groves · 05-20-22, 07:04 PM

Probably suspected the Guy that sunk the Russian Ships was hiding there.

Jimbuna · 05-21-22, 08:00 AM

Jimbuna · 05-21-22, 08:06 AM

Jimbuna · 05-21-22, 08:14 AM

The war in Ukraine can only be resolved through "diplomacy", President Zelensky says despite a deadlock in negotiations.

He says “we want everything to return (to as it was before)" but "Russia does not want that"

President Biden has signed a bill to provide new military, economic and humanitarian aid for Ukraine worth nearly $40bn (£32bn), the White House says.

Russia's military says Mariupol's Azovstal steelworks has been "completely liberated", with the last Ukrainian defenders surrendering.

British Foreign Secretary Liz Truss says she wants to see Ukraine's neighbour Moldova "equipped to Nato standard" to help it guard against the threat of a Russian invasion.

Finland's state-owned gas operator has confirmed that Russia has switched off the supply to the country.

Catfish · 05-21-22, 01:54 PM

Ukraine War: Russian forces suffer heavy losses in the Donbas region

The russian invasion has turned the Donbas into a scrapyard, they have destroyed the smallest villages with indiscriminate bombing and shelling. In a way one could hope that Russia has to deal and pay with building all this up again.
I guess few people will want to live there after this is over.

Dargo · 05-21-22, 02:01 PM

President Volodymyr Zelensky said in a televised interview on May 21 that 700,000 defenders of Ukraine are fighting all across the country, Ukrainska Pravda reported.

mapuc · 05-21-22, 02:22 PM

^^ Wonder if this will change anything on the battlefield ?

Quote:

Terminators are the result of Russia's quest to develop vehicles designed for fighting in tight urban spaces. That need became urgent after the first Chechen war in which massive numbers of Russian armored vehicles were wiped out by Chechen fighters

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-deplo.../31859993.html

Markus

Catfish · 05-21-22, 02:24 PM

I take it that Russia takes every perceived weakness of Ukraine as a reason to fight on, and kill, and destroy. Any hint of diplomacy or trying to put an end to the war will therefore be rejected by Putin.
I HOPE i am wrong.

I am not sure what to make of it. Russia's miltary is depleted, Ukraine will not be able to defend like this forever. Europe and NATO are much too reluctant to go fully in against Russia, they bought Putin's blackmail of a nuclear war. Bull, but they did.

Russia will want to take the entire south of Ukraine, cutting it off from the black sea, and this means taking Odessa. Russia will not be content with less, so Ukraine either accepts that or Russia has to be driven out by force, everywhere.
Also, even with an end of war now, Russia will try again in 3-5 years to occupy the rest of Ukraine.

Conclusio is still that Europe and NATO should go fully in, and drive Russia out, now.

mapuc · 05-21-22, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Conclusio is still that Europe and NATO should go fully in, and drive Russia out, now.

Are you prepared to pay the price it will cost.

I agree with you we should intervene and drive Russia out..But the price would be too high in my taste.

Markus

05-20-22, 11:02 AM	#4111
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,499 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Smugly-sweetly formulated (in German at least)! The NZZ writes: On the night train to Kiev Selenski lets his colleagues play the role of their lives. Some may think that the trips to the Ukrainian capital are pure self-dramatization of Western politicians. Also, yes, but they are much more. The Austrians carried smoke grenades in their hand luggage. If they had been caught in a shootout, they would have retreated to safety under the cover of a cloud of smoke, according to the plan. The emergency did not materialize, and Chancellor Karl Nehammer made it unmolested to Kiev in April and back to the Vienna Hofburg unharmed. There, he will perhaps be able to put the smoke petards to better use. The Ukrainian capital has never been a dream destination for political missions. Nowadays, Kiev is both a duty and a nightmare for politicians from the West. Those who go can do many things very wrong and few things very right; those who don't go do something and therefore everything wrong. And once in Kiev, the most difficult thing is to show the right face to go with statesmanlike words. It is necessary to wrinkle the forehead at the right moment and without grimacing, to look confident and shaken in equal measure, not to let the pathos tip over into political kitsch. As always, Boris Johnson was a master of insouciance and thus of authentic style during his visit to Kiev. He always plays himself. This is the role he masters best. And that fits even when it should be inappropriate. Not even in terms of fashion was he willing to make concessions. While all the others, from Annalena Baerbock to UN Secretary-General António Guterres, came in casual attire and thus paradoxically wanted to signal the seriousness of the situation, Johnson appeared as usual: in a baggy suit that slouched around his corpulent body, with a white shirt and blue tie. It meant nothing less than, "I'm on duty." Together with Volodimir Selensky, he stormed through the almost empty streets of Kiev on April 9, accompanied by a surprisingly small number of heavily armed bodyguards, as if the devil (or Scotland Yard) were after him. But when one of the few passers-by approached him, he did not miss the opportunity to pause for an exchange and sing the praises of the president in front of the Kiev citizens. In the press conference with Selensky, he again addressed the Ukrainian people: "I bow to the bravery of the people of Ukraine. The world has new heroes thanks to you." While Boris Johnson plays only himself really well, Volodimir Selensky, as a professional actor, masters several subjects of roles. He has understood better than anyone that politics requires theatrical staging and that a person is not a cynic if he also knows how to play what he stands for politically. It is only of anecdotal importance that since the outbreak of the war he has only appeared in olive green and sturdy shoes. In any case, the image and its message are clear and forceful. Whereby the trousers are always one size too big and the T-shirt one size too small, suggesting an astonishingly trained upper body. Even more important is his rhetorical virtuosity. Soon there will be no parliament to which he has not spoken via video link. But no matter who he addresses, he knows at which sore point he can reach people. Sometimes it's as simple as his "I have a need" speech to the U.S. Congress, where he could be sure that everyone would hear Martin Luther King's "I have a dream. Sometimes the simplest ideas are the most effective. At the opening of the Cannes Film Festival on Tuesday, Selenski spoke to the assembled guests, reminding them of Charlie Chaplin's film "The Great Dictator" and urging them not to remain silent in turn. In the meantime, Selenski has long since rewritten and expanded the script. The prelude was given on March 15 by the heads of government of Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovenia, when they set off on what was then still considered a thoroughly daring journey by night train to Kiev. Since then, a real race to Kiev has developed, in which both vanities and slights are cultivated according to the temperament of the travelers. While German Chancellor Scholz is still playing coy, his Austrian counterpart boasted on April 9 that he was the fourth European head of government to visit Kiev since the outbreak of the war. Presumably, Boris Johnson arrived a few hours after him, which puts the latter in only 5th place in the rankings, which, as a practiced egocentric, should matter precious little to him. Now, again, it is easy and therefore somewhat cheap to mock this travel behavior - actively promoted by Selenski. Of course, the home audience travels on the night train, even if not everyone travels with an entourage like Chancellor Nehammer: Twenty journalists were in his entourage and as many security forces (own and Ukrainian), moreover, medical personnel and in the luggage, in addition to petards, emergency rations from own army stocks. And of course then sometimes the reporting or even the self-representation is in inverse proportion to the importance of the traveler. German opposition leader Friedrich Merz took the cake in this regard. From the overnight train on the morning of his arrival, he tweeted a video message to his fan base at home. "All safe, all good and Ukrainian authorities extremely cooperative, very pleasant people." What did he expect? All villains? The journey from the Polish border to Kiev is long, up to twelve hours. That's when travelers think of one thing or another. Not everything would have to be told right away. The strange renaissance of the night train, on the other hand, turns the business trip into a small adventure. This, too, tempts people into heroic self-portrayals. Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala even wore a helmet and protective vest on the train. No, there is no reason to make fun of these trips. Nor are they offensive - at least no more offensive than many other things in politics. After all, politics is not only about debates and resolutions, it must above all be communicated and presented. It is a stage on which what is played is taken seriously. And as on any stage, what is represented must be greater than reality. Therefore, what we see are signs or symbols. The trained actor Selenski has grasped this more precisely than many of his counterparts (who, after all, are willing to play along). The Kiev travelers believe they are the main actors in this play. They are it for their home audience, when they put their faces into wrinkles and unpack the really big words. In the broader picture, they are just staffage. The focus is on the stage, namely Kiev and its settings. For every trip of a politician to Kiev is above all a signal in the direction of Moscow. No one had understood this as well as Boris Johnson and acted accordingly. Right down to the bright blue tie, he made it clear without ambiguity: The visit was to a country and a city in a state of emergency, but the visit itself was business as usual. Johnson's message to Putin was: You may shoot up the country, but you're not going to get me to wear body armor or make a state visit in jeans and a casual jacket. Meanwhile, the world is puzzling over when Emmanuel Macron will finally board the overnight train to Kiev. The French president is usually very good at symbolic gestures. Here, either his instincts have failed him - or he is worried about his suit or fears Putin's revenge. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, on the other hand, has already ceased to amaze. Now, at the beginning of the week, he revealed to the television station RTL that he would probably not be going to Kiev any time soon, because during a visit to the country "it must be important to make concrete progress. This should not just be a photo opportunity. And for all those who might not have noticed the hint with the fence post and the kick in the leg, he added one more thing: "I will not join a group of people who do something for a short in and out with a photo opportunity. But when I do, it's always about very specific things." Maybe someone would have to tell him what play is currently being performed at Schaubühne Kiev. Perhaps someone would have to tell him that symbols - even if it's something as disreputable as a photo opportunity - are sometimes just as important in politics as "very concrete things." Because they are very concrete things Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-20-22, 06:51 PM	#4116
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 32,747 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	__________________ *Sub captains go down with their ship!*

05-20-22, 07:04 PM	#4117
Jeff-Groves Village Idiot Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,319 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	Probably suspected the Guy that sunk the Russian Ships was hiding there. __________________ I don't do Stupid. So don't ask.

05-21-22, 08:00 AM	#4118
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,217 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

05-21-22, 08:06 AM	#4119
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,217 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

05-21-22, 08:14 AM	#4120
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,217 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	The war in Ukraine can only be resolved through "diplomacy", President Zelensky says despite a deadlock in negotiations. He says “we want everything to return (to as it was before)" but "Russia does not want that" President Biden has signed a bill to provide new military, economic and humanitarian aid for Ukraine worth nearly $40bn (£32bn), the White House says. Russia's military says Mariupol's Azovstal steelworks has been "completely liberated", with the last Ukrainian defenders surrendering. British Foreign Secretary Liz Truss says she wants to see Ukraine's neighbour Moldova "equipped to Nato standard" to help it guard against the threat of a Russian invasion. Finland's state-owned gas operator has confirmed that Russia has switched off the supply to the country. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

05-21-22, 01:54 PM	#4121
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Ukraine War: Russian forces suffer heavy losses in the Donbas region The russian invasion has turned the Donbas into a scrapyard, they have destroyed the smallest villages with indiscriminate bombing and shelling. In a way one could hope that Russia has to deal and pay with building all this up again. I guess few people will want to live there after this is over. __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 05-21-22 at 02:03 PM.*

05-21-22, 02:24 PM	#4124
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	I take it that Russia takes every perceived weakness of Ukraine as a reason to fight on, and kill, and destroy. Any hint of diplomacy or trying to put an end to the war will therefore be rejected by Putin. I HOPE i am wrong. I am not sure what to make of it. Russia's miltary is depleted, Ukraine will not be able to defend like this forever. Europe and NATO are much too reluctant to go fully in against Russia, they bought Putin's blackmail of a nuclear war. Bull, but they did. Russia will want to take the entire south of Ukraine, cutting it off from the black sea, and this means taking Odessa. Russia will not be content with less, so Ukraine either accepts that or Russia has to be driven out by force, everywhere. Also, even with an end of war now, Russia will try again in 3-5 years to occupy the rest of Ukraine. Conclusio is still that Europe and NATO should go fully in, and drive Russia out, now. __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 05-21-22 at 02:33 PM.*