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Old 08-07-2019, 01:11 AM   #46
Herman
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Originally Posted by AzureSkies View Post
As of the moment, a high sea state already decreases the effective seeker range of cruise missiles.

So implementing a high sea state making it harder to detect the missiles themselves should be coming soon...
Sounds very promising. I was also wondering if severe sea states might actually inhibit missile engagements due to the sea-skimmers hitting high waves.

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I'll also have to experiment to see if the sea state already naturally decreases ships' max speed. I don't know if you noticed, but in the sailing video, the velocity indicator of the ship was bobbing around on the map - the waves actually push and pull on the ship. Theoretically, this should naturally create the speed reduction seen IRL by high seas. But it doesn't seem to be showing up on the speed dial - but that may be because of how it determines speed.
Good to see the effect of sea state on speed. I urge some restraint on the number of calculations or updates. For example, if there is constant fluctuation in the sea state indicator due to constant revision of the final digit, then it can be more of a distraction than a help. i.e. if the state is 6.27 and the '.7' is forever an amorphous blur as it constantly goes up and down, then the precision really isn't helping the game. Is it really necessary to know sea state to that 100th level of precision?
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Old 08-07-2019, 02:07 AM   #47
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Sounds very promising. I was also wondering if severe sea states might actually inhibit missile engagements due to the sea-skimmers hitting high waves.
A solid possibility. Presumably a real missile would be using radar to determine height and attempting to avoid hitting the water. I'll see if there's something computationally efficient I can do with the code to simulate this, because there may be...

My bet is that it won't be able to function reliably above Sea State 7 or so. Being all-weather capable is an advertised feature of the newest Harpoon missiles, implying old versions had a max sea state. These would be Block Is, Block IBs and Block ICs, a far cry from the modern block IIER+.

Also happen to know from old research on the Juliet that it couldn't fire its missiles above Sea State 6. Technically that's very different, but broadly it shows how even 70's and 80's navies could be rather severely limited by weather with their missiles.

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Good to see the effect of sea state on speed. I urge some restraint on the number of calculations or updates. For example, if there is constant fluctuation in the sea state indicator due to constant revision of the final digit, then it can be more of a distraction than a help. i.e. if the state is 6.27 and the '.7' is forever an amorphous blur as it constantly goes up and down, then the precision really isn't helping the game. Is it really necessary to know sea state to that 100th level of precision?
Oh, the sea state indicator shown was just for that demonstration video. Real UI for that will be very different.
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:31 PM   #48
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This looks really good! I can't wait to hear more!

Just some questions I have off the top of my mind:
1. Do you plan for a sound delay due to distance for any loud transients/explosions? Cold Waters does that thing where you watch a target explode ten kiloyards away and the explosion comes instantaneously, which of course isn't realistic (but seeing that CW allows you to view events from many different positions not modeling a sound delay is understandable).
2. The Harpoon seems to be tracking the stern of the Azov instead of dead center. Is this true to life?
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:43 AM   #49
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AzureSkies, will you integrate CIWS in game for anti-missile duties? If CIWS will be operational, could it engage surface and air targets?
I know, CIWS weapon range in naval warfare is like a punch range in gun fight. Still, possibility of it is amusing.
For example, in War Thunder AK-230 in close ranges (<2 km) is a threat even to a destroyers.
Example #2: in Wargame: Red Dragon CIWS alongside with autocannons can be used to engage naval and air targets (especially when missiles were exhausted).
Anyway, best luck with development!

Last edited by Phaeton; 08-14-2019 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 08-13-2019, 07:34 PM   #50
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Apologies, but this week's update won't be ready tonight. It will be posted by tomorrow night, though, and I'll reply to questions here, as well.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:25 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longface View Post
This looks really good! I can't wait to hear more!

Just some questions I have off the top of my mind:
1. Do you plan for a sound delay due to distance for any loud transients/explosions? Cold Waters does that thing where you watch a target explode ten kiloyards away and the explosion comes instantaneously, which of course isn't realistic (but seeing that CW allows you to view events from many different positions not modeling a sound delay is understandable).
2. The Harpoon seems to be tracking the stern of the Azov instead of dead center. Is this true to life?
1. I've noticed that, and personally love the feature. Wouldn't be simple to implement within the Unity game engine, though, unfortunately. Other things are taking priority, but this is a detail I'd like to be able to include.

2. It depends on the particular missile, but old enough ones will go for whatever the biggest radar reflector is, I'd guess. As to the video I posted, though, I'll probably fix that pretty easily by implementing lead into the terminal homing phase. There's already lead in some of the other calculations the missile does, so it'd be a simple fix.

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AzureSkies, will you integrate CIWS in game for anti-missile duties? If CIWS will be operational, could it engage surface and air targets?
I know, CIWS weapon range in naval warfare is like a punch range in gun fight. Still, possibility of it is amusing.
For example, in War Thunder AK-230 in close ranges (<2 km) is a threat even to a destroyers.
Example #2: in Wargame: Red Dragon CIWS alongside with autocannons can be used to engage naval and air targets (especially when missiles were exhausted).
Anyway, best luck with development!
Definitely for anti-missile and anti-aircraft. Most CIWS systems are highly autonomous and will shoot anything closing in too fast and too close. How sensor systems are planned to be scripted, it won't even bother to differentiate between incoming missiles and aircraft.

And I do plan to have them able to engage other ships, too. That's very simple to do, especially given there's a variety of other weapon systems that will be able to target multiple platform types, anyways (SS-N-14 "Silex" missiles, RIM-66 SM-1 SAMs, and ship guns like the Mk45 or AK130 just to name a few).

Thanks!

Weekly update coming shortly. It's about time for that vehicle highlight...
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:56 PM   #52
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Default VEHICLE HIGHLIGHT

This week, we'll be taking a look at the USS Spruance, the first and titular ship of the Spruance-class destroyer.

The ships were being built right into the year Blue Water takes place, 1983, making them the new, modern ships of the time, including automated guns and digital weapon control systems.



With the increasing threat from improving Soviet Submarine technology, their designed task was to serve as ASW escorts for carrier battle group.



Working from bow to stern, first we have our Mark 45 5" guns. These have a rate of fire of 16-20 rounds per minute each, and have an effective range of 24 km, and a magazine with 600 rounds.



Behind it is the Mk. 16 Mod 7 RUR-5 ASROC launcher. Although the Spruance itself was new, the ASROC dated back to the 60's. They could launch either a 10-kt W44 nuclear depth charge or a Mk.46 torpedo 19 km. Upon arriving to the specific location, the Mk.46 would separate, parachute, enter the water, and begin searching for nearby submarines.

The Spruance also carried two additional reloads for each in the launcher, for a total of 24 missiles.





Above the bridge and above the hanger is a Phalanx Block 0 CIWS. These are newer than the Spruance itself, with the USS Spruance not originally having been built with them, and only having just, in 1983, barely been modernized with their addition. Their weapon is an M61 Vulcan capable of putting out 3,000 20mm rounds per minute. Its primary role is to shoot down incoming missiles, though it's also more than adequate against any nearby aircraft. Usage against ships is also possible.





Below are the two quad RGM-84A Harpoon canisters. Being 1983, some RGM-84Cs would be in service as well. These sea-skimming, high-subsonic cruise missiles have a range of 92.6 km.

They have the name "harpoon" because they were originally designed in the 60's as a counter to surfaced Soviet submarines - thus they were weapons to be used against large submerging leviathans, and were called the "harpoon".

While their uses are far more general than that, that role may still prove useful should an Echo or Juliet surface and begin preparing to fire from a far (but not far enough) distance.

Notice the starboard canister has expended two missiles.





Next we have, what may arguably be the most useful ASW weapon on the Spruance. Given the Seasprite has already gotten its own highlight, there's not much to add here. These will prove invaluable in expanding the search area against Soviet "whales", or making full use of the RUR-5's range.



Being primarily an ASW vessel, the Spruance only had (relatively) short-range RIM-7 Sea Sparrows for extended air defense beyond the Phalanx's range. Like the ASROC, it only has a range of 19 km - but against sea-skimming missiles, this may be all the warning you'll get, anyways. Like most SAMs, it is semi-active radar homing.





And finally, all too easy to miss, yet still a possible godsend in the worst scenarios...



A pair of Mark 32 Triple torpedo tubes on each side of the ship, in a torpedo room within the ship's aft hull, for six Mk. 46 torpedoes ready to launch at any time.





And finally, two more shots of the Spruance during the day - with the last one to show the hanger in the closed position.



Believe it or not, both of the helos actually can fit in that hanger... But only barely.



That's it for this week, please keep the questions and comments coming, and I'll shoot to be more timely for next week. Until then, good sailing.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:22 PM   #53
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Absolutely stunning. Love the R2D2! Also, the Seasprite flies now! One thing, though, anything white seems to glow, I think they reflect too much light. Everything else looks lovely.

Are you still aiming for the November release of the game?
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:57 PM   #54
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Absolutely stunning. Love the R2D2! Also, the Seasprite flies now! One thing, though, anything white seems to glow, I think they reflect too much light. Everything else looks lovely.

Are you still aiming for the November release of the game?
I think it's worth it to get the sparkling water, though getting everything white to not be so blinding but keeping the sparkling water would be ideal. Should definitely be possible. Will look into it.

As for November, aiming is the key word, here. I'm beginning to wonder if it's realistic - it may have to be delayed, but I'm not ready to give up on it quite yet.
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:07 PM   #55
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Default WEEKLY UPDATE

Hello again,

There's not a whole lot to show off - not all work is equally flashy, as I'm sure most here are already aware, but progress is still happening.

One part of that that does create some nice eye candy, though, is recently the model for the P-500 Bazalt has been done, so I decided to make a video and put some pictures together so there's something to show off this week.

With a range of 550 km, cruising at Mach 2.5 and either a 1,000 kg high explosive warhead or a 350 kt nuclear warhead, it is not a missile you want to go up against. The one saving grace is they couldn't/didn't fly lower than 50 meters, and made rather large targets, being about 12 meters long and a meter wide.

It was made to fire in Salvos of eight, and the Slava-class carried sixteen.



















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Old 08-20-2019, 08:39 PM   #56
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Awesome! The cruise missile looks great!
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:20 AM   #57
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With a range of 550 km, cruising at Mach 2.5 ...
That is generally how Harpoon simulates the missile, too.

However, I remember an NWAC developer saying that the missile in his game had a slower cruise speed in transit and only increased speed when it neared the target area because it would have insufficient fuel for maximum speed throught the flight profile.

I would not profess to know which behaviour is wrong or right. Have you considered different operational parameters?
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:10 AM   #58
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Default looks good

All i can say is this game is looking good and looking forward to its development
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:14 PM   #59
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Awesome! The cruise missile looks great!
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All i can say is this game is looking good and looking forward to its development
Thanks!

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That is generally how Harpoon simulates the missile, too.

However, I remember an NWAC developer saying that the missile in his game had a slower cruise speed in transit and only increased speed when it neared the target area because it would have insufficient fuel for maximum speed throught the flight profile.

I would not profess to know which behaviour is wrong or right. Have you considered different operational parameters?
This got me digging again.

So, to clarify, these are P-500 Bazalts. These were later upgraded to P-1000 Vulkans, which do have a terminal boost to above mach 3, but weren't cleared for service until the late 80's.

Some sources cite the Bazalt's top speed as Mach 2.5, others cite it as Mach 2 or even Mach 1.7. In any case, its drag would be largely dominated by wave drag. Wikipedia had some nice equations for wave drag. Approximating the Bazalt as a double-wedge aerofoil to get its drag at Mach 2.5, then using the specific fuel consumption of the R-15 turbojet (in afterburner) (since it's a turbojet engine from a similar era, so fuel economy should be very similar), I found it'd only take a few hundred kg of fuel for it to travel its entire range at Mach 2.5, using fairly conservative estimates.

The research on the missile is interesting, though. Learned more detail on their guidance AI and found a small tweak I'll probably make to their visual launch effects. This is another funny case where realism will probably look unrealistic - real pictures of Bazalts or Vulkans launching show an impressively large flame plume from the booster rockets.

On the topic of its guidance, I haven't spoken at length about the Bazalt's guidance software, but as some here may know, it was very impressively sophisticated. I haven't gone over it yet because I'm not sure I can implement it on the game's Early Access release, but realism holds some interesting challenges when it comes to balance.
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:28 PM   #60
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Some sources cite the Bazalt's top speed as Mach 2.5, others cite it as Mach 2 or even Mach 1.7. In any case, its drag would be largely dominated by wave drag. Wikipedia had some nice equations for wave drag. Approximating the Bazalt as a double-wedge aerofoil to get its drag at Mach 2.5, then using the specific fuel consumption of the R-15 turbojet (in afterburner) (since it's a turbojet engine from a similar era, so fuel economy should be very similar), I found it'd only take a few hundred kg of fuel for it to travel its entire range at Mach 2.5, using fairly conservative estimates.
Sources often vary, which begs the big question, will players be able to modify operational data if they feel one source is more credible than another? This is how it is done in both Harpoon and NWAC, the games do not profess to be omniscient. Players can enter their own operational data parameters. Of course, there are some self-important developers (of games that cannot be mentioned) who think they know it all and only have one set of 'allowable and acceptable' performance data.

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Originally Posted by AzureSkies View Post
On the topic of its guidance, I haven't spoken at length about the Bazalt's guidance software, but as some here may know, it was very impressively sophisticated. I haven't gone over it yet because I'm not sure I can implement it on the game's Early Access release, but realism holds some interesting challenges when it comes to balance.
I read about a hypothetical Soviet missile guidance system whereby one missile acted as the targeting system facilitator for a group of other missiles that actually carried warheads. This was supposedly used to facilitate long-range over-the-horizon engagements. It was only mentioned in a novel, so I do not know if it ever existed or not (probably not.)

Will the game be able to simulate and allow such potential systems?
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