Sinking of the Bismark

She-Wolf · 12-31-11, 10:01 AM

Hello all, just wanted to share with you, and ask what you think.
We were channel-hopping on the tv last night and came across a documentary on the sinking of the Bismark, so watched that. It was interesting, in an awful sort of way but I felt really upset at the end of it and it left me with two questions. The first question I think I have found the answer to on Wiki.

The question was 'why did the British ships keep attacking the Bismark even when it was clear that she could not fire back and was defeated?' It seemed unnecessary and I would have thought it would have been a greater feather in the cap of the Royal Navy if they could have brought the ship back to the UK, were that possible.

The answer seems to be that until Bismark lowered her flag, or it was clearly seen that her crew were abandoning her, hostilities had to continue - one of the protocols of war I suppose.

The second question was to do with why the two British ships tasked with rescuing the German sailors from the sea suddenly stopped and steamed away leaving a couple of hundred men ( one source puts it nearer to 800 men) to die in the freezing water (only four survived and were rescued by their own side some time later it seems). I understand that the British ships thought they had seen a U-boat and decided it was prudent to retire for the safety of their own men - but did they really think a U-boat would attack the ships that were saving German lives? And why would the U-boat - if it was really there, show itself if it had intended to attack? Perhaps the master of the U-boat was actually intending to join in the rescue as well. However, as the abandoned men did not get immediately picked up by any U-boat once the ships had left, I suspect there was no U-boat until the one that came by later when only four men were still alive.
I found it deeply upsetting, and I guess the British sailors would have felt really bad about it.
One of the German survivors rescued by HMS Dorsetshire said that they were kindly treated by the English sailors; 'like brothers' or some similar description I think he said - as indeed they were in their shared experiences of being a sailor in wartime.

Sailor Steve · 12-31-11, 10:54 AM

This article will give you a lot of insight into the battle itself. Unfortunately it doesn't address your questions. I just thought you might find it interesting.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Bismarck_p1.htm

As to your first question, I would imagine it's hard to tell what's going on aboard a burning wreck, even at a range of less than 4000 yards. I feel fairly certain that they were more intent on making sure the ship could not be salvaged by her owners than with any concern for her crew. And they had lost well over a thousand of their own to Bismarck's guns just a few days earlier.

As for abandoning rescue efforts, all I can say is that in combat one does not always think clearly. Part of the World War One battle of Jutland was decided by 'periscope' sightings, with the British battlefleet turning away from percieved dangers. Sad as it may be, it's what happens when people get excited.

She-Wolf · 12-31-11, 10:56 AM

thank you Steve, I will go take a look at the link now

... yes, interesting. too much to read through now, but I read the account given by Mr Statz - what a terrifying experience.

12-31-11, 11:40 AM

Question 1 - Why not go on shooting? As long as Bismarck had not struck her colours she remained a legitimate target. There were many precedents and the Royal Navy was familiar with HMAS Sidney vs. SMS Emden at Cocos-Keeling and SMS Nurnburg vs. HMS Monmouth at Coronel. In both of these 1914 examples the winner shelled the crippled loser into submission or until it sank and in Monmouth's case, with no survivors. I would doubt that at the time, many gave leaving a second thought.

Question 2 - Ultra intercepts had indicated to Commander Home Fleet that at least one U-Boat was in the vicinity and more were on the way. It would have been criminally irresponsible to keep his ships on station to rescue Germans given that threat. The spurious "spotted periscope" story may have been an intelligence deception to protect Ultra although in fact U-556 (KL Herbert Wolfharth) actually spotted HMS Ark Royal but had no torpedoes left. The RN learned the hard way not to rescue survivors in U-Boat infested waters and it was the German's who taught them the lesson.

I suspect the post-war "Brotherhood of the Sea" mythology was a sop to the media. Nicholas Monserrat in "The Cruel Sea" probably gives a far better point of view of how the average RN personnel saw Hitler's navy at the time.

She-Wolf · 12-31-11, 11:56 AM

thank you Randomizer. War is no place for softies it seems

Torplexed · 12-31-11, 12:00 PM

On December 26th 1943, the German battlecruiser Scharnhorst was sunk in the Battle of North Cape. Of the 1,968 men aboard only 36 were recovered before Allied ships hastily departed the area leaving the remaining survivors to quickly perish in the Arctic waters.

John Hale was on board the British cruiser Jamaica:

'We were all of the same mind. We had to win. Our hearts have mellowed now, but in wartime those hearts are hardened. It was their ship, their pride and joy, and after the Home Fleet had finished with her, she was at the bottom of the Barents Sea.'

I guess the lesson is that sentimentality is for peacetime.

She-Wolf · 12-31-11, 12:56 PM

Torplexed, I hear what you are saying, and that such times would surely stir up strong passions in the men at the sharp end and who would need to have a clear sense of 'them' and 'us' to be able to do an unpleasant job and with no freedom to think kinder thoughts toward their enemy - but I would not use the term 'sentimentality' to describe actions which, in more peaceful times would be considered right and proper. Compassion, mercy, helping the helpless whoever he may be.

Sailor Steve · 12-31-11, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Nicholas Monserrat in "The Cruel Sea" probably gives a far better point of view of how the average RN personnel saw Hitler's navy at the time.

Actually I thought Monsrrat portrayed the "brotherhood of the sea" very well in that book. Of course that may be because I read it after I read his introduction to Heinz Schaeffer's U-Boat 997. Ol' Nick was downright nasty in that one.
http://www.amazon.com/U-Boat-Introdu...5357952&sr=8-2

12-31-11, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually I thought Monsrrat portrayed the "brotherhood of the sea" very well in that book. Of course that may be because I read it after I read his introduction to Heinz Schaeffer's U-Boat 997. Ol' Nick was downright nasty in that one.
http://www.amazon.com/U-Boat-Introdu...5357952&sr=8-2

Well Steve, having just recently re-read The Cruel Sea I suspect you're remembering parts of it wrong at least. Finding the following passages was easy and there are a number of others:

Page 187. Lockhart gets a bit drunk on leave and contemplating the necessity of being cruel and impersonal in the War, before he is bundled into a taxi by a helpful Bobby: "There must be Germans too, who felt like that; deluded, but sincere in the humanities: good soldiers, good sailors, good airman who felt they were destroying a perverted English conquest. It's a pity that they have to be killed as well."

Page 236. Compass Rose gets her U-Boat returning from the disastrous Gibraltar convoy. As they are making preperations to rescue the handful of survivors Lt Morell comments "These are my favourite kind of survivors... they invented the whole idea themselves. I want to see how they perform."
Later "Cocky lot of bastards,' said Wainwright, the torpedo-man sullenly: we ought to leave them in the soak. ..."

Page 239. Erickson is discussing burial at sea for a dead German sailor with the U-Boat's captain and faced with colossal arrogance has threatened to have him shot. 'You're a bastard in any language' Erickson interrupted coldly. He felt another violent surge of anger. I could do it he thought, in amazement at his wild feeling: I could do it now as easily as snapping my fingers. 'I'm not particular in getting you back to England' he said slowly and carefully. 'We could bury you this afternoon if I felt like it. ...Just watch it, that's all - just watch it'
He turned and strode from the cabin. Outside, he wondered why he was not ashamed of himself.

Page 241. Erickson decides to show off his captives to Viperous. 'They're a scruffy-looking lot' Erickson called out apologetically, as the men shambled into view, peering about them like mice leaving the shelter of the wainscot. 'I think we ought to win the war, don't you?'

Page 341. While getting Saltash ready for workups: "The hateful struggle, to be effective, demanded one-hundred per cent from many millions of individual people: death was in this category of demand, and lower down the list, the cancellation of humanity was an essential element in the total price."

Page 392. Saltash gets her last U-Boat on the Arctic run. They scoop up some wreckage including two buckets of human remains. Sailors are standing around the evidence of the kill chatting:
"What's the skipper want with this lot? Bloody minded old bastard."
"It's evidence. Got to take it home with us. They won't believe it otherwise."
"That's the kind of Jerry I want to see."
"Looks more like tripe and onions."
"Don't tell the cook, for Christ's sake."
"Must be a months meat ration here. Wait till I tell the wife."

I suspect that Monserrat did an excellent job of capturing the hardening of feelings against the U-Boat crews in the Battle of the Atlantic.

She-Wolf · 12-31-11, 03:51 PM

I read this book many years ago, as a teen-ager, and even then found it powerful stuff. Must get a copy and read it again now you folks have mentioned it.

Sailor Steve · 12-31-11, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Well Steve, having just recently re-read The Cruel Sea I suspect you're remembering parts of it wrong at least. Finding the following passages was easy and there are a number of others:

I don't find any of those passages troublesome at all. He's expressing the feelings that sailors have, and the first passages actually is what I was referring to in my comment.

Quote:

I suspect that Monserrat did an excellent job of capturing the hardening of feelings against the U-Boat crews in the Battle of the Atlantic.

In the passages you quoted he mentions the feeling that the Germans must feel the same. The hatred is generated by the nature of war.

In his intro to U-Boat 997 he openly states that Heinz Schaeffer's writes good stories, but not to believe him when he talks about comeraderie. Moserrat then says that all Germans were ravening nazis and shouldn't be trusted. This is a far cry from what I got from The Cruel Sea.

Sailor Steve · 12-31-11, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by She-Wolf

I read this book many years ago, as a teen-ager, and even then found it powerful stuff. Must get a copy and read it again now you folks have mentioned it.

You might also want to check a library for Monsarrat At Sea, a collection of his wartime articles and some new material which tells the true story of the Corvettes he served on.

Here is the mini-review I did of the book back when I read it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...9&postcount=90

[edit] I went looking for a copy for myself and found several at very good prices. Look at #16 for a good copy close to you. Click on the 'Booksellers' link in that post to get them directly. At that price you can't go wrong.

[edit] I got so excited I just spent more than I needed to ($15.50 USD) for a copy in 'Very Fine' condition. I thought it would be a whole lot more.

She-Wolf · 01-01-12, 05:44 AM

ah, thank you Steve, will take a look

this made me chuckle.

East Coast Corvette: Unlike his characters, who stay together for the war, Monsarrat was transferred to the British east coast when he was made first lieutenant. he relates many stories of dealing with attacks by German bombers and "e-boats" (Schnellboote).
Quote:
Lookout: "Aircraft, 10 degrees to starboard, sir!"
Self (using loudhailer so foc'sle crew will understand: "The aircraft approaching the starboard bow is a Hudson of Coastal Command. It can be recognized by the twin tails and thick fuselage..."
Lookout (respectfully): "Stick of bombs coming down, sir!"

I have to go to library this week, will look for anything Monsarrat - ta muchly sir.

ps have just been told by Best Beloved that I ought to read The Good Shepherd by C S Forester as well...

12-31-11, 10:54 AM	#2
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	This article will give you a lot of insight into the battle itself. Unfortunately it doesn't address your questions. I just thought you might find it interesting. http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Bismarck_p1.htm As to your first question, I would imagine it's hard to tell what's going on aboard a burning wreck, even at a range of less than 4000 yards. I feel fairly certain that they were more intent on making sure the ship could not be salvaged by her owners than with any concern for her crew. And they had lost well over a thousand of their own to Bismarck's guns just a few days earlier. As for abandoning rescue efforts, all I can say is that in combat one does not always think clearly. Part of the World War One battle of Jutland was decided by 'periscope' sightings, with the British battlefleet turning away from percieved dangers. Sad as it may be, it's what happens when people get excited. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

12-31-11, 10:56 AM	#3
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	thank you Steve, I will go take a look at the link now ... yes, interesting. too much to read through now, but I read the account given by Mr Statz - what a terrifying experience. __________________ Last edited by She-Wolf; 12-31-11 at 11:11 AM.

12-31-11, 11:56 AM	#5
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	thank you Randomizer. War is no place for softies it seems __________________

12-31-11, 12:00 PM	#6
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	On December 26th 1943, the German battlecruiser Scharnhorst was sunk in the Battle of North Cape. Of the 1,968 men aboard only 36 were recovered before Allied ships hastily departed the area leaving the remaining survivors to quickly perish in the Arctic waters. John Hale was on board the British cruiser Jamaica: 'We were all of the same mind. We had to win. Our hearts have mellowed now, but in wartime those hearts are hardened. It was their ship, their pride and joy, and after the Home Fleet had finished with her, she was at the bottom of the Barents Sea.' I guess the lesson is that sentimentality is for peacetime. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

12-31-11, 12:56 PM	#7
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	Torplexed, I hear what you are saying, and that such times would surely stir up strong passions in the men at the sharp end and who would need to have a clear sense of 'them' and 'us' to be able to do an unpleasant job and with no freedom to think kinder thoughts toward their enemy - but I would not use the term 'sentimentality' to describe actions which, in more peaceful times would be considered right and proper. Compassion, mercy, helping the helpless whoever he may be. __________________

12-31-11, 10:01 AM	#1
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	Sinking of the Bismark Hello all, just wanted to share with you, and ask what you think. We were channel-hopping on the tv last night and came across a documentary on the sinking of the Bismark, so watched that. It was interesting, in an awful sort of way but I felt really upset at the end of it and it left me with two questions. The first question I think I have found the answer to on Wiki. The question was 'why did the British ships keep attacking the Bismark even when it was clear that she could not fire back and was defeated?' It seemed unnecessary and I would have thought it would have been a greater feather in the cap of the Royal Navy if they could have brought the ship back to the UK, were that possible. The answer seems to be that until Bismark lowered her flag, or it was clearly seen that her crew were abandoning her, hostilities had to continue - one of the protocols of war I suppose. The second question was to do with why the two British ships tasked with rescuing the German sailors from the sea suddenly stopped and steamed away leaving a couple of hundred men ( one source puts it nearer to 800 men) to die in the freezing water (only four survived and were rescued by their own side some time later it seems). I understand that the British ships thought they had seen a U-boat and decided it was prudent to retire for the safety of their own men - but did they really think a U-boat would attack the ships that were saving German lives? And why would the U-boat - if it was really there, show itself if it had intended to attack? Perhaps the master of the U-boat was actually intending to join in the rescue as well. However, as the abandoned men did not get immediately picked up by any U-boat once the ships had left, I suspect there was no U-boat until the one that came by later when only four men were still alive. I found it deeply upsetting, and I guess the British sailors would have felt really bad about it. One of the German survivors rescued by HMS Dorsetshire said that they were kindly treated by the English sailors; 'like brothers' or some similar description I think he said - as indeed they were in their shared experiences of being a sailor in wartime. __________________ Last edited by She-Wolf; 01-01-12 at 12:48 PM.

12-31-11, 11:40 AM	#4
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Question 1 - Why not go on shooting? As long as Bismarck had not struck her colours she remained a legitimate target. There were many precedents and the Royal Navy was familiar with HMAS Sidney vs. SMS Emden at Cocos-Keeling and SMS Nurnburg vs. HMS Monmouth at Coronel. In both of these 1914 examples the winner shelled the crippled loser into submission or until it sank and in Monmouth's case, with no survivors. I would doubt that at the time, many gave leaving a second thought. Question 2 - Ultra intercepts had indicated to Commander Home Fleet that at least one U-Boat was in the vicinity and more were on the way. It would have been criminally irresponsible to keep his ships on station to rescue Germans given that threat. The spurious "spotted periscope" story may have been an intelligence deception to protect Ultra although in fact U-556 (KL Herbert Wolfharth) actually spotted HMS Ark Royal but had no torpedoes left. The RN learned the hard way not to rescue survivors in U-Boat infested waters and it was the German's who taught them the lesson. I suspect the post-war "Brotherhood of the Sea" mythology was a sop to the media. Nicholas Monserrat in "The Cruel Sea" probably gives a far better point of view of how the average RN personnel saw Hitler's navy at the time.

12-31-11, 03:51 PM	#10
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	I read this book many years ago, as a teen-ager, and even then found it powerful stuff. Must get a copy and read it again now you folks have mentioned it. __________________

01-01-12, 05:44 AM	#13
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	ah, thank you Steve, will take a look this made me chuckle. East Coast Corvette: Unlike his characters, who stay together for the war, Monsarrat was transferred to the British east coast when he was made first lieutenant. he relates many stories of dealing with attacks by German bombers and "e-boats" (Schnellboote). Quote: Lookout: "Aircraft, 10 degrees to starboard, sir!" Self (using loudhailer so foc'sle crew will understand: "The aircraft approaching the starboard bow is a Hudson of Coastal Command. It can be recognized by the twin tails and thick fuselage..." Lookout (respectfully): "Stick of bombs coming down, sir!" I have to go to library this week, will look for anything Monsarrat - ta muchly sir. ps have just been told by Best Beloved that I ought to read The Good Shepherd by C S Forester as well... __________________ Last edited by She-Wolf; 01-01-12 at 10:31 AM.