US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

By the way, how is it possible for a civilised country not to have a primary citizen ID?

The country was originally a coalition of thirteen smaller countries, which is why today they are still called States and not Provinces. Every State has its own ID, usually a driver's license. If one is not able to obtain a license, or doesn't care to drive, there are State ID cards available, at least where I live. Proof of State citizenship is considered proof of US citizenship.

I mean, how does one prove that he is a US citizen if so required? How about passport that people use to traval abroad, wont everyone have one?

State Department records say that only 36% of Americans hold passports. I haven't had one since I was twelve, and that was 1962.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by vienna

Actually, there has been, in the past, a rather vocal opposition to voter ID from those of the Far-Right end of the spectrum. I recall listening to talk radio shows from the 60s through the 80s and there were always some Right Wing caller who would get all het up when the subject of national IDs came up and voter IDs were right up there on their list of 'gubbamint' efforts to be resisted; their thinking was any form of standardized, universal ID, even on a state level, was just another means of the Big Brother 'commanists' trying to account for every citizen, at all times, and, ya know, once they got you in their files, they was a commin' ta git ya! It was akin to the current tinfoil hat crowd's obsession with subcutaneous RFID chips and the like and their belief any form of mass ID is just a ploy to get us in a massive database. The big difference now is that the Right is pushing the idea they once held in suspicion and the Left is now opposing with new suspicions. Maybe, in another twenty or thirty years, the roles will be reversed again...<O>

Related but not the same, A national ID requirement is different than just a voter id requirement. As far as I'm aware there are no laws requiring a citizen to carry ID papers. The voter ID laws are more akin to a drivers license (you don't need one unless you are operating a motor vehicle). So you won't need to show ID except at the polls to show you are in fact eligible to vote.

Originally Posted by August

Of course not, just as a certain type of Democrat acted as if George Bush (either of them) declared himself dictator for life and sent out his evil, gun-jacking nazi-dentists to take away everyone's or at least someone's freedom and rights.

Uh, yeah, don't we all remember the countless debates about any of the bush presidents want to become dictators...

And please enlighten me how my post or my views are "fanatical".
Either, you simply don't know what fanatical means, or by now you have to reflect on a whole new level to not see yourself in that accusation.
Of all the people here*, you are the resident nationalist who argues based on national pride instead of reason or - god beware - facts (maybe alternate facts?).
You are the one that told people of other nations to keep out of "American topics". You are the one who had to be reminded by Neal, who I consider very patriotic, what freedom of speech, expression and this forum is about - multiple times!

But sure, go ahead and tell me what a fanatic I am. What a joke!


*I excluded yubba because he is either just a master troll or simply a lost case, he simply doesn't matter.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

By the way, how is it possible for a civilised country not to have a primary citizen ID?

I mean, how does one prove that he is a US citizen if so required? How about passport that people use to traval abroad, wont everyone have one?

The individual states have their own ID cards, they are generally recognized from one state to another for ID purposes. The ONLY ID you need to prove citizenship inside the U.S. is a birth certificate and social security #. (both issued at birth) One issued via the state where the birth occurred, the other via the Federal government.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

. Proof of State citizenship is considered proof of US citizenship.

I think that may not be true in the near future, The TSA is getting ready to start rejecting ID cards from certain states beginning next year. So expect the idea of a national ID card to be front and center again in the next 5-10 years.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by MaDef

The individual states have their own ID cards, they are generally recognized from one state to another for ID purposes. The ONLY ID you need to prove citizenship inside the U.S. is a birth certificate and social security #. (both issued at birth) One issued via the state where the birth occurred, the other via the Federal government.

Is it correct to assume then that every citizen has both social security number and the birth certificate?

If so, why not attach voting registration to them?

[Bilge_Rat]

so it turns out there has been at least one scientific study on potential voter fraud which concluded it could be as high as 15%.

In spite of substantial public controversy, very little reliable data exists concerning the
frequency with which non-citizen immigrants participate in United States elections.
Although such participation is a violation of election laws in most parts of the United
States, enforcement depends principally on disclosure of citizenship status at the time of
voter registration. This study examines participation rates by non-citizens using a nationally
representative sample that includes non-citizen immigrants. We find that some
non-citizens participate in U.S. elections, and that this participation has been large enough
to change meaningful election outcomes including Electoral College votes, and Congressional
elections. Non-citizen votes likely gave Senate Democrats the pivotal 60th vote
needed to overcome filibusters in order to pass health care reform and other Obama
administration priorities in the 111th Congress.

see the abstract, and

Our exploration of non-citizen voting in the 2008 presidential
election found that most non-citizens did not register
or vote in 2008, but some did. The proportion of noncitizens
who voted was less than fifteen percent, but
significantly greater than zero. Similarly in 2010 we found
that more than three percent of non-citizens reported
voting.

These results speak to both sides of the debate concerning
non-citizen enfranchisement. They support the
claims made by some anti-immigration organizations
that non-citizens participate in U.S. elections. In addition,
the analysis suggests that non-citizens' votes have
changed significant election outcomes including the
assignment of North Carolina's 2008 electoral votes, and
the pivotal Minnesota Senate victory of Democrat Al
Franken in 2008.

However, our results also support the arguments made
by voting and immigrant rights organizations that the
portion of non-citizen immigrants who participate in U.S.
elections is quite small. Indeed, given the extraordinary
efforts made by the Obama and McCain campaigns to
mobilize voters in 2008, the relatively small portion of noncitizens
who voted in 2008 likely exceeded the portion of
non-citizens voting in other recent U.S. elections.

see conclusions.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-cont...hman-et-al.pdf




p.s. - let the games begin...my popcorn is ready.

[ikalugin]

This is very strange to me. If anyone organised elections this way in Russia he would be literally lynched by the US sponsored activists with the silent consent of the state.

Because this appears to be very vulnerable to fraud, to the point where I would suspect deliberate criminal negligence.

Even if there was no fraud this should be changed.

[Skybird]

LINK - The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

so it turns out there has been at least one scientific study on potential voter fraud which concluded it could be as high as 15%.

Jesse Richman, the co-author of that study has this to say:

“Trump and others have been misreading our research and exaggerating our results to make claims we don’t think our research supports,”
[..]
“I’m not sure why they continue to do it, but there’s not much I can do about that aside from set the record straight.”

Source: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/author...eryones-wrong/

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Source: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/author...eryones-wrong/

well from the same article:

What they found suggested that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008, while 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.

Richman himself is not backing down from his initial findings. He says that even if some people did check the wrong citizenship box, enough respondents repeatedly reported voting as non-citizens to indicate that some non-citizens do in fact vote. Even some of Richman’s detractors, such as Rick Hasen, author of the Election Law Blog, acknowledge that “non-citizen voting is a real, if relatively small, problem.” Richman says those on the left are just as wrong to reflexively claim that voter fraud doesn’t exist at all as Trump is to continue insisting voter fraud is a national conspiracy.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Is it correct to assume then that every citizen has both social security number and the birth certificate?

If so, why not attach voting registration to them?

all voting is done locally as well as counted.

for example:

I was born just outside of Boston Which is stated on my birth certificate.
I currently live outside of San Diego.

The only office I can vote for no matter where I live in the U.S is President/Vice President
Any other votes I cast are dependent on where in the country I live.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

LINK - The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned

Typical turnover. Some were on the way out anyway. Others retire. At the end of the day, if you can't take the heat.....

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Jesse Richman, the co-author of that study has this to say:

Source: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/author...eryones-wrong/

Further study that does not require a scientist found that just one person who is not legally allowed to vote but does vote is considered voter fraud.

For me, it is not numbers of people who may or may not have committed voter fraud, it is the fact that their is some fraud.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Skybird

LINK - The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned

5 people out of 13,0000 and at that level they are figureheads, really don't think it will effect a whole lot, other than the tone of business