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Old 06-06-2017, 12:15 PM   #46
PL_Harpoon
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After spending a few more hours in the game I have to say I'm increasingly more impressed and have take back what I've said about the torpedoes.

Firstly, they behave just like they should. I had a similar situation as before but this time I was close enough to see what's happening. This time I fooled the torpedo with a noisemaker and turned the opposite way to run away. After passing through the NM the torpedo entered circular search pattern and didn't found me after first circle, but on the second one it picked me up again.

Secondly there's no bug with torpedoes braking wire where they shouldn't. If you don't do any sharp manoeuvrers you can easily keep the wire intact. Provided it won't break on launch.

Also I found several nice touches to the game. For example, if you fire torpedoes during sharp manoeuvres (especially at sharp angles) it will get stuck inside the tube rendering it useless.

Another thing is that someone here mentioned that you can't break the towed array. Well, considering that signal strength from towed array drops significantly above 10 kts and shows 0 above 15 I like to imagine that the crewman responsible just automatically retrieves it at those speeds. I know it should take much more time than accelerating from 5 to 15 knots but at least it's better than nothing

One more thing to mention is that the game can be really satisfying. It feels really good when you use all your tactical advantages (thermal layers, staying near the surface when the sea is high, or creeping at the bottom if the enemy is shallow, using signal strength comparison to figure out his detection range etc), manage to get into the baffles and shoot the enemy at close range so that he can't do anything to avoid the hit.

Also, the AI seems a bit more competent at Hard difficulty, i.e. they're much more conservative with the usage of active sonar. One time I had a duel with a sub during which through the entire time I had no sonar contact with the enemy. I had to entirely depend on his occasional active pings (they can give you 1-3 pings and then stay silent) and direction of his torpedoes to kill him.

And lastly, you can play entire encounters from the tactical view. Even dodging torpedoes isn't that difficult (statistically I survived more attacks while not relying on a 3d view). I'm beginning to use the 3d view as an eye-candy tool when there's no immediate threat.
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:21 PM   #47
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Great info!

Good to hear as I really like the tactical view. Well I believe my defenses have been sufficiently broken down. Off to Steam I go :/
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:58 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon View Post
After spending a few more hours in the game I have to say I'm increasingly more impressed and have take back what I've said about the torpedoes.

Firstly, they behave just like they should. I had a similar situation as before but this time I was close enough to see what's happening. This time I fooled the torpedo with a noisemaker and turned the opposite way to run away. After passing through the NM the torpedo entered circular search pattern and didn't found me after first circle, but on the second one it picked me up again.

Secondly there's no bug with torpedoes braking wire where they shouldn't. If you don't do any sharp manoeuvrers you can easily keep the wire intact. Provided it won't break on launch.

Also I found several nice touches to the game. For example, if you fire torpedoes during sharp manoeuvres (especially at sharp angles) it will get stuck inside the tube rendering it useless.

Another thing is that someone here mentioned that you can't break the towed array. Well, considering that signal strength from towed array drops significantly above 10 kts and shows 0 above 15 I like to imagine that the crewman responsible just automatically retrieves it at those speeds. I know it should take much more time than accelerating from 5 to 15 knots but at least it's better than nothing

One more thing to mention is that the game can be really satisfying. It feels really good when you use all your tactical advantages (thermal layers, staying near the surface when the sea is high, or creeping at the bottom if the enemy is shallow, using signal strength comparison to figure out his detection range etc), manage to get into the baffles and shoot the enemy at close range so that he can't do anything to avoid the hit.

Also, the AI seems a bit more competent at Hard difficulty, i.e. they're much more conservative with the usage of active sonar. One time I had a duel with a sub during which through the entire time I had no sonar contact with the enemy. I had to entirely depend on his occasional active pings (they can give you 1-3 pings and then stay silent) and direction of his torpedoes to kill him.

And lastly, you can play entire encounters from the tactical view. Even dodging torpedoes isn't that difficult (statistically I survived more attacks while not relying on a 3d view). I'm beginning to use the 3d view as an eye-candy tool when there's no immediate threat.
same here 3d only for eyecandy but actually playing using the tactical view.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:10 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx View Post
One of the reason that i bought it and did not filed for a refund is because i want to support this guys. I mean the game has some flaws and some concept design that does not reflects 100% what i'm looking for but .... sub games itself is a niche product, either arcade or sim, so to attract others devs or even a high profile publisher (talking to you Ubisoft) the only thing that we can do is to show that there is a market here, tiny, but there is. Only by attracting others dev we might aspire to have a real Silent Hunter successor someday.
I think that's a really good attitude to have, sub games are so rare we really should be supportive of developers who work as hard as Killerfish did on Cold Waters.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:34 PM   #50
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I haven't gotten it yet myself, but to address the issues some players are having with maintaining depth control. There haven't been a lot of games that give the player control over the control surfaces of a submarine, even less that accurately portray the physics of sub driving. Pulling from personal experience driving an Ohio Class SSBN(trainer and real) and being in a 688 trainer. When driving, think Newton and his laws of physics. An object in motion remains in motion unless acted on by another force. So if you plane upwards to get to PD, you'll need to arrest that upward force by planing down. The more you use, the sooner you'll have to counter the ships movement as well. The less planes you use initially will mean having to use less planes to counter. Same is also true with the rudder. When turning you'll have to swing the rudder in the opposite direction to stop on the course that you want. I believe that can be seen in SC and DW if you order a course and watch the rudder angle indicator.
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:02 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Foxendown View Post
[*] I really don't like not knowing how much water is under my keel, have I missed something, can't see a keystroke?
You can, t shows in the conditions tab but only when the bottom is lower than 1000ft
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ETR3(SS) View Post
I haven't gotten it yet myself, but to address the issues some players are having with maintaining depth control. There haven't been a lot of games that give the player control over the control surfaces of a submarine, even less that accurately portray the physics of sub driving. Pulling from personal experience driving an Ohio Class SSBN(trainer and real) and being in a 688 trainer. When driving, think Newton and his laws of physics. An object in motion remains in motion unless acted on by another force. So if you plane upwards to get to PD, you'll need to arrest that upward force by planing down. The more you use, the sooner you'll have to counter the ships movement as well. The less planes you use initially will mean having to use less planes to counter. Same is also true with the rudder. When turning you'll have to swing the rudder in the opposite direction to stop on the course that you want. I believe that can be seen in SC and DW if you order a course and watch the rudder angle indicator.
That's actually a good technique in the game. Sure, if you level your planes after a dive you will eventually stop descending but if you instead go full up the boat will level much quicker. It's not fully newtonian physics but it's a good thing as you'd need analogue controls and close attention to every turn.
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:10 PM   #53
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Here is my initial noob impressions after fooling around for an hour. For me, the game hit the sweet spot between realism and complication.

Dangerous Waters is something I hold in very high regard, but it's one of those titles that remain shelved until I retire or something. My history with this sim is that of confusion, being overwhelmed and failing miserably. I am probably too impatient and/or stupid for it at the moment and I don't have enough time to spend learning the more advanced stuff not to end up dead right after someone sneezes on the boat.

So far I used CMANO to scratch my nuclear boat itch, but certain things there are too general and there is zero eye candy for my sub-loving eyes.

Enter Cold Waters, a game that was advertised as easy to control and understand, while still having enough depth to satisfy my humble hunger for authenticity. Plus them eye candies!

So far the vibes are good. The game looks great and does require at least basic knowledge of sub tactics and common sense, so thoughtful play is rewarded. I also like the fact that you are essentially the captain of a boat and not every crew member at once. There is a good reason why certain military machinery requires a crew to operate - one person can only handle as many tasks in a pressure-heavy situation. Doing periscope stuff, drawing things on a map and steering the sub at the same time in something like Silent Hunter was often and exhausting experience to the point of frustration. Cold Waters doesn't do that. The only thing you are required to do manually, is piloting the boat, but it's a lot of fun. Maybe except going to periscope depth, it's easy to surface if you are not careful and that means torpedo hell. While it might be frustrating to some extent, I guess that is something people will need to adapt to, and probably this aspect won't be an issue after some practice. Another minor issue is the fact that towed arrays aren't rendered, but maybe this will get patched in at some point.

The enemy AI seems capable - ships start to zig-zag when you are made, helos dip sonars and launch torpedoes like crazy and those Bears can be pretty relentless. However, running from enemy torpedoes is quite exciting - I went to surface when I though there was noone around to make some screeshots and in less then a minute a Bear started dropping things into the water. Luckily I managed to dive and rush to around 1000 ft doing some crazy turning and non got me. It's cool to see how the torps go into search patterns or miss you by meters and the direct control and 3d view give you the tools to do some aware evasion, even if it's a bit arcade'y. All in all, I had fun and was able to learn the game mechanics while playing without putting too much stress on the brain, while still having the impression that this is not your today's idiot-back-patting underwater shooter, but a product for grown men.

A couple of things that I consider flaws though:
- tutorials are done on an old school way, meaning there is no narration or step by step tutor-guided introduction to various aspects, you need to figure things out on you own and reference the manual (thankfully it's available under SHIFT+F1 and not to long, so you won't find yourself spending hours looking for what you need).
- there is no crew voices, you need to watch those text messages
- the interface also does not feature tooltips and you do need to remember quite a few key commands
- some basic crew management would be nice, but that is just my wishlist stuff.

All in all, if you are totally anal about operating a sonar, plotting a solution, keeping an eye on how much compressed air you have etc and that is you main focus, you probably won't find too much to tackle your fancy. But if you just want a lightweight sim/wargame about subs with enough authenticity to consider it a "serious" game, Cold Waters seems like a great product. I would definitely recommend this as an entry-level game to naval simulations. It's also one of the few games that are placed during the Cold War.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:19 PM   #54
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I want to like it.
But I simply can't at the moment.


While I do not regret to support the title, I am disappointed in the 1.0 result, so far. It feels too arcade for my taste, and is ridden with bugs, while many "features" make you want to rip your hair out.


Some things out of my head:
- Instant-ASW aircraft with pin-point sonobuoy-spam.
- Enemy submarines going active all the time, because it's Tuesday.
- Enemy submarines hitting the ground very(!) often, because Vodka.
- You fired a wire-guided torp eh? Let's cut that wire because 25% yolo!
- I got killed - back to "We have a sonar contact!" screen, "repeating" the same mission(?)
- Loading Special Forces did unload everything else without warning/notice, so I sailed out with just 4 Mk48 in my tubes - come at me bruh!
- Briefing demands to sink special targets - your commander pisses on you for trying to guesstimate what might be your target among all those same ship symbols present (so. not. fun.).
- Apparently, all it takes to fool modern torpedoes is putting your rudder hard to port/starboard. If in doubt -> knuckle. 100% fail safe - except against wire guided torpedoes.
- Russian surface groups don't know EMCON - non-stop pinging. Yay, disco!
(heard this is kinda legit, but I have doubts tbh.)
- Overall gameplay seems "too close" - even at max spawn range, and player is thrown into action too quickly with no time to maneuver whatsoever. This is bad, so very, very bad!
- Campaign map lacks features and action. It is interesting for exactly 11,4 seconds. Then you've seen it all, and Europe being completely covered in snow, in November, gets odd too.
- No crew voices. This is a deal breaker for me. It disconnects you from your sub, steals immersion and authenticity, and most importantly: The feeling of commanding something alive, due to ~130 souls aboard.
I heard the devs want to add them later - but this is a review, not a "let's pretend it will be great at some point"-view.
- Mini-map desperately needs a range-meter, so you can judge distance at all. Right now, contacts on it could be right next to you, or in a different time zone - you wouldn't know besides the range data the contact itself shows, but that's different. Situational awareness is key, and here the game is lacking, I feel.
- All manual controls. While it reigns supreme for evasive maneuvers, it sucks so hard for periscope depth, or simple maneuvers. I am the Captain! All I should need to do is order course and depth, so i can focus on other things. Here I have to constantly watch not going below crush depth, broaching the surface, or turning too far during course adjustments, all while not losing focus for combat. Terrible design decision.

Honestly, gameplay feels like a 20€ game for mobiles or tablets, as - if broken down - it is the same over and over and over, unfortunately.
The "dynamic campaign" doesn't change that, due to the quick-mission like scenarios. This isn't really convincing me at all, and I am sorry to say so.


Now the positive things in a nut shell:
- Optics are fantastic mostly (some FX look horrible, like underwater explosions, others look great, like overall lighting).
- Sounds are splendid. Could hardly be better. Everything sounds as I would expect it, and the sounds are high quality, not some cracking mono-garbage like in the Sonalyst titles (age is no excuse).
- Artwork is beautiful. Period.

Now, the developers seem to have their hearts in the right spot for this title, and I am rather confident that many things mentioned above will be fixed or addressed. On top, it is moddable in some aspects, another big plus.
Yet, the devs need to step up their game (no pun) to really turn this title into a simulation. In all honesty, having nice models and NATO-format briefings with more-or-less accurate sonar modeling really doesn't cut it while AI is failing (see above) or gameplay feels like on methamphetamine in a dark closet.
(And I set speed and range scaling to 1:1, yes.)
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:26 AM   #55
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I'am having so much fun with this game it must be illegal. My review from Steam:

Quote:
So let get this out of the way immediately. This is not Dangerous Waters, Sub Command or Jane’s 688(i) Hunter/Killer. This is not a tech sim in sense that each station is meticulously researched and modelled and your job as the player is NOT about staring at the green sonar waterfall display until your eyes bleed. This is a much lower fidelity sim than the above-mentioned titles, focusing primarily on the command decisions a nuclear submarine captain would face. It is also a loving recreation of sorts of the classic Red Storm Rising, which is certainly no bad thing.

As such, it is doing a marvelous job at keeping me entertained and challenged. The survivability of the boat rests on your shoulders as you advance through the campaign. WWIII has broken out and it is up to you to perform the various tasks command sends down the line to you. Convoys and Soviet subs roam the Atlantic and if you run into them the game takes you into battle mode where you get to test your tactical acumen against a sharp and ruthless AI. The auto-crew will handle sonar duty, TMA and weapons release while you focus on getting the boat into a firing position undetected. It is also up to you to device an evasion plan, because when that torp goes into the water, chances are you will be counter detected and attacked. Ruthlessly.

Cold Waters is in my book much more adept at supplying that suspension of disbelief that the older and higher fidelity submarine simulators often lack in my opinion. They are great at technically reproducing the inner workings of a nuclear submarine, but this a whole different kettle of fish. This is war, and you are in command, and that feeling is very efficiently conveyed thanks to beautiful design, art and graphics. It also forces you to make interesting and risky decisions. Approaching enemy convoys, maneuvering into the baffles of two silent diesel subs, avoiding detection while dropping off a SEAL-team outside Archangelsk, all helps to create heaps of tension and suspense. It is a proper submarine experience in every sense of the word.
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:34 AM   #56
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The enemy subs using active sonar a lot is grounded in history. The USS Lapon trailed a Soviet Yankee class for 47 days, being able to reacquire it several times after losing contact because the Soviet sub would light off its active sonar.

Because most Soviet boats prior to the Victor 3 are so noisy, this significantly degrades the performance of their passive sensors, and as such they rely more on the active. In game, they will do sprint and drift tactics, and alternate between active sonar search and doing passive listening while drifting. This has the added gameplay benefit of their sonar emissions giving you a hint as to their direction, even if you are not in a position to detect them passively.

The surface ships employ the same sprint and drift tactics in the game, but they use active sonar much more liberally since they are essentially blind at higher speeds.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:04 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Nippelspanner View Post
- All manual controls. While it reigns supreme for evasive maneuvers, it sucks so hard for periscope depth, or simple maneuvers. I am the Captain! All I should need to do is order course and depth, so i can focus on other things. Here I have to constantly watch not going below crush depth, broaching the surface, or turning too far during course adjustments, all while not losing focus for combat. Terrible design decision.
This is the major point holding me back from buying it at the moment.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:08 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Janus View Post
This is the major point holding me back from buying it at the moment.
I was sceptical initially, but I think it's quite fun now. I do wish it was an option though, not the only way to control the sub.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:25 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daft View Post
I'am having so much fun with this game it must be illegal. My review from Steam:

Thanks for posting, well written and really exhibits the flavor of this game
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:27 AM   #60
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I was sceptical initially, but I think it's quite fun now. I do wish it was an option though, not the only way to control the sub.
This has been a sticking point for many and we're going to look into it after we get the initial bugs fixed.
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