Wuhan virus 2020

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Just a friendly reminder

WHO has basically confirmed an IFR of 0.14%, approximately the same as the seasonal flu. And here are the latest survival rate estimates from the Center for Disease Control:

Age 0-19 … 99.997%
Age 20-49 … 99.98%
Age 50-69 … 99.5%
Age 70+ … 94.6%

Viral tweet cites made-up CDC ‘COVID-19 survival rates’ to downplay vaccine:
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...urvival-rates/

A tweet said "CDC COVID-19 survival rates" are 99.997% for people ages 0 to 19, 99.98% for people ages 20 to 49, 99.5% for people ages 50 to 69, and 94.6% for people over 70.

The CDC has not released survival rates, and it doesn’t have the data to do so. It’s not clear where the tweet’s numbers came from, but they correspond with figures listed as part of CDC "planning scenarios" used for planning a pandemic response.

We rate this post False.

"gullable morons"

[Rockstar]

Oh god therein lies the problem to lazy to check the actual source and instead runs to another ‘fact check’ from your favorite politifact COVID cult outlet. Who rate it as false? Why?

Try researching the data found on the CDC and NIH website instead. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...scenarios.html. And do keep in mind the date of the article and the updated CDC website.

Btw how’s your science experiment of spitting on mirrors with and without mask on. Are you close to a break through yet? The world is waiting these could be the results everyone is waiting for.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Oh god therein lies the problem to lazy to check the actual source and instead runs to another ‘fact check’ from your favorite politifact COVID cult outlet. Who rate it as false? Why?

Try researching the data found on the CDC and NIH website instead. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...scenarios.html. And do keep in mind the date of the article and the updated CDC website.

Ok, I did. It says this:

The parameters in the Planning Scenarios:

• Are estimates intended to support public health preparedness and planning;
• Are not predictions of the expected effects of COVID-19;
• Do not reflect the impact of any behavioral changes, social distancing, or other interventions; and
• Do not reflect the impact of the emergence of novel SARS-CoV-2 variants.

Btw how’s your science experiment of spitting on mirrors with and without mask on. Are you close to a break through yet? The world is waiting these could be the results everyone is waiting for.

I was hoping you'd do the experiment, as you are making the claim that masks are useless.

[mapuc]

A Surgical mask and the N95 has a 95 % protection against Virus and 80 % against Bacteria.

95% is a good number, as long you don't stay within 1-2 meters from an infected person for more than 15-20 minutes and this person does not cough towards you, then your Surgical or the N95 will protect you, if you haven't been reusing your facemask over and over and over again.

Markus

[Sean C]

I was talking to my mother on the phone today when I mentioned that I had not gotten the vaccine. She immediately asked me why I was against it. "I'm not.", I said, "I just don't think I need it."

But what I want to know is, given that:

1. Vaccinated individuals can still contract Covid*. (But the vaccine will likely reduce the severity of symptoms.)
2. Vaccinated individuals can still spread Covid to others.
3. Given 1 & 2, the only person actually endangered by me not getting the vaccine is ... me.

Then why should it be anyone else's concern whether or not I get the vaccine? The only possible reason I can think of is what the "experts" said early on: that "In all the history of respiratory-borne viruses of any type, asymptomatic transmission has never been the driver of outbreaks. The driver of outbreaks is always a symptomatic person."† So, unless a person is currently showing symptoms of Covid, it is highly unlikely that they will be the cause of an outbreak. Vaccinated or not.

But if you admit that the above statements are true, you have to admit that almost everything else we've been told cannot be entirely true. And you never admit that, because that might undermine confidence ... which it should.

Pretty much everything we've been told from the start of this is contradictory and none of it makes any real sense, if you think about it. I know that we still do not fully understand this disease and it is better to err on the side of caution. But we still don't fully understand the common cold, either. What I have a big problem with is when we start passing laws and issuing mandates about things we aren't even sure of.

And this "pandemic" is certainly not the only example of that.



* If you research this fact, you may still find some seemingly contradictory information. Some sites simply say that the Covid vaccines - and vaccines in general - will prevent you from getting the disease they were developed for. Other sites admit that it is still possible to get the disease, but the chance is reduced. Still other sites recommend not taking any chances and to continue to wear a mask and social distance ... which I do anyway.

† Dr. Anthony Fauci

[Catfish]

^ to put some things right:

Originally Posted by Sean C

[...] I had not gotten the vaccine. She immediately asked me why I was against it. "I'm not.", I said, "I just don't think I need it."

But what I want to know is, given that:

1. Vaccinated individuals can still contract Covid*. (But the vaccine will likely reduce the severity of symptoms.)
2. Vaccinated individuals can still spread Covid to others.
3. Given 1 & 2, the only person actually endangered by me not getting the vaccine is ... me.

1. Right, but after a vaccination your body respectively your immunosystem already has the blueprint information to produce antibodies, so the system will be instantly able to fight the infection. Symptoms will be much less severe.
-> You cannot kill a virus, because it does not live. You can only kill the host, the bacteria in which the virus replicates. So the immunosystem targets infected cells and bacteria and destroys them, keeping the number of viruses low since the latter cannot replicate in masses anymore.
-> What is a virus

2. Yes they can still infect others. BUT they will be less contagious since the virus numbers and the time of being contagious is greatly reduced by the fast immuno answer.
Time of carrying the infection and being infectious, the reduced infection pressure on others by lower virus numbers, it all adds to the vaccine effect.

3. This is why 1 and 2 matter. It is not only you being endangered, but your time of being contagious is extended.
Vaccines don't just protect you, they also help other people stay healthy around you - especially old people, young people and people who can't get vaccinated themselves, like those undergoing chemotherapy. This is called herd immunity, and it effects the health of everybody - not just you.

To get this virus back to such small numbers that it is practically extinct (like we wre able to with the Polio vaccinations), we need at least 80 percent of the population being vaccinated.

If not, the virus will go on replicating en masse in the non-vaccinated, infecting others and worst (leading to the main big problem): be able to mutate and mutate (read adapt) again to find other less protected cells and bacteria to breed in; finally being able to overcome the human immunosystem in a way that it is not longer able to protect.
You are prolonging this mess, you are enabling the virus to adapt in the long run. It is because of this it will still be striving in 2022, and maybe forever.

Pretty much everything we've been told from the start of this is contradictory and none of it makes any real sense
If you research this fact, you may still find some seemingly contradictory information.

Which "fact"? What Fox News or Trump tell you? No way. There are always statistical outliers, vaccines do work.
In the 1960's smallpox was responsible for millions of deaths, but just two decades later it was completely eradicated due to an aggressive vaccine campaign.

I do not understand how people with at least a bit of biological education are drawing false conclusions from obvious evidence.
So no, I do not admit those statements of you are true.

[Sean C]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Which "fact"?

The one with the asterisk after it, which refers to the statement with the asterisk before it. The one you completely agreed to here:

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ to put some things right:
1. Right, but after a vaccination your body respectively your immunosystem already has the blueprint information to produce antibodies, so the system will be instantly able to fight the infection. Symptoms will be much less severe.
-> You cannot kill a virus, because it does not live. You can only kill the host, the bacteria in which the virus replicates. So the immunosystem targets infected cells and bacteria and destroys them, keeping the number of viruses low since the latter cannot replicate in masses anymore.
-> What is a virus

Originally Posted by Catfish

2. Yes they can still infect others. BUT they will be less contagious since the virus numbers and the time of being contagious is greatly reduced by the fast immuno answer.
Time of carrying the infection and being infectious, the reduced infection pressure on others by lower virus numbers, it all adds to the vaccine effect. ...

Okay. And what about those people who have contracted Covid, recovered, and developed a natural immunity?

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Sean C

I was talking to my mother on the phone today when I mentioned that I had not gotten the vaccine. She immediately asked me why I was against it. "I'm not.", I said, "I just don't think I need it."

But what I want to know is, given that:

1. Vaccinated individuals can still contract Covid*. (But the vaccine will likely reduce the severity of symptoms.)
2. Vaccinated individuals can still spread Covid to others.
3. Given 1 & 2, the only person actually endangered by me not getting the vaccine is ... me.

Then why should it be anyone else's concern whether or not I get the vaccine? The only possible reason I can think of is what the "experts" said early on: that "In all the history of respiratory-borne viruses of any type, asymptomatic transmission has never been the driver of outbreaks. The driver of outbreaks is always a symptomatic person."† So, unless a person is currently showing symptoms of Covid, it is highly unlikely that they will be the cause of an outbreak. Vaccinated or not.

But if you admit that the above statements are true, you have to admit that almost everything else we've been told cannot be entirely true. And you never admit that, because that might undermine confidence ... which it should.

Pretty much everything we've been told from the start of this is contradictory and none of it makes any real sense, if you think about it. I know that we still do not fully understand this disease and it is better to err on the side of caution. But we still don't fully understand the common cold, either. What I have a big problem with is when we start passing laws and issuing mandates about things we aren't even sure of.

And this "pandemic" is certainly not the only example of that.



* If you research this fact, you may still find some seemingly contradictory information. Some sites simply say that the Covid vaccines - and vaccines in general - will prevent you from getting the disease they were developed for. Other sites admit that it is still possible to get the disease, but the chance is reduced. Still other sites recommend not taking any chances and to continue to wear a mask and social distance ... which I do anyway.

† Dr. Anthony Fauci

I'll just leave you with my own experience. I'm currently 8 days post start of covid symptoms.

My wife and I were vaccinated (Pfizer). Our 15 year old son and 12 year old daughter were not. They're both athletes in great physical shape. My wife and I are older and in not as good a shape with high blood pressure controlled by medication. My son got a double ear infection (testing negative for covid) that was getting better once he was prescribed the right antibiotic and he resumed going to football practice. Then he started feeling worse. Back to the doctor and another covid test - this time is positive. Into isolation he goes while we waited for those results - that was 2 Thursdays ago. Since my wife and I are vaccinated, we don't have to quarantine - just wear a mask indoors and look for symptoms. Friday evening before last, my wife gets home from work and says she thinks she's getting a migraine from the stress of first day back in the classroom. Saturday morning she and my daughter both wake up with with cold symptoms and go to the urgent care to get tested. Sunday morning before last, I wake up with same symptoms and go off and get tested. By the time I got home from the doctors office, I had already lost my sense of taste and smell. We all tested positive. The kids - it was like a cold.

Me and my wife? Symptoms were slightly different - I was mostly clogged sinuses, low grade fever, and cough due to post nasal drip. She had higher fever and worse cough. Then, in around day 3 of symptoms is when we both got shortness of breath, dizziness and fatigue. No issues taking deep breaths, but obviously the O2 saturation is not where it should be - it was around 95% instead of my normal 98%. I had that for 3 days. My wife and daughter got tested in Saturday and had results on Monday - and my wife got Monoclonal Antibodies on Tuesday. My results came on Tuesday but I had to wait to get the Monoclonal Antibodies because the schedule was full. I got them last Friday and the next day I felt much better without the shortness of breath. At this point, I have a lingering cough and my taste and smell haven't yet returned.

Bottom line - getting covid sucks. If we had not been vaccinated, we'd probably have been in the hospital. If you're even slightly overweight, or have high blood pressure or diabetes, or any other type of circulatory or respiratory issue, you don't want to get it. If I had not gotten the shortness of breath, I would not have even thought twice since it was otherwise like any other cold I've ever gotten. But that shortness of breath came on suddenly and it just went in waves of it followed by feeling no shortness of breath. I actually had less shortness of breath by moving around rather than sitting down.

Absolutely, vaccination should be your choice, but don't fool yourself that you're in tip-top health if you aren't. You don't have to be 400 lbs - literally carrying an extra 15-20 pounds could be the difference in symptoms. Likewise, if you are taking medicine for high blood pressure to keep it in the normal range - you still have high blood pressure.

"Mild" symptoms can mean anything from a headache or the sniffles to full-blown AIDS levels of feeling awful - just short of needing to be hospitalized. It all depends on your individual physiology.

Your chances of getting COVID aren't all that great in most situations. But when you bring it home, you're likely going to get it. 6 days from first person showing symptoms to last person showing symptoms. And we were isolating "patient zero" from his start of symptoms while waiting for his test results. He's already back in school after clearing his 10 days (it's day 13 for him due to the weekend). Lucky for him, he only had a fever for a day, otherwise he would have had to get an EKG due to concerns over myocarditis before being allowed back to sports.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Sean C

[...] Okay. And what about those people who have contracted Covid, recovered, and developed a natural immunity?

I read natural immunity is not quite as good as with those vaccinated, which especially applies to the new line of mutations wave 3 and 4. You have to understand to fight this infection 'naturally' from zero their body had to do more, energy and wearout-wise. In comparison the vaccine is only a light touch that makes your system alert.
And however, you acquire this "natural" immunity by actually getting the real disease/getting the impact without a prepared system.

If i were to compare this to Polio or Smallpox or other virus diseases that have been made extinct by herd immunisation and a strict vaccine policy in the past, would it be better to get Polio than it would be to get vaccinated for polio – because you think after getting polio you will be better protected (which is doubtful) from polio in the future (in case of survival of course)?
In case of this virus it is of course more obvious, if your kid is to spend the rest of his life maimed in a wheelchair because the nervous system was destroyed by this poly-myelitis virus, your kid may not be so thankful.

I take it the vaccinated gets the same immunity, only that his immunosystem achieved this with a lot less wear and tear and a probably shortened life. If you survive it naturally even with mild symptoms, there are scars.


OT: It is not only the virus. The virus of course destroys the cells it replicates in, in the end. The cell is being ripped apart by the masses of viruses released in the virulent stage. And all those virusses are infesting new cells exponentially; so an infection getting out of hand and spreading to e.g. heart/liver/lung cell tissue can kill you. This virus is by no way limited to lung tissue, you can get it anywhere in your body, and it may spread anywhere.

Another problem is your immunosystem itself. Imagine you get covid, and it does hit a bit more heavily: your immunosystem may well be up to fight it by destroying the cells the viruses breed in, ok.

But this system may also over-react, and it can get as far as it destroys a bit too much of your cells just because it "thinks" it has to. In this case you own overreacting immunosystem may kill you. Which is what mine is currently trying to do to me, though not covid-related here.

Anyone with a computer and access to the internet can inform himself on reputable sites and honest searching, so .. just do yourself a favour.


OOT still have a lot of questions to ask you about navigation, so it is of course totally egoistic of me to wish you all the best, whatever your decision may be

[Arlo]

[Arlo]

COVID-19 vaccines are still highly effective at protecting people from getting really sick or dying. But breakthrough infections can happen, especially with the delta variant. And it's becoming increasingly clear that unvaccinated people can develop long COVID symptoms, even from mild cases.

Like millions of others, Kathleen Hipps thought she was safe from COVID-19 after she got two shots of the Moderna vaccine last spring. So she figured she just had a summer cold when she got the sniffles in July. But then she opened some Vick's VapoRub.

"Anyone who's ever smelled Vick's VapoRub knows how pungent of a smell it is. And I couldn't smell it. And that's how I knew I had COVID," says Hipps, 40, a Los Angeles lawyer who has two young sons.

And sure enough, Hipps tested positive. "I got very sick. I was very tired, very congested — could barely get out of bed. I couldn't work at all. I had to find colleagues to cover my work for me. And I just spent the next week basically in bed, completely isolated from my family," she says.

Hipps never ran a fever, though, and did not have bad head or body aches. She started feeling better after about a week, tested negative and went back to working from home and caring for her family. She thought she was fully recovered.

"And I was in my mom's new car and all of a sudden I felt burning. And I thought there was something wrong with her car," she says.

Wherever she moved her foot, she could still feel the burning sensation. And then her other foot started burning too. It felt like she was walking on hot coals, she says.

I've learned that this is neuropathy, and this a common symptom of long COVID," Hipps says.

Long COVID is a poorly defined, poorly understood condition that occurs when COVID-19 patients' symptoms won't go away for weeks or months, or new ones emerge just when they think they're all better.

More than six weeks after it started, Hipps still experiences the burning sensation every day, as well as tingling and numbness in her hands.

Sometimes the numbness is so bad she can't push her baby's stroller. Her periods are really heavy. And work tires her out so fast now that she has to take lots of breaks.

"I'm really scared. I mean I'm really scared that there are things that are going on with me that I'm going to have to deal with for the rest of my life," Hipps says.

Now it's really important to stress that the COVID-19 vaccines are still highly effective at protecting people from getting really sick or dying, and are still quite good at keeping most people from even catching the virus or getting mildly ill.

But breakthrough infections can happen, especially with the delta variant. And it's becoming increasingly clear that unvaccinated people can develop long COVID symptoms, even from mild cases.

"We've seen that with the infection itself in the unvaccinated individuals about 30% of those individuals continue to have these long-haul COVID symptoms," says Dr. Avindra Nath, who is studying long COVID at the National Institutes of Health.

So the concern is whether vaccinated people who get infected may be at risk for long COVID too, Nath says.

"I think that's a good question," he says.

A small Israeli study recently provided the first evidence that breakthrough infections could lead to long COVID symptoms, although the numbers are small. Out of about 1,500 vaccinated health care workers, 39 got infected, and seven reported symptoms that lasted more than six weeks.

And a large British study subsequently found about 5% of people who got infected — even though they were fully vaccinated — experienced persistent symptoms, although the study also found that the odds of having symptoms for 28 days or more were halved by having two vaccine doses.

"I think it's a reasonable concern. But it's too early. I think we need to follow these patients. It's quite recent that they've been recognized. So at the moment we don't have that answer," Nath says, adding that if there is a risk, he suspects it's probably very low.

Some infectious disease experts remain highly skeptical that long COVID from breakthrough infections is a big problem.

"Pathophysiologically, it's quite unlikely to get long COVID from a breakthrough infection," says Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease researcher at the University of California, San Francisco.

That's because the immune response generated by the vaccine would prevent the virus from taking hold in the body or triggering a harmful overreaction by the immune system, Gandhi says.

"I think it is absolutely not impossible, but pathophysiologically it is less likely," she says.

Other researchers are convinced the problem is real.

"Categorically I can say that we have already been seeing a handful of cases of long COVID from breakthrough infection," says David Putrino, who studies long COVID at Mount Sinai.

"We need to behave as though there is the same chance as always of developing long COVID from a mild-to-asymptomatic infection because once you have it you can't unring that bell and you're looking at months to years of illness," Putrino says. Putrino is working with Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University, to try to understand how breakthrough infections can lead to persistent symptoms.

Iwasaki says some people may experience long COVID because the virus is still hiding in the body. In others, it may be that their immune systems overreact to the virus — a so-called autoimmune response.

"We know that the vaccine induces a robust immune response to quickly clear the virus during breakthrough infections," Iwasaki says. "And that suggests to me that autoimmunity may be the culprit there."

Even if breakthrough infections can lead to long COVID, others say there are also plenty of other reasons vaccinated people should continue to keep being careful to avoid catching the virus.

"At the end of the day, my biggest concern honestly is not that I'm going to get long COVID," says Dr. Carlos del Rio, an infectious disease researcher at Emory University. "It's that I'm going to bring COVID and give it to someone else. I mean, I have a young granddaughter. If I get infected, I could give it to her. I'm more concerned that people who are vaccinated can get infected and transmit to others."

For her part, Hipps hopes her symptoms don't plague her for months or even years.

"It's scary because there's obviously a lot of things we don't know about this virus and I'm scared about these long-term implications on my body."

Still, she is glad she got the vaccine. She knows it probably kept her out of the hospital and kept her alive.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ixVZfCCgiTMpKY

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

The UK’s four Chief Medical Officers have recommended all children aged 12-15 should be vaccinated against Covid.

They have agreed that children of those ages should be given one dose of the Pfizer vaccine to help prevent education being disrupted.

A final decision on rollout will be taken by ministers in the four nations of the UK

The UK recorded 30,825 new coronavirus cases on Monday, and 61 deaths within 28 days of a positive test.

Boris Johnson confirms he'll announce his Covid winter strategy on Tuesday, saying he'll be "setting it all out tomorrow"

The PM says he's "very confident in the steps that we've taken" but won't rule out a winter lockdown.

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer says nobody wants another lockdown and the best way to avoid it is to be cautious and use practical measures.

And Sir Keir says he will back vaccinations for 12 to 15-year-olds if the scientific advice is that it's safe.

French vaccine maker Valneva says the UK government has scrapped a deal for its Covid vaccine.

[Jimbuna]

[Sean C]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

Bottom line - getting covid sucks.

Originally Posted by Catfish

I read natural immunity is not quite as good as with those vaccinated, which especially applies to the new line of mutations wave 3 and 4. You have to understand to fight this infection 'naturally' from zero their body had to do more, energy and wearout-wise. In comparison the vaccine is only a light touch that makes your system alert.
And however, you acquire this "natural" immunity by actually getting the real disease/getting the impact without a prepared system.

Around late February of 2020, I became ill. I mean really, really ill. Fever, chills, cold sweats, body aches ... you name it. I don't often get ill, but this was as bad if not worse than I've ever been. I could not eat or drink more than a few sips every hour or so. It lasted for about three days, during which I laid on the couch. I told my wife that if I didn't start feeling better, I was going to the emergency room. Of course, this was right before Covid made headlines, so I had no idea what might be going on.

Anyway, I got better and I haven't had a problem since (other than coughing up a very small amount of phlegm now and then - but I'm also a smoker). I was classed as an "essential worker", so I worked as usual through this whole thing. I supervised about 100 people, many of whom contracted Covid. And I was in contact with hundreds of other people every day. I think I mentioned before that one former co-worker and dear friend of mine died. But I have not been ill since February, 2020.

I have no known health conditions right now (except migraines, which I've always had). I take no prescribed medications. I am still not sure if what I had back then was Covid. But I'd be honestly surprised if I did not have the antibodies in my system. From what I've read about both the vaccine and the "boosters", I don't see them as being either superior or inferior to natural immunity.

The main point of what I wrote was that I don't have a problem with this or any other vaccine. I think it makes sense for some people to get it. What I do have a problem with is legislation based on incomplete information.

Originally Posted by Catfish

OOT still have a lot of questions to ask you about navigation, so it is of course totally egoistic of me to wish you all the best, whatever your decision may be

Thank you! You, as well. And please do ask. Believe it or not, almost no one does.