8k/16k Visibility question

[John Pancoast]

What part of the sensor.dat and/or AI_sensors.dat file would need to be changed to reduce a set of 16k sensors to 8k range for my crew and AI visibility ranges ?

There are several visibility sections in each, so I'm assuming those ?

[CaptBones]

But first, are you sure you want to do that?

Consider this...the distance to the horizon (at sea) for an observer with height of eye around 4.5m or 15' above the surface (about right for a lookout on a Type VII U-Boat bridge) is 4.5nm or 8.34km. But remember, the bridge/funnel(s)/masts of most surface ships are much higher than that and therefore they are clearly visible beyond the horizon, when the visibility is good, to the U-Boat lookouts. Sighting a ship at 16km is not unreasonable or even particularly difficult under ordinary conditions.

The converse is also true, good lookouts on the bridge, or above it, of a surface ship should be able to see a surfaced U-Boat that is beyond their actual horizon...not as easily, but they could still see it.

The really significant variables (other than the skills and experience of the lookouts) are lighting conditions, weather conditions and sea state, as well as the aspect of the "target", or angle on the bow. So, what I did to modify the "sensor" performance was to adjust the "Cfg\Sim.cfg" and "Cfg\Sensors.cfg" file values, especially for "Enemy surface factor". It took a bit of experimentation, since I haven't found any specific guidance or detailed information on exactly how each of the values in those files affect their respective sensor's performance.

First, I modified the "Sensors.cfg" detection parameters for my crew. Then I set up modified AI "Sim.cfg" sensor detection parameter values and placed them in the SH3CDR "Date" folders to represent improvements in Allied ASW performance as the war progresses.

It seems to work well; at least I'm satisfied with the results. But, it's your game and your preferences for "fixing" or tweaking it are up to you. Good luck and good hunting however you choose to proceed.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by CaptBones

But first, are you sure you want to do that?

Consider this...the distance to the horizon (at sea) for an observer with height of eye around 4.5m or 15' above the surface (about right for a lookout on a Type VII U-Boat bridge) is 4.5nm or 8.34km. But remember, the bridge/funnel(s)/masts of most surface ships are much higher than that and therefore they are clearly visible beyond the horizon, when the visibility is good, to the U-Boat lookouts. Sighting a ship at 16km is not unreasonable or even particularly difficult under ordinary conditions.

The converse is also true, good lookouts on the bridge, or above it, of a surface ship should be able to see a surfaced U-Boat that is beyond their actual horizon...not as easily, but they could still see it.

The really significant variables (other than the skills and experience of the lookouts) are lighting conditions, weather conditions and sea state, as well as the aspect of the "target", or angle on the bow. So, what I did to modify the "sensor" performance was to adjust the "Cfg\Sim.cfg" and "Cfg\Sensors.cfg" file values, especially for "Enemy surface factor". It took a bit of experimentation, since I haven't found any specific guidance or detailed information on exactly how each of the values in those files affect their respective sensor's performance.

First, I modified the "Sensors.cfg" detection parameters for my crew. Then I set up modified AI "Sim.cfg" sensor detection parameter values and placed them in the SH3CDR "Date" folders to represent improvements in Allied ASW performance as the war progresses.

It seems to work well; at least I'm satisfied with the results. But, it's your game and your preferences for "fixing" or tweaking it are up to you. Good luck and good hunting however you choose to proceed.

Yes, I'm aware of the pluses of a 16k visibility and prefer it overall myself.

But I also enjoy 8k campaigns via a heavily modified Rub 1.45 base. NYGM (based on 1.45) is by far my favorite megamod, so all I'm doing is trying to adapt it's 16k sensor files for 8k.
More or less, my 8k campaigns are with an 8k version of NYGM.

But both my crew and AI visibility won't work in an 8k as is with just a straight sensor file swap; they're both still using their 16k attributes.

What numbers did you come up with for those files you mention ?

[CaptBones]

Here is what I'm using now...this is for GWX3.0 with SH3CDR. Note that I haven't made changes (IIRC) to any of my crew's performance factors other than visual yet; still experimenting with the others and am back to early war years in the current career anyway. First , here are the "Cfg\Sensor.cfg" file settings:

[SensorParameters]
; Sensors Detection Parameters
;Visual.
Visual range factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Visual fog factor=1.05 ;[>=0]
Visual light factor=0.8 ;[>=0]
Visual waves factor=0.8 ;[>=0]
Visual speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual aspect=0.9 ;[>=0]
Visual enemy speed=0.2 ;[>=0]
Visual noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual sensor height factor=0.4 ;[>=0]
Visual already tracking modifier=600 ;[detection probability modifier], most accurate, once a contact is detected it will lose it very hard
Visual decay time=200 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Visual uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

;Radar.
Radar range factor=1 ;[>=0]
Radar fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar light factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar waves factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar aspect=1 ;[>=0]
Radar enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
Radar noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar already tracking modifier=10 ;[detection probability modifier]
Radar decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Radar uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

;Hydrophone
Hydrophone range factor=1 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone light factor=0 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone waves factor=0.2 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone speed factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone aspect=0 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone noise factor=0.4 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
Hydrophone already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Hydrophone decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Hydrophone uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

;Sonar active.
Sonar range factor=1 ;[>=0]
Sonar fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar light factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar waves factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar aspect=1 ;[>=0]
Sonar enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Sonar decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Sonar uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

;Radar Warning
Radar Warning range factor=1 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning light factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning waves factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning aspect=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radar Warning already tracking modifier=2 ;[detection probability modifier]
Radar Warning decay time=30 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Radar Warning uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

;Radio DF
Radio DF range factor=1 ;[>=0]
Radio DF fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF light factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF waves factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF enemy aspect=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
Radio DF already tracking modifier=2 ;[detection probability modifier]
Radio DF decay time=30 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Radio DF uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

...and here are the settings in "data\Cfg\sim.cfg" files, using SH3 CDR "Date" Folders.

19390901
[Visual]
Detection time=10 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Light factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=400 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]
[Radar]
Detection time=15 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]
[Hydrophone]
Detection time=15 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
[Sonar]
Detection time=20 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]
_______________________________________________
19410601
[Visual]
Detection time=10 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=1.25 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.0 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=350 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]
[Radar]
Detection time=10 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.9 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]
[Hydrophone]
Detection time=10 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.04 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.75 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
[Sonar]
Detection time=10 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=150 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]
_______________________________________________
19430501
[Visual]
Detection time=5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=1.25 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.0 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=300 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]
[Radar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.9 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]
[Hydrophone]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.04 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.75 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
[Sonar]
Detection time=10 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.6 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=100 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
I don't recall where I got the information below...but I found it helpful also.

"Explanation with Disclaimer:

The following is a terse version of how to adjust the AI. That is to say, this is how I think it works. So here's the cliffnotes spiel in no particular order:
---------------------------------------------------
Adjusing the AI as a whole I feel is comprised of the following:
- crew rating in campaign files: defines minimum sensor signal strength the AI will respond to, and accuracy.
- AI_sensor.dat: defines the geometry of active/passive sonar.
- Sim.cfg: the real guts of it, defines the parameters to illicit a response from the AI.
- depthcharges.sim/zon: becomes important when a response from the AI has been successfully made.
---------------------------------------------------
AI_sensor.dat
- It's believed when sensitivity is set 0, the game uses the sensitivity rating defined in the sim.cfg. Else, it uses the value in the AI_sensor.dat
- It is NOT neccessary to establsh a min range on active sonar due to the downward geometry of the beam. If you go deep enough, you'll get under the sonar.
- Max Elevation defines the doward angle of the beam, hence dictates how easy, or hard it is, to get under that sonar type's active beam.
---------------------------------------------------
SIM.CFG (stock examples being shown)
Quote:
[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.2
Waves attenuation=0.75
Defines the height and trough of waves. Greatly effects visual sensors, and has many adverse side effects. USE GREAT CAUTION when playing with this variable. Frankly, I don't recommend touching it.
Quote:
[AI detection]
Lost contact time=15
Defines how long the AI will actively look for you after losing contact on you. Also dictates response from nearby AI units. When player is detected, the detecting AI broadcasts its discovery to all nearby units. If you're within 15 mins reach, they will come to look. At 16 mins, if another detection of the player is not made by then, the AI will go back to what it was doing.
Quote:
[Visual]
Detection time=0.5
Sensitivity=0.01
Fog factor=1.0
Light factor=1.0
Waves factor=1.0
Enemy surface factor=400
Enemy speed factor=15

Think of the AI as a traffic cop. To get a ticket, you must be in violation of certain rules. Likewise, for visual detection to occur, you must be in violation of certain parameters:
- speed factor in this case means that you must be doing 15 kts or more for the AI to notice you.
- Surface factor means how much surface area of your sub you must be presenting to the AI in order for him to notice you.
- I've long suspected that for visual detection to occur, you must be breaking both of the above listed paremeters to get a response, but I've not conclusively proved that. It's either A, or B, or All of the above, I'm not 100% positve.
- detection time. You must be exceeding the surface and speed factors for this amount of time to illicit a response.
- Fog/light/wave factors. Think of them as environmental dampeners, or how much the environment handicaps the AI. Smaller the number the less the handicap, the larger the number, the more the handicap.
Quote:
[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1
Sensitivity=0.03
Height factor=0
Waves factor=0.5
Speed factor=15
Noise factor=1.0
Player noise is dictated by motor RPM. The more RPM, the more noise you're making, whether in Silent running or not. Silent running behaves boolean; it's either on or off.
-detection time, how long you can make a lot of racket before the AI takes notice.
-speed factor in this case dictates how fast the AI can go, and still be able to use this sensor. At 16kts, he can no longer hear anything.
- noise factor seems to dictate how much of your motor noise the AI can hear at a given range. Arbitrary numbers, 0.25 is quite sensitive, 1.0 is quite deaf.
- waves factor is your standard environmental handicap; 0.5 being quite the handicap, 0.95 being barely a handicap at all.
Quote:
[Sonar]
Detection time=20
Sensitivity=0.03
Waves factor=0.5
Speed factor=20
Enemy surface factor=200
Lose time=30
For player detection to occur (IE, to get the AI to ping), you must
A.) present him a favorable surface factor as defined by said variable
b.) be within his sonar cone as defined by the AI_sensor.dat
c.) be doing all of the above for the length of time specified by the detection time.
Stock detection time being 20, a lot of ground can be covered in that time by yourself, or the AI. Hence, the AI is often not able to keep you within his sonar cone while you are presenting a favorable surface factor during that time. Which is why you don't hear it ping a whole lot.
Depthcharges:sim/zon
SIM:
- fall speed; self explantiory
- depth precision; sets area at which DC will randomly explode when set at a given depth by the AI. For example, with a depth precision of 20, if the AI sets the DC to explode at 160feet, then the DC could randomly explode anywhere between 140 feet and 180 feet. Default game setting is a depth percision of FIVE.
- explosion range, defines how much of the depth charge's shock wave you can feel. Does no damage. By raising this value, the closer the DC is, the more your boat will shake when it explodes DO not go overboard with this, as said shockwave can (if you set it high enough) acutally propel the boat in the water at high speeds. Rather humorous, but highly unrealistic.
ZON:
Min/Max EF
-defines min and max damage range.
- Min radius. Defines the area at which the depth charge will do full damage. Default i beleive is 4.5, meaning if the depth charge explodes within 4.5 meters of your sub, it does full damage.
- Max radius, defines outward radius that damage is applied by diminishing returns. Meaning if you have a depth charge at 4.5 min radius and at 40 max radius, this means that anywhere within 4.5 meters the depth charge does its full damage. From 4.5 meters outward to 4.0 damage is still applied, but less damage is applied to the player sub at 39 meters than at 5 meters. The farther away you are from the center of the explosion, the less damage it does; 4.5/40 is the game default.
Misc remarks on the AI in general:
- Does not ping without reason. (IE, be in sonar cone, presenting favorable profile to said sonar cone, and be doing both for X amount of time)
- AI has two states, Normal and Alert. You see it all the time. When alerted the threshold values are heightened in order to more easily illicit a response from the AI.
- The AI can only use active or passive at a singluar moment in time, it cannot do both. You see this all the time whenever you raise your periscope. When you do, you're using your visual sensor, and your hydrophone contacts are temporarily lost until you stop using your visual sensor (periscope). AI works the same way; either or, it cannot do both at once."

[John Pancoast]

Thanks very much ! Yes, I've seen that AI info. before too. Thanks for posting it; I couldn't find my bookmark for it.

Are using Hsie's patch/night vision fix ? I notice your Visual Fog Factor is much higher than his recommendation.

[John Pancoast]

Forgot to mention; in my modified 8k campaign, I have doubled the number of merchants/escort numbers in each convoy too.


More realistic convoy sizes, don't know if I could run it on a 16k environment.


Pretty cool to see/attack though.

[CaptBones]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Thanks very much ! Yes, I've seen that AI info. before too. Thanks for posting it; I couldn't find my bookmark for it.

Are using Hsie's patch/night vision fix ? I notice your Visual Fog Factor is much higher than his recommendation.

Yes, I am using Hsie's patch with night vision fix. His corrections deal with the player's Bridge Watch crew's ability to see in the dark...I've left his Visual range factor "as is" at 0.5 and applied his Visual fog factor at the higher recommended value of 1.05. That seems to be working well; also suits my old Win 7 desktop and monitor that I put back to gaming after trying Win10 and getting completely frustrated with Microsoft's BS.

Regarding the higher values for the AI Visual fog and light factors...I can't remember and I'm not sure why I have the higher-than-Stock values in 1941 and 1943. I might have still been experimenting with comparisons of results from changes to those and the Surface, Speed and Detection Time factors and just didn't finish experimenting before I decided to quit tweaking for awhile and get back to playing. I'm back at the start in 1939 right now and if I survive through '41 and '42 into '43, I might have to take another look at where I was going, and how far, with those changes.

Sounds like a very interesting change for convoy size that you're doing. I suspect you're right about using that in a 16k environment; would probably overwhelm anything less than a present day top-of-the line GPU/CPU combination and maybe even too much moving/dynamic stuff to be rendered even for them. Probably an interesting sight in 8k...an ocean full of ships everywhere you look.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by CaptBones

Yes, I am using Hsie's patch with night vision fix. His corrections deal with the player's Bridge Watch crew's ability to see in the dark...I've left his Visual range factor "as is" at 0.5 and applied his Visual fog factor at the higher recommended value of 1.05. That seems to be working well; also suits my old Win 7 desktop and monitor that I put back to gaming after trying Win10 and getting completely frustrated with Microsoft's BS.

Regarding the higher values for the AI Visual fog and light factors...I can't remember and I'm not sure why I have the higher-than-Stock values in 1941 and 1943. I might have still been experimenting with comparisons of results from changes to those and the Surface, Speed and Detection Time factors and just didn't finish experimenting before I decided to quit tweaking for awhile and get back to playing. I'm back at the start in 1939 right now and if I survive through '41 and '42 into '43, I might have to take another look at where I was going, and how far, with those changes.

Sounds like a very interesting change for convoy size that you're doing. I suspect you're right about using that in a 16k environment; would probably overwhelm anything less than a present day top-of-the line GPU/CPU combination and maybe even too much moving/dynamic stuff to be rendered even for them. Probably an interesting sight in 8k...an ocean full of ships everywhere you look.

Yes, of course, many are blocked out of view after 8k. But a lot of the convoys in the megamods are setup in long narrow rectangles instead of historical square shapes.
Got the bigger convoy idea from blackswan's GWX work.

I also have campaign.rnd files setup with the same number of ships, but more columns per convoy, again to make it more square shaped.

[AutoSetup]

Regarding visual/radar detection.


Does hull down on the surface, have a reduced detection effect, as in real life?


..

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by AutoSetup

Regarding visual/radar detection.


Does hull down on the surface, have a reduced detection effect, as in real life?


..

I have seen threads on both sides; some say yes, some say no. The detection routine has so many other variables anyway, not sure it even matters myself.

Though I still do it.

[CaptBones]

I use it ("decks awash"..."hull down", whatever) if for no other reason than "realism" in the way that I operate my boat. I certainly agree that it's not easy, maybe impossible, to determine if it actually does make a difference.

One could surmise that it does reduce the surface area of your boat that is "visible" to the enemy. To what extent that works is probably debatable, and if it does work it is likely very much affected by the wave action. I have to believe, or at east suspect, that the amount of "visible" surface area of your boat is only that which is above the surface of the water. How fast the game engine can calculate that is a question, in particular when the "surface" of the water is itself a dynamic, ever-changing variable. Could be an interesting discussion topic...and a never ending one...I suppose.

But then, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[AutoSetup]

I will continue doing it, on the assumption, that if I think it's making a difference, then it is making a diffencence.


..

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by AutoSetup

I will continue doing it, on the assumption, that if I think it's making a difference, then it is making a diffencence.


..

Pretty much how I approach it too.

[AutoSetup]

This part, from Captbones post, is interesting.


"Surface factor means how much surface area of your sub you must be presenting to the AI in order for him to notice you".


It might only concern the aspect, but it's on the right lines.


Periscope height, is another one. Is it purely up or down? I always keep it as low as possible. I will continue to do it, even if it makes no difference.
..

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by AutoSetup

This part, from Captbones post, is interesting.


"Surface factor means how much surface area of your sub you must be presenting to the AI in order for him to notice you".


It might only concern the aspect, but it's on the right lines.


Periscope height, is another one. Is it purely up or down? I always keep it as low as possible. I will continue to do it, even if it makes no difference.
..

Scope height/time above water does matter in the game. Unlike the decks awash question, that one is definite.

You can look in your sensors.cfg and sim.cfg files for some of the visibility references, though I wouldn't mess with them myself.