SUBSIM Radio Room Forums


SUBSIM: The Web's #1 BBS for all submarine and naval simulations since 1997

Go Back   SUBSIM Radio Room Forums > General > General Topics > PC Hardware/Software forum
Forget password? Reset here

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-02-2019, 05:47 PM   #16
Catfish
Dipped Squirrel Operative
 
Catfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky
Posts: 9,769
Downloads: 38
Uploads: 0


Default

I'm quite realistic, what Russia does is strangling the once free Internet for ist own people. The justification to be "independent if brownouts or whatever" is a farce, and every russian knows it.
I am not wasting time "discussing" with Putin's speaking tube.
__________________


>^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.
Catfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 03:26 PM   #17
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 30,454
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

All top-DNS level functions are de facto under US control, and certain key servers, master servers or as some call it: the mount Olymp of the internet worldwide, are located in the US as well. NSA, DARPA, the govrnrment and its in parts secret legislation regarding the internet, obviously have no interest in handing this control over to others, to "the world". Clinton said he wanted to share control over it by I think 2000 (or he said thjat in 2000, I am not certain), but that did not happen until today.


For Russia, for China, and less obvious: for the EU, also Asia and all the rest of the globe, this total US control is a potential big scale issue. Its as if the world were a dark cave that now is flooded with light so that all can see: and all six existing light switches being in hands of the Americans, and they do not share it and defend contorl over them with all their fangs and claws.



Most cloud servers (most of them running under Linux, btw) also stand in the US, and thus fall under Us legislation. If the Us law authorizes US offices to scan and spy on cloud-stored data, every US company must comply, unconditionally. Other countries' for exampel data protection laws play no role here. Thats why I say its dangeorus to use cloud services for anything that goes beyond electronic holiday postcards and harmless chatter.



I already said that indeed Russia's steps now can be used to switch off the internet's information and data communciaiton, it already seems to have been done during riots in and near Mscow repeatedly. So it is beign done in China. Still, even if both countries would be perfect liberal democracies, the American dominance in contorlling the web is a big problem for everybody except the US. Lats but not least, mind you: the uS can do like Russia and China as well. Just that the US can literally shut down all the global WWW, like it can switch of the GPS system as well regionally or globally. Except were Russian and Chinese navigation systems can jump in - or their natiopnal intranmets, so to speak, can replace global WWW functionality.


So,, although it can be abused and certainly has been and will be abused, China and Russia nevertheless have legitimate interests to cope with the American options which to their own nations simply are a danger, a threat, and make them vulnerable to US blackmailing or cyber attacks. The Europeans should learn this lesson as well. Fast. Little Cesar at the latest marks the end of the old post-WW2 order of the West. The US is a rival now, no longer an ally. The "West" of the past seven decades - no longer exists.



Taking turns in owning the keys to the Olympic servers, also is no solution, because then Olympic control over the WWW would end in the hands of right these regimes, and worse actors in the third world. And then these players would refuse to hand control over again at the end of their term. Lets face it, the Americans would act stupid if they voluntarily hand over this ace card of theirs. What stupoid would do that...?



There is no solution to this mess, it is a natural conflict and a dilemma. The Europeans should adapt to the facts that define the situation: and come to terms with erecting their own internet infrastructure for servers and cloud computing - and keep the Americans locked out (which they would not like and would start to play dirty over, no doubt, its a topic of utmost geostrategic interest and economic core interests: its maximum essential). Still the Europeans should accept this conflict, and go for this. China already does. And now Russia does. Just Europe still sits in the starting block, and talks, and talks, and talks. And already is trailing behind by twenty years or so. Say goodby to international ambitions to be seen as one of the big players, Europe: just endless moral lecturing does not lead you anywhere. Who wants to be seen as a strong player at the table for the grand jeu, needs to be strong all by himself. And cyberspace, cloud computing, and the web, are three of the most important aspects of the grand jeu.



But the Europeans play CO2 Gambit in a bit to checkmate themselves...!
__________________
Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it.– Hannah Arendt
Skybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 07:53 PM   #18
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,166
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

By riots do you mean protests?
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 06:26 AM   #19
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 30,454
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Sometimes a clear discrimination between both is not possible.And media pictures are not to be trusted anymore.
__________________
Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it.– Hannah Arendt
Skybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 02:32 PM   #20
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,166
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
Sometimes a clear discrimination between both is not possible.And media pictures are not to be trusted anymore.
I happen to live in central Moscow
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 10:54 AM   #21
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 30,454
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Ah. That explains the riots.
__________________
Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it.– Hannah Arendt
Skybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2019, 04:47 PM   #22
Reece
CINC Pacific Fleet
 
Reece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Down Under
Posts: 25,422
Downloads: 171
Uploads: 0
Default

__________________

Sub captains go down with their ship!
Reece is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2019, 05:42 PM   #23
mapuc
Navy Seal
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark
Posts: 8,591
Downloads: 32
Uploads: 0


Default

So what is the purpose behind this ?

Is it what many say or fear what it really is - Controlling their citizens

or

is it as the authorities say prevent Internet from breaking down in case it is been shut down by USA/other countries.

Markus
mapuc is online   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 07:34 AM   #24
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,166
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Both, the former is a logical next step over existant regulation, because what was required by it from the regulator (RKN) could not be done without the new tools (DPI etc).


As many other countries we have "save the children" laws which enforce censorship, for example of cartoon pornography depicting minors. Previously websites that were detected to have such banned content would be just added to the IP blacklist, but in a number cases this did not work (ie with telegram).
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 03:58 PM   #25
Onkel Neal
Born to Run Silent
 
Onkel Neal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1997
Location: Cougar Trap, Texas
Posts: 18,929
Downloads: 421
Uploads: 207


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird View Post


There is no solution to this mess,
Not true. There are solutions, although they may be fantasy. Chinese and Russian people stop tolerating dictators, and the US people elect a normal human being as President again.
__________________
The first truly good subsim was Aces of the Deep. Then there was Silent Hunter III. Now Subsim presents: Wolfpack.
Good hunting and don't forget to close the hatch!

Onkel Neal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 07:06 PM   #26
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 30,454
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkel Neal View Post
Not true. There are solutions, although they may be fantasy. Chinese and Russian people stop tolerating dictators, and the US people elect a normal human being as President again.
Fantasies are no solutions, faery tales are no theories, and hopes are no strategy.

People are different, cultural tradition and education come in and have their influence as well, and I dare say that even genetics make us different a bit, although some will want to crucify me for that.

We are not all the same, even if I violate Western Zeitgeist when saying that.
__________________
Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it.– Hannah Arendt
Skybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 03:47 AM   #27
Catfish
Dipped Squirrel Operative
 
Catfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky
Posts: 9,769
Downloads: 38
Uploads: 0


Default

Last year in Moscow, people released paper planes—the Telegram messenger icon—to protest a court decision to block Telegram because it violates Russian regulations, on April 30.

"The government has been blocking small [internet] resources since 2014," he adds. If RKN succeeds with this block, "worse [ones] will come."

https://www.newsweek.com/2018/05/11/...eb-909458.html



Seems that soon there will be no difference between the totalitarian UK and Russia anymore
__________________


>^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.
Catfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 03:16 PM   #28
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,166
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Telegram still works in Russia. There were some disruptions to it's operations during the RKN's attempts to enact the court decision (which lead to a lot of collateral damage), but they powered through those.
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 04:16 PM   #29
Catfish
Dipped Squirrel Operative
 
Catfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky
Posts: 9,769
Downloads: 38
Uploads: 0


Default

^ Seems so, yes. This is not to the Kremlin's credit though. There is no doubt that Putin still tries to isolate Russia from public access to international information sources, and encrypted messaging - which of course makes perfect sense. To him, or any totalitarian regime.
I know he only does it to "protect", of course. Ahem.
Despite all this turbulence and inefficient politics in the "west", certain regimes still seem to have a veritable fear of free thinking and public exchange. And the thing is once this free thinking has been set free, it is hard to incarcerate again.

https://meduza.io/en/cards/russia-is...-s-failing-why

I admit I do not quite understand Putin. Bedeveling the enemy is one thing, but ridiculing him makes people careless. Assumed that Putin regards the West as the enemy and describing it as weak, decadent and corrupt, this strategy sucks in the long run.
The only friend helping him is the West itself (see Skybird ). But the constant discussing and even setbacks is the real advantage it has vs. totalitarian regimes like China, or Russia.

Maybe Putin is ahead of all this thinking and really tries to improve a civilian society in Russia, but what we have seen until now is not effective. A 'multipolar world', yes it still is and becoming more so. Unfortunately. This cannot be the way to the future though. Just of all RT b.t.w. denies a multipolar world.
If everyone who had a halfway decent education could choose, where would you say would such a person prefer to live? In China? Russia?
__________________


>^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.
Catfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 06:00 PM   #30
ikalugin
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 3,166
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

Note how Signal and Whats-up were not targeted. So it was never about cutting access to western information sources, which is why respectable mainstream media (BBC, CNN etc) and even US state sponsored propaganda (RFE, VOA etc) are still available.

In case of Telegram it was about gaining access to the messages, the current Russian survailance law demands such access if the warrant for the specific individual has been issued (compare and contrast with western style mass survailance which often uses illegal backdoors).


So no, it is/was not about Russia/Putin being evil, which is probably why you do not understand our/his behaviour.
__________________
Grumpy as always.
ikalugin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995- 2020 Subsim