Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Tchocky]

Nice to see the public discourse on this issue remains blitheringly idiotic and mind-numbingly depressing

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/8/9480797...gunman-popeyes

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

There are over 20,000 gun control laws on the books already in this country so please don't imply that nothing has been tried. Especially when what the controllers want to try is universal background checks which would have done nothing to prevent any of the recent mass murderers and they refuse to even consider getting rid of the so called "gun free zones" that these nuts seem to prefer so much as their killing grounds.

Maybe we also get rid of our right to privacy and the requirement for the cops to obtain a search warrant as well? After all if the cops were to search the homes and bedrooms of everyone in the country they just might find evidence of someone planning one of these crimes. To you that'd be worth ditching our constitution for right?

At not one point have I advocated the banning of firearms, ok? Heck, you can even get rid of gun free zones. The thing is, you say that there are 20,000 gun control laws on the books in the country, and yet if you do not have a criminal record, are aged 18 or above, you can go into a firearm store and apply for a firearm. In some states you have to watch a video and answer a test. Obviously it varies from state to state, like nearly all laws in the US, and if you go to a gun show or a private seller then you don't have to pass a background check.
Now how difficult would it be to make it universal that to buy a weapon from any place you have to have a firearms license, like a driving license, and to gain that firearms license you have to show to a registered official that you are capable of owning and operating a firearm safely. Once you have that license then you get your firearm and if you happen to violate the terms of that license then you get it taken away. Whether you get your firearm taken away as well can be debated but without a license you wouldn't be permitted to have it anyway, so it would probably be better that it was taken away.
Now what is so wrong with that? We already require such things for driving a car, driving a truck or bus or flying an aircraft...so why not for owning a gun?

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Ya its kinda like weapons technologies, car safety, food recalls, vaccines, childrens toys, etc etc. Unfortunetaly with gun control their is no science behind it which says implementing it will make anyone safer. Doing so will not in anyway make the crimminally insane sane. If they are motivated they will no doubt just seek an alternative method to carry out their intentions.

Perhaps they will, you don't really know until you try. Perhaps it will work? After all, driving licenses were introduced in America after soaring fatalities in the newly introduced automobile provoked public outcry, and they have stayed since. Road vehicle fatality rates still remain high but this is a proportional increase as opposed to the high initial rate. In other words, more people drive cars therefore the likelihood of an accident increases.
Sure, it's not going to stop mass killings, it's not going to stop gang banger shootings...but it might reduce them, and surely that is worth a go?

Because haters are gonna hate maybe we can start doing psych evals on the world population and put down the the trouble makers, humanly of course. Now THAT would make the world a much safer place, wouldn't it? Think of the children!

Now you're just being silly.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Now how difficult would it be to make it universal that to buy a weapon from any place you have to have a firearms license, like a driving license, and to gain that firearms license you have to show to a registered official that you are capable of owning and operating a firearm safely.

Actually, you don't have to have a drivers license to buy a car. You must have a drivers license to drive a car on a public road, which means getting it home might be a problem, but you don't have to have that license to buy or own the car. Of course the whole purpose of owning a car is to drive it on public roads, but that's another matter.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Sure, it's not going to stop mass killings, it's not going to stop gang banger shootings...but it might reduce them, and surely that is worth a go?

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

HEY! "GANG LIVES MATTER" HOMEY!

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually, you don't have to have a drivers license to buy a car. You must have a drivers license to drive a car on a public road, which means getting it home might be a problem, but you don't have to have that license to buy or own the car. Of course the whole purpose of owning a car is to drive it on public roads, but that's another matter.

Exactly, and if one violates the law it doesn't (usually) result in the vehicle being seized either.

[em2nought]

Yes, if we only better trained the wackos so they could handle firearms in a more precise manner.

What we need is a draft with reduced military pay. If the military lets you carry a gun and you don't leave with PTSD then you become a full citizen of this country, you get to vote, you can carry firearms.

If you object to being drafted you need not apply, you just don't get full citizenship, or the right to vote, or get to own firearms, and you get taxed at the highest bracket.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually, you don't have to have a drivers license to buy a car. You must have a drivers license to drive a car on a public road, which means getting it home might be a problem, but you don't have to have that license to buy or own the car. Of course the whole purpose of owning a car is to drive it on public roads, but that's another matter.

Fair point, fair point, but the principle still applies.

I mean, I can understand in a limited way the fear that a respectable, responsible gun owner would feel that his hobby and his defence is under threat, and I don't think that disarming American citizens is even a feasible prospect. In short, it just isn't going to happen, and once you accept that then you can think, well how can you make this thing safer? How can you make the irresponsible gun owners either more responsible or unable to put others lives at risk. This isn't about punishing responsible gun owners, but making sure that all gun owners are as responsible as the more responsible gun owner.
I think that if you do that, and take a good long look at how the mental healthcare system in America is running and how it can be improved and if necessary expanded, then I think that this will have a positive impact on America without causing any real harm to responsible gun owners.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Sure, it's not going to stop mass killings, it's not going to stop gang banger shootings...but it might reduce them, and surely that is worth a go?

Depends. Licensing free speech might easily reduce the amount of suicides related to bullying or maybe it would reduce the number of youngsters being recruited by Daesh. Is worth a go as well?

Of course if it doesn't work forget getting that freedom back because once it's gone it's gone for good.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by em2nought

What we need is a draft with reduced military pay. If the military lets you carry a gun and you don't leave with PTSD then you become a full citizen of this country, you get to vote, you can carry firearms.

If you object to being drafted you need not apply, you just don't get full citizenship, or the right to vote, or get to own firearms, and you get taxed at the highest bracket.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

Exactly, and if one violates the law it doesn't (usually) result in the vehicle being seized either.

Again, a fair point, as I said it's something that would have to be looked at. Sometimes though the vehicle does get seized, if it's been involved in a criminal act, for example. But surely, if a man or a woman is irresponsible with a firearm after being educated and stating and showing to a trained professional that they can be responsible, then that person is a danger to themselves and the people around them?

[Rockstar]

In 2010, the rate of firearm homicide for blacks was 14.6 per 100,000, compared to 1.9 for whites, 2.7 for American Indians and Alaska Natives, and 1.0 for Asians and Pacific Islanders (figure 5). From 1993 to 2010, the rate of firearm homicides for blacks declined by 51%, down from 30.1 per 100,000 blacks, compared to a 48% decline for whites and a 43% decline for American Indians and Alaska Natives. Asian and Pacific Islanders declined 79% over the same period, from 4.6 to 1.0 per 100,000. Although blacks experienced a decline similar to whites and American Indians and Alaska Natives, the rate of firearm homicide for blacks was 5 to 6 times higher than every other racial group in 2010. As with other demographic groups, the majority of the decline occurred in the first part of the period and slowed from 2001 to 2010.

We must be doing something right. As was mentioned before homicide rates are dropping. But hysteria rates, well, those are dramatically on the rise.

Weird how one day we can all stand and cheer those who butcher each other in the name of freedom and democracy. But then get our panties in a wad argueing over this.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

Depends. Licensing free speech might easily reduce the amount of suicides related to bullying or maybe it would reduce the number of youngsters being recruited by Daesh. Is worth a go as well?

Of course if it doesn't work forget getting that freedom back because once it's gone it's gone for good.

And how would you license free speech?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

We must be doing something right. As was mentioned before homicide rates are dropping. But hysteria rates, well, those are dramatically on the rise.

Weird how one day we can all stand and cheer those who butcher each other in the name of freedom and democracy. But then get our panties in a wad argueing over this.

Aye, well like I said, if terrorists from a foreign country killed as many Americans as other Americans with guns do per year then you can bet that someone would have been invaded by now.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MaDef

I think you and others like you are operating under the fallacy that the U.S is just like the one depicted in the old Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns. not to mention you are getting the "facts" from people and organizations that have agendas.

take a look at the numbers for 2013 without any commentary.

U.S population
316,000,000

total deaths (disease, accidents, murder, & old age, etc)
2,596,993

Total gun deaths
34,048

gun deaths from murder
12,253

gun deaths from accidents, suicides, and justifiable killings
21,795

1.3% of all deaths that year can be attributed to firearms.

that's not an epidemic, thats a statistic. When that number hits 5%, then you start looking at solutions to deal with the issue. If that number hits 10%, you then implement those aggreed upon solutions.

Some more statistics, a bit dated, around 10 years old, German Wikipedia, basing on Small Arms Survey 2004:

Number of killing incidents per 100,000 population:
USA 3.45 - Canada 0.55 - GER - 0.19

Number of legal firearms owned per killing incident with a firearm:
GER 194K - CAN 48K - USA 28K

Number of legally owned firearms (in brackets: total population in 2014)
USA 281 bn (318 bn)- CAN - 7.9 bn (35 bn) - GER 5.5 bn (80 bn)

Factors for the above ("how many people own one firearm")
USA 1.1 - CAN 4.4 - GER 14.6

Number of homicides with firearms, per 100K firearms
USA 4.2 - CAN 2.2 - GER 0.6

Granted, there are places with much higher numbers of horror. All of them belong to third world countries, failed states, Russia and Latin America. Does one really want to excuse one's own falure by comparing oneself to third world standards?

Originally Posted by Skybird

Shootings like this happen in other countries, too.
But in no way one could compare the frequencies of occurrences.

Of course I had the civilized, the first world on mind when writing that.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Aye, well like I said, if terrorists from a foreign country killed as many Americans as other Americans with guns do per year then you can bet that someone would have been invaded by now.

Nobody but us has a right to shoot ourselves in the the foot, nobody!

Hey Im all for using technolgy to track background checks, requiring a firearms course and issuing an ID of sorts to the potential buyer. Im also for sellers to have immediate access to verify such an ID and the latest updates. Unfortunetaly some around here either see that as the devils work or the slippery slope to tyranny.

We already have a lot of laws on the books and requirements for background checks in place and in some states required firearms training. But theres more to this problem than filing the proper paper work and safety training.

No offense intended here but take a look at the stats and one people group/race shines above the rest when it comes to the use of firearms and homicide. Id bet the common factor there is poverty, welfare, lack of family, drugs, gangs, segregation the list goes on. Fix that and numbers would drop like a rock.