Turkey picks Greek bones

Turkey taking close look at subs rejected by Greece
GeoStrategies Direct | 4/16/2010 | GeoStrategies Direct

Turkey was examining the prospect of acquiring naval submarines rejected by neighboring Greece. Turkish sources said Ankara could acquire up to six Type 214 submarines from Germany. They said the Turkish Navy could receive the underwater vessels for one-third less than their original price.

"This has become a major issue in Turkish relations with Germany," a source said.

In 2009, Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, citing a 524 million euro debt by Athens, canceled a multi-billion-euro submarine project with the Hellenic Navy. The navy had refused to pay for the first Type 214 submarine, complaining that the platform was defective.

The cancellation endangered the future of Hellenic Shipyards, owned by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, and contracted to assemble four of the submarines. In March 2010, the Greek government agreed to acquire four of the submarines in an attempt to rescue Hellenic Shipyards. Athens has already sought to unload the first submarine, named Papanikolis, for about 350 million euro.

Under the deal, Hellenic Shipyards would build two of the submarines for the Greek navy under Project Archimedes. The sources said this would facilitate the sale of the shipyards to the Mar Group of the United Arab Emirates.

The sources said German Chancellor Angela Merkel has urged Turkey to consider purchasing the Type 214 submarines meant for Athens. They said Ms. Merkel briefed Prime Minister Recep Erdogan and other officials on the submarine during her visit to Ankara in late March.

Turkish analyst Suleyman Yasar warned that the Type 214 vessels were not suitable for the Turkish Navy. Yasar, in a report in the Turkish daily Tafar on April 6, asserted that the Type 214 was noisy and likely to tip over...

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...Type 214 was noisy and likely to tip over.



Germans don't know how to build boats.

[msxyz]

Just a pathetic attempt by Turkey to lower the selling price or to strong-arm Germany into supporting Turkey appeal to enter the EU...

...which the majority of EU citizens and states don't want.

The EU already expanded to include too many countries which shouldn't have been admitted in the first place (ie Greece) because of poor states of their finances or because they simply don't grant the necessary social stabilities.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Wxman

...Type 214 was ... likely to tip over.

That's called diving at an angle, submarines are built to do that nowadays...

[msxyz]

I honestly find strange all this bad reputation of the U214 type

I mean, a SNAFU could always happen in a design or project but HDW has always been renown for its business integrity.

For example, with the first 209/1500 for India a new welding process was used. Later in the trials, it was discovered that this technique was not up to standards and might have lead to cracks or defects. HDW then decided to scrap and rebuild sections of the ship at its own expense.

If anything, I would have though that the most critical part of the submarine would have been the fuel cells, not the general design layout, which has been proven before with the similar type 212A (Germany and Italy have built 3 submarines of this design each). Not to mention that South Korea, the biggest type 214 customer so far, has not found any major problem with the three already operational boats

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

That's called diving at an angle, submarines are built to do that nowadays...

Are they build to "roll" 45 degrees at periscope depth at not so heavy sea condition? Not a "typical" German sub... (in my book anyway...).

Anyway exceptions, in a sense, verify the rule. There wouldn't be so much fuss over it if the sub wasn't german.....




.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by msxyz

.
...
The EU already expanded to include too many countries which shouldn't have been admitted in the first place (ie Greece) because of poor states of their finances or because they simply don't grant the necessary social stabilities.

And where do you draw the line sir?
Should Portugal, Ireland had been excluded? Maybe Italy, too? Mmmm the UK seems to have fiscal problems too ehhh?. Either we like it or not, EU is a political union and that is the reason that countries with weak economies were included. Granded the economic situation is bad but I don't see anybody in the USA talking about expelling California from the Union because it has gone almost bankrupt!

[msxyz]

The problem is twofold

It's a problem for the Greek people because they're forced into keeping pace with much stronger economies even if, at the moment, they don't have the means. It should have been better if Greek economy progressed at its own slower pace until it was strong enough.

And it's a problem for the wealthy countries because the problem of Greece becomes the problem of the Union. Every nation (even Germany and France) felt the 2009 crisis. Having in tow several countries won't help them recover as fast as they could in the past.

UK is out of the monetary system and this was a wise decision on their part.

One of the hidden risks of adopting an unified currency is that the single nations loose the ability value/devalue their currency to meet the short term crises. As in Greece case, it means they may face a drought of cash with no other means that cut salaries (which in turns cut national spending creating a domino effect).

As it is now, the EU is a mess; countries forcefully kept together by blind bureaucrats even if they have a different histories, cultures and strengths/weaknesses.

The biggest mistake was trying to convert the ECU/CEE from a common regulated market into some sort of 'United States of Europe'.

Apologies if you felt insulted as a Greek Citizen. I'm not against the people from individual countries but against the blind governments ruling us.

[Diopos]

<Apologies if you felt insulted as a Greek Citizen>

None taken... From you at least! But I'll admit I'm fed up with greek bashing anyway. Actually many more people knew what was going on than those claiming that were "fooled" by the Greeks. And I'm not talking about people in Greece ...
1st) "EU" does not equal "Eurozone"
2nd) EU is a political union (of some kind anyway). The fact that the UK and other "players" insist that it is only a market is due to their own policies and agenda. An example: 98% of greek environmental laws are based on EU directives. No sir, it is more than a market and (of course) less than a state ...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Diopos

Are they build to "roll" 45 degrees at periscope depth at not so heavy sea condition? Not a "typical" German sub... (in my book anyway...).

...Ok that could be bad...

"Rig ship for heavy rolls!"
"Captain we are in port!"

Anyway exceptions, in a sense, verify the rule. There wouldn't be so much fuss over it if the sub wasn't german.....
.

Naw, (Post War) German subs have had just as many problems as the subs of most other countries.

List of German sub failures:

Type 201 U Boat- Non-Magnetic Steel hull has cracks and fissues. Boats were a total failure, 9 of 12 canceled the rest rebuilt to Type 205 standards but still only served 5 years.

Type 205: The Danish Sub Narhvalen built with faulty radio causing the Danish Navy and NATO to believe she has sunk. SALEN sinks under tow 12/4/91- 2 years to fix.

Type 206: U-15 runs aground and has to be pulled back to the surface.

ARA San Luis (Type 209) and the SST-4 Torpedo: She fired around four SST-4 torpedoes which all missed because a crewman plugged the DC power cord in backwards. I guess German torpedoes are not Idiot Proof.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

...
I guess German torpedoes are not Idiot Proof.

They are. But you must alvays follow ze manual. Jaaa!

And please don't hurt my sub designing stereotypes!


.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Diopos

They are. But you must alvays follow ze manual. Jaaa!

To quote U-571:

"Everything is in German!"

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

To quote U-571:

"Everything is in German!"

Well it's all greek to me !

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Diopos

Well it's all greek to me !

Touche'

Another German Failure to the list:

Type 202 class U Boat: These things were in service for about a year and a half. I can't even find pictures of these!

[Diopos]

[QUOTE=TLAM Strike;1364914]Touche'

Another German Failure to the list:

Type 202 class U Boat: These things were in service for about a year and a half. I can't even find pictures of these![/QUOTE


Never heard of that one! Googled it. It was a minisub. Ve Germans are not interested in ze small things. We leave them for ze Italians and FIAT!