Who / What / Where Game

[skidman]

I have to agree here.

OK, I know that artifacts made of metal can be analyzed for the origin of the ore they were made of. And I've just read that Cornwall in the bronze age was famous for its tin reserves and superior bronze quality. So, was this cup made in Cornwall?

[Catfish]

^ Most probably not.

But things get difficult here. Bronze is made of copper and tin, and tin was scarce at times. This was usually due to climate changes, trade changes or due to toppling cultures the tin was derived from before.
Some say that some tin used at this time there, came as from far away as Cornwall - maybe.
But if this cup contains tin from the british isles/Cornwall it was definitely not made there. And not made in Germany, but this was already clear..

[skidman]

I see. One early center of bronze production and maybe the first "industrial size" smelting site was located in Cyprus. Is the cup of Cyprian origin?

[Aktungbby]

buried in Palatinate or Bavaria?

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

buried in Palatinate or Bavaria?

No.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by skidman

I see. One early center of bronze production and maybe the first "industrial size" smelting site was located in Cyprus. Is the cup of Cyprian origin?

This is not certain, but it is close enough.

This cup is said to be of minoan or mycenian origin, if the latter is true it can well have been produced in Cyprus. Or in what is Greece today, or in Crete. They also had large metal-melting ovens there, at Knossos.
They estimate the age of the cup of being around 1800 years before christ, and it was buried with the killed settlers around 1800 to 1700 before Christ in a large stone burial site at Dohnsen near Celle, Germany.

There are several theories of how this cup ended up in Germany, but it can well be that minoan traders sailed to Britain and the North sea/Germany to exchange goods and resources, or along those trade routes over the Alps. So the tin of this cup can be from Britain, transported to the "helladic/greek region, used with copper to form an alloy called "bronze", and then transported back over the Alps, or by boat.
The finding of especially seals hint to a ship or overland trading excusion, since seals never were traded and transported by other than their bearers.

"This "Henkeltasse" (Handle cup) is from the middle helladic period (appx. 1800-1700 before Christ) and is a minoan-mycenean product. It has been found in Germany near Drohnsen near the city of Celle, in a layer that has been also estimated to appx. 1700 b.c..
It is a good example of the export enterprises and cultural contacts between the Aegean area and Northern Europe during the bronze age. Some real Bronze age globalism."

The bronze and stone age time tables are not "unified" over the ancient world, the mesopotamian and Levante/greek/egyptian people entered the bronze age earlier than say Britain, or what is now Northern Germany.
This explains how a "modern" bronze cup could be buried in an "older" stone age tomb.
Some peoples near the mediterranean momentarily fell back to the stone age when tin became rare and the knowledge of forming bronze was lost. Some people of the time were attacked by others, or they did not respect treaties anymore, so one of the trading posts in the transport chain was interrupted, with terrible consequences. E.g. Crete was trying hard to search for other regions to get tin when the trade routes from Thrakia or Mesopotamia collapsed. This time around 1800-1700 b.c. was also a time of a harsh climate change.

In his book "The voyage of the Argonauts" author Peter Duerr claims he has found minoan pottery, seals and a typical stone anchor of mediterranean origin near the sunken city of Rungholt in the North sea wadden. He also explains how and why such a route could have been led over sea, not necessarily via the Biscaya, but sailing up the river Rhône, and then pulling the ships overland for a short way, as traces of such action have been found along said river.

This may be of interest https://www.academia.edu/17283618/Vo...?auto=download

Over to Skidman


edit P.S. And sorry for the fuss, i will try to use a more unambiguous riddle if i ever win again here

[Aktungbby]

what is your source for the cup photo?

[Catfish]

^ Made the photo myself, the object was part of a loan collection from the lower saxony archeology museum for an exhibition about ancient minoan ships, their sailing and building and general minoan "sea culture" in Hannover's Kestner museum, the exhibition was also shown elsewhere over time.

Here is the whole photo i made, just made it a bit brighter and cut it, for the forum.



Some more photos from the exhibition. Had some discussions about the alleged sailing capabilities, this is why i asked you ages ago whether you saw something special on the ships of the Thera plaster 'frieze', what you called the "wine-dark sea" theme.
The back of some of the ships (last picture further down here, the bigger ship with the cow/bull hide 'castle' down here) show an attached elongation that was interpreted here as a ramming device, which is imho wrong. If you ever were on a sailing ship you will know what i mean .











A fascinating culture, thoguh by far not the first to roam in the mediterranean sea, and elsewhere.

[skidman]

The transition from late Stone Age to early Copper and Bronze Age is a truly enthralling period in history. And it makes you wonder, if Europe and the Middle East back then can not only be seen as a single economic area, but as a region where a second cultural revolution, comparable to the neolithic revolution, has taken place.

And thanks for reminding us that this kind of cultural evolution is not a one way street and achievements can easily be lost.

Ah, trading without deals and tariffs. Fishing without quotas. Labour mobility, settling and ploughing where you wanted to cause land was plenty. And nobody would blame the Germans for anything, cause Germany didn't exist.

Easy Sunday riddle: What and where is this?

[Jimbuna]

In Europe?

[skidman]

No.

[u crank]

Was this part of a structure built for a special event such as the Olympics or World's Fair?

[Jimbuna]

A diving platform?

[skidman]

Not built for a special event and no diving platform.

[u crank]

A commercial building?