The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I agree I dont think for an instant that all 1.7 billion muslims are radical extemists but then there are soldiers who fight and civilians who read about it in every war. And dont forget this is also a religion, what is being carried out by the soldiers can according to their own teachings be pointing towards a minor end time prophecy. This I think will only lead to more jumping on the bandwagon of extremism and the silent approval by others.

Yes. For the x-thousandth time: its about the ideology, and how it motivates mankind. The biggest part of mankind is driven by ideology of various kind.

Not all Germans strangle even a single Jew, but holocaust was commited - in Germany. Not all Germans knew it or would have willed it, but it happened nevertheless. In Germany. Many Germans were well-educated, but still Nazism was present in Germany. Some Germans took great risks to help fleeing Jews, but in germany, the Nazis still ruled. After the war, many Germans did not believe about the KZs, but the KZ'S existed: in Germany and German-occupied territories. Not in some place but in Germany. Many people meant it well when starting to believe for Nazi ideology, but in its name came war and terror, from Germany. Some German until today deny the responsibility of Nazism and deny that Germany did somethignm bad- but iut was coming from Germany, and already was an finsihed ideology 20 years before Hitler even came to power.

Most Germans probbaly never were convinced Nazis. But Nazism was a reality in Germany, and dominated the place. Even thouigh most Germans probbaly did not actively willed it, followed it, engaged in it.

Does the claim that WWII and Nazism are no problems just related to Germany, make any sense? Hardly.

Okay, not all was Germany. Austria also had some hand in it.

Summary of it all, for the x-thousand-and-oneth time: its about the ideology, and how motivation comes from ideology.

[Tchocky]

Considering the gunman swore allegiance to mutually opposing extremist groups (some of whom are actually at war with each other) - I don't think it's all about ideology.

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Considering the gunman swore allegiance to mutually opposing extremist groups (some of whom are actually at war with each other) - I don't think it's all about ideology.

Considering how some of the newborn fanatics who wanted to leave England for Syria, to fight for ISIS with the
Q'uran For Dummies and Islam For Dummies in their bags, I'm inclined to think it's all about idiocy.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I agree I dont think for an instant that all 1.7 billion muslims are radical extemists but then there are soldiers who fight and civilians who read about it in every war. But dont forget too this is a religion, what is being carried out by the soldiers can according to their own teachings be construed as pointing towards a minor end time prophecy. This I think will only lead to more jumping on the bandwagon of extremism and as well as the silent approval by others.

Oh, End Time Prophecies are a big thing in the world, you've only got to look at the whole Third Temple thing, and how many people in the western world think that it's their duty to begin the end times so that the final battle against the forces of Lucifer can take place and paradise return to Earth, or variations on that theme. Judgement Day and all that but with less Ahnold.
It's big stuff, heck, some pretty powerful people in the US believe in it, so it makes you wonder about some of the US's more questionable decisions.

Either which way, I'd like to believe that the average Islamic believer just wants to get through the day like the rest of us.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.

No, they don't. But the ideology they claim to follow would be happy about it. Do I have to dig out the Nazi comparison again? Not every member of the NSDAP was evil or wanted to kill someone but the party they were members of did. Who denies that Nazism was/is evil? But when it comes to Islam which in my belief has very similar goals and mindsets everybody is getting defensive. When I say Islam is evil I'm not talking about each and every individual who calls himself a Muslim but about the ideology they follow and that ideology of hate, violence, suppression and intolerance mustn't be given influence here in the West just as much as we need to keep Nazism down for we know what happens when we don't.

[August]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Considering the gunman swore allegiance to mutually opposing extremist groups (some of whom are actually at war with each other) - I don't think it's all about ideology.

Assuming that they fit our preconceived notions of ideology. He and they might not have felt that it was a conflict of interest at all to support more than one Jihadi group.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

No, they don't. But the ideology they claim to follow would be happy about it. Do I have to dig out the Nazi comparison again? Not every member of the NSDAP was evil or wanted to kill someone but the party they were members of did. Who denies that Nazism was/is evil? But when it comes to Islam which in my belief has very similar goals and mindsets everybody is getting defensive. When I say Islam is evil I'm not talking about each and every individual who calls himself a Muslim but about the ideology they follow and that ideology of hate, violence, suppression and intolerance mustn't be given influence here in the West just as much as we need to keep Nazism down for we know what happens when we don't.

That's fair enough, but how do you deal with it without focusing and persecuting all of the followers of it? When we went to war with Nazism, we bombed the source of it, and killed thousands of Germans whether they were Nazis or not. How do you fight the ideology of Islam without going to war with 1.7 billion people?

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Oberon

How do you fight the ideology of Islam without going to war with 1.7 billion people?

That's the million dollar question. However I don't see the need to go to a hot war with them (yet). All I want is to keep the influence of Islam away from me and my country or at the very least at a minimum, just as much as I want all totalitarian dogmatic ideologies to stay away from me.
I don't have a magical solution that would be fair for everybody. But in my opinion we have the choice of doing something about Islam or be "fair" and becoming it's victim more and more often. And that's not just terror but all the problems that badly integrated parallel societies bring.

[Betonov]

Of course islam is evil, it's a religion.

It's the mentality that it has a monopoly on being evil that I can't stand.
And that my local burek baker is going to behead me one day when I pick up lunch just because he's a muslim.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

@Oberon, I won't stick my spoon into this soup other than throwing in some spices.

There are followers and then there are "followers". Former which I would call "true followers" actually practice their religion and follow its teachings. Latter ones are more like "habitual followers" who do as they please and observe what they please.

I personally fit into latter category. I'm officially member of Evangelical Lutheran church but in reality I'm agnostic at best. I don't pray or read the Bible. I visit church occasionally for habitual reasons but hardly ever pay much attention to priest's sermon.

Most people I know represent some flavour of habitual spirituality and I dare to suppose that many Muslims aren't any different.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

That's the million dollar question. However I don't see the need to go to a hot war with them (yet). All I want is to keep the influence of Islam away from me and my country or at the very least at a minimum, just as much as I want all totalitarian dogmatic ideologies to stay away from me.
I don't have a magical solution that would be fair for everybody. But in my opinion we have the choice of doing something about Islam or be "fair" and becoming it's victim more and more often. And that's not just terror but all the problems that badly integrated parallel societies bring.

I would say that I understand but I cannot fully understand, perhaps this is why I think the way I do, or perhaps it's just because of my working class socialist leanings. I think ultimately the problem lies in trying not to offend everyone and at the same time letting bad practices slip past.
In my eyes, the law should be applied equally to all, regardless of religion, sex or age (with perhaps the exception of the very very young, but irregardless there should still be some sort of punishment as a deterrance).
Whether this person is a white neo-nazi or a muslim kid from Uzbekistan, if they break the law they should face the statutory punishment as decided by the state. Deportation is also an option if the person involved constantly refuses to obey the law of the nation they are seeking access into.
If a Muslim wants to build a Mosque in the city, fear enough, so long as it doesn't violate building codes or cause a public nuisance, for example, calling to prayer at 2am is a no-no. Not that I believe that there are calls to prayer at 2am, except perhaps in Ramadan, I don't know.
It's important to be welcoming but not docile, firm but not fanatically against, and I don't think any country in the EU has found that balance yet. Germany is too docile and will have a massive and painful backlash in the near future because of it, Poland and Hungary are too firm, too unwelcoming which means that any Muslims who do wind up there are more likely to turn to extremism because of that sense of being in a place where no-one wants you except your own kind, and that kind of sentiment makes it easy for recruiters to begin worming their way into peoples minds, especially those in their teens or early twenties who are traditionally outcasts of society anyway.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Of course islam is evil, it's a religion.

It's the mentality that it has a monopoly on being evil that I can't stand.
And that my local burek baker is going to behead me one day when I pick up lunch just because he's a muslim.

Only if you try to give him fake currency.

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

@Oberon, I won't stick my spoon into this soup other than throwing in some spices.

There are followers and then there are "followers". Former which I would call "true followers" actually practice their religion and follow its teachings. Latter ones are more like "habitual followers" who do as they please and observe what they please.

I personally fit into latter category. I'm officially member of Evangelical Lutheran church but in reality I'm agnostic at best. I don't pray or read the Bible. I visit church occasionally for habitual reasons but hardly ever pay much attention to priest's sermon.

Most people I know represent some flavour of habitual spirituality and I dare to suppose that many Muslims aren't any different.

I understand, I think that a good number of Muslims are indeed habitual followers, those like the Pakistani that runs the local corner shop, or Betonovs baker. Often enough the hardcore followers would likely look down on them as not being Muslim enough, which I guess puts them in a bit of a black hole as far as western society goes, they're Muslim so non-Muslims will lump them in with the fanatical Muslims but the fanatical Muslims don't like them either. Rock and a Hajj place, perhaps (Sorry).

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Only if you try to give him fake currency.

He's Albanian. Probably came from his printing shop.

[Catfish]

Von Due posted this, and before it gets buried in the flood:

http://www.newstatesman.com/religion...radicalisation

" ... Berks, not martyrs. “Pathetic figures”, to quote the former MI6 chief Richard Dearlove, not holy warriors. If we want to tackle jihadism, we need to stop exaggerating the threat these young men pose and giving them the oxygen of publicity they crave, and start highlighting how so many of them lead decidedly un-Islamic lives. ..."

Well. worth. reading.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.

So, a muslim who thinks the Sharia should rule is... not radical?
Because over 1 billion muslims do think the Sharia should rule.