The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged) - Page 9

The Avon Lady · 06-16-06, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Somehow you are always a second ahead of me.

Any chance that you do play chess...?

Wanted to have done it yesterday, but football was against it.

I don't play chess and I don't like football.

No wonder I'm ahead of you!

The Avon Lady · 06-16-06, 05:36 AM

Skybird, someone wrote a letter to Melanie Phillips, which I think you'll appreciate. Maybe others will, too.

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June 11, 2006
The voice of beleaguered British sanity

I have been immensely touched and heartened by the steady stream of support and encouragement I have been receiving in response to my book Londonistan and my various articles and broadcasting appearances related to its publication. I am extremely grateful to everyone who has written. What is notable is that so many feel they are alone in thinking the way they do; but what is clear from such a reaction is that, on the contrary, there are many, many people who retain a strong sense of decency, conscience, and the ability to think straight, and who see very clearly what is going on and how it threatens our national survival. At a time when such people have effectively been politically disenfranchised, it is particularly important that they know they are not alone. In that spirit, I reproduce here a message I received today.

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I just want you to know that its so incredibly refreshing to know that there is someone in public arena to speak for those of us, who are increasingly fearful of the cultural and moral erosion we see in this country, as a result of a 'multi-cultural' society. I have never felt so compelled to write or contact someone as yourself, ever, ever before, until today, because I have simply had enough.
It amazes me greatly that people who are meant to be seen as rational, intelligent and highly educated cannot (or perhaps are too fearful) see that there is a great difference between being a racist who still lives in the dark ages and wishes for Britain to remain a white Anglo-Saxon society and those who are advocates of a British cultural and national identity.

My parents were among the many Nigerians who were sent to Britain by their parents in the 1960s to gain an education. My father qualified as a pharmacist from Cardiff University and my mother studied sociology and social policy at Birmingham. They had my brother and sister here, before returning to Nigeria in 1976, where my younger brother and I were born. They stayed in Nigeria from 1976 to 1985, where both my parents were finding it increasing difficult to live and survive in a country where corruption was necessary to maintain a particular lifestyle.

I clearly remember when my parents told my siblings and I that we were coming back to Britain, as my father's old employer had given him a job in Luton to manage one of his chemist shops - I was so excited. I was finally coming to this great country that I had heard so much about.

Britain, the country where there was always a right and proper way of doing things, a democratic country that allowed for freedom of speech and expression but was still relatively grounded in its beliefs. A Christian country that allowed for the practice of other faiths. One in which where there were opportunities for all who sought it and were prepared to work for it, almost regardless of race and colour.

I went to a local state school, where we had assembly and sang hymns and the headmistress gave a closing prayer. Hymns and closing prayer?? That’s almost unheard of in many state schools now - and why? Multiculturalism and the completely misguided belief that it would cause offence to non-Christians.

I completely agree with you that the goverment, the establishment, even the Royal Family (Prince Charles, defender of all faiths) have been completely sucked into a situation where in the country trying to be all things to all men has given up it beliefs, its fabric, its everything and is bereft of anything. My children are certainly not being taught what it means to be British – gosh, it’s almost embarrassing to say 'I am British'. Teaching all children from an early age to be able to sing the national anthe, would probably provoke a national debate about why we should have an anthem that mentions 'O Lord our God', as it might offend our non-Christian bothers and sisters. The true goal would be completely pushed aside.

I am worried that my children are growing up in a society where there is no national identity and celebration of the British culture. I can definitely attest to the fact that this lack of identity is causing children of second, third etc generation of immigrants to be brought up with the beliefs and national identity of the country their parents or grandparents have come from. They view and will view themselves to be British only as far as their passport is concerned, but a Nigerian, a Ghanaian, a Pakistani or an Indian first and foremost. I am not saying that it is this lack of identity that is solely responsible for young British Muslims wanting to blow themselves and others up, but it certainly plays a large part. They see themselves as Muslim and Pakistani / Bangladeshi / Jamaican first. For some, ‘British’ does not even feature in their identity — hence why they are so able to do what they do and believe what they believe.

Look at America, a country many times larger than ours with people from every corner of the earth, yet they still manage to retain a sense of what it means to be an American, because they make no apology for trying to instil this identity from when one has to pass the citizenship test, to the ceremony and pledge of allegiance.

It amazed me greatly after the July bombing that the majority of the media and British, white public were so shocked that 'our' own people could do this. I certainly was not shocked. What this part of the country needs to realise is because of the promotion of multiculturalism, THERE IS NO LONGER AN 'US'. There now exist separate identities living under the umbrella of Britain/United Kingdom, but who certainly do not view themselves as British.

After the recent raid in East London and the growing likelihood that the police might not find anything, I felt a sense of dread that the 'undercover' extremist groups and Muslim groups who in public like to pretend that there isn't an issue to be worried about (of which there are many) would now be able to use this as a weapon to be fashioned against the police and government, in order to ensure that their activities continue to go undetected and to protect 'their own'. These groups and their leaders who appear in the media, are aware that there is a problem within their communities but as a result of lack of identity or togetherness to the country they live in, they believe that their loyalty belongs first and foremost to their own, rather than to this country.

They might not necessarily agree with those who commit these atrocities, but are more likely to pretend to the outside world that all is well within and try and resolve the issues themselves that report a brother or sister who they know is planning to commit a terrorist crime, because their loyalty belongs to them first and not to the Crown.

There are many second generation immigrants, who although born and bred in this country are feeling a sense of alienation from the country they chose to come and live in and were prepared to imbibe its culture as well as keeping the culture of their parents, because the country, in trying to be all things to all men, has lost its identity and all are left with a lack of belonging.

My parents and I and many black and ethnic groups have always voted for Labour out of a sense of history, but I can certainly tell you that this group are more and more feeling disenchanted with the government as it is they who have slowly helped to ensure the erosion of a national identity out of a sense of political correctness, which they looked to and wanted their children to imbibe.

The Conservatives are certainly missing a trick here - the country wants direction and a national identity to be proud of and not ashamed of; someone who won’t apologise for insisting that those wanting to become citizens must learn to speak English and to pledge allegiance to the Crown, must learn the history of the country and must be able to sing the national anthem. That Christianity is the national faith, for which we make no apology for, that children must and should sing hymns in schools and have prayers.

We should stop being scared and embarrassed for wanting to be proud to be British. If the white, indigenous people are embarrassed about their identity, what hope is there for the rest of us.

You speak for a larger group of people than you probably know.

Skybird · 06-16-06, 06:01 AM

A good reading. Thanks. Reminds me of what an old Armenian school friend of mine is saying, too - different words, same content.

I noted that you are very quick to show up with a huge number of links when the articles do fit in. Do you scan the web for that stuff as kind of your hobby, or is it part of your job? I myself may stumble over something and make a note for later use - and have forgotten it again the next day.

The Avon Lady · 06-16-06, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

A good reading. Thanks. Reminds me of what an old Armenian school friend of mine is saying, too - different words, same content.

I noted that you are very quick to show up with a huge number of links when the articles do fit in. Do you scan the web for that stuff as kind of your hobby, or is it part of your job? I myself may stumble over something and make a note for later use - and have forgotten it again the next day.

I do a lot of searching for some of my work. I pop in to JW a few times a day to see what's new.

Skybird · 06-16-06, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Is Sha'aria law "in contrast" with European laws? Yes or no? (Skybird, no sarcastic remarks, please!

)

Nooooo... why should I

.

aaken,

Islam is politics and religious cult in one and the same hand, no separation as we have acchieved in in the West. Where Islam demands protection by the law due to our freedom to freely practice religion, it gets that protection - for it's cult as well as for it's policy. And it's policy inevitable includes sharia. And Sharia overrules our constitutional order and any earthly legal code, becasue Sharia is divine, and legal codes are work of man only (that'S how they see it, it is not important how we see it). Our own laws are working against us that way. At stake is not their freedom to freely express and practice - but paradoxically ours. And medias already have become very careful about what they say abiut Islam, and how they say it. No open criticism anymore - you get brandmarked not by them, but by your own fearsome people.

aaken · 06-16-06, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaken
I'm not disputing the fact that you've never given up your claim on Israel, nor I'm disputing the right of anybody to exist. But, although the arabs who were previously living over there have never been a nation, I don't think that displacing them (in part or in toto)

There were not displaced in 1947, when the UN partitioned the country and Israel accepted it, with all it's disadvantages.

They were displaced in 1948, when the Arabs declared war and attacked the Jewish State. They were then kept displaced by the Arabs themselves, who used them as a tool of misery against Israel for 20 years and no one in the world batted an eyelid about them.

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and occupying the land that, for any reason, they thought it was theirs, has had a good effect on their mood.

The Arabs again threatened to push the Jews into the sea, mounted their troops, tanks and air forces against Israel. They lost. We won. Too bad.

In a sane world, the lesson would be crime does not pay. Not so with the Arabs against the Jews.

In any case, it was the Arabs who refused to negotiate and "recognize" Israel for another decade.

Reminder: the PLO, with its charter to destroy Israel, was founded in 1964 - 3 years before any Israeli had a foothold in Judea, Samaria or Gaza.

You're absolutely correct. But I've never said that Arab-Palestinians are smart and learn from their mistakes. If they were, there would not be a Palestinian-Israelian problem nowadays. Just that whatever they suffered did not improve their mood. Understandable.

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Is Sha'aria law "in contrast" with European laws? Yes or no? (Skybird, no sarcastic remarks, please! )

Is Jihad law "in contrast" with European laws?

Yes to both. But where in Europe those "laws" have been, are or are about to be "accepted"?
I didn't see any parlamentary debate in Belgium or in Italy or in Norway about adopting them.
(I speak just of the countries in which I live/lived).

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Are Christians trying to forceably or cunningly rule over Saudi Arabia and then harshly subjugate its population afterwards and kill those that continue to resist?

No. But it doesn't seem to me that the arabs are trying to subjugate the population in Europe and so on and so forth. But probably that's because I don't live in the same reality as you or Skybird. Well...time for coffee and cigarette...

EDIT: After the coffee and cigarette...

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Learn, learn, learn what dhimmitude is, what jizyah is, how they were employed in countries overrun by Islam.

I've always been unable to learn what I cannot pronounce. I would be ashamed if I started now.

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What we discuss is Haram

I don't know what it is, but if it's a good thing then I hope you get it too.

caspofungin · 06-16-06, 08:44 AM

@AL

a mujahid is someone who fights in the service of Allah -- fight against repression or persecution or whatever -- taking it to mean strictly someone who straps a bomb to themselves or carries a kalshnikov is limiting the definition. so taking a passage

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" Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah jihad fi sabil Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah: and Allah guides not those who do wrong."Quran 9:19

doesn't mean that the quran's telling you to go and blow up restaurants and buses. certainly, there are those that believe it does, there are also those that don't. but again, we've had this discussion previously

re nation -- members of a nation are distinguished by a common identity, and almost always by a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage, or descent. that's distinct from a nation-state.

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In a sane world, the lesson would be crime does not pay. Not so with the Arabs against the Jews.

so what's the crime?

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...an historic, eternal and inalienable right to exist in this land, Eretz Yisrael, the land of our forefathers...

fair enough. what about the arabs' rights? their forefathers lived there too. don't they have rights? apparently not. an arab family can have lived on a ptach of land for generations, now they're living in a refugee camp. they have running water 4 hours a day (the israelis control the water), intermittent electricity (again, who controls the infrastructure?), have to depend on the goodwill of whoever is manning the border crossing that day to get to work or school. meanwhile, some joe fresh off the plane from kiev or wherever gets a nice, well-appointed home, running wate, electricity, and subsidies from the government.

i don't want to get into wether this is right or wrong, because that's something we'll never agree on. same with the path to the current situation -- i don't want to get into whose fault it is. but at the very least, given the current situation, can you see why this inequity can lead to frustration and eventually violence? You reap what you sow -- you said it, not me.

@yahoshua

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And if one of them so much as screams to the media about their "oh so horrible occupation under Israel" WHY do they come to Israel for jobs i it's so horrible?

because the israeli occupation has had a devestating economic impact on palestinians and their livelihoods. it's hard to get ahead economically when your trade access, investment funds, and opportunities for education are limited by an occupying power. they come to israel for jobs because they don't have a choice.

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And if you can't seem to understand how violent Islam is after having lived in Saudi Arabia (Friday beheadings anyone?) then how will you understand anyone else?

crime and punishment -- crime doesn't pay, as AL said. and the inequity of who gets beheaded and who gets to stay in prison has more to do w/ society, economics, racism than religion -- just like in every country w/ capital punishment.

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how will you understand anyone else... I'd rather paint all Moslems with the same brush because I'm tired of tying to filter out the individuals. Moslems = Islam.

that's right. the path to understanding is through crass generalizations and collective punishment -- because it's easier. if i painted all jews with the same brush because of what i see happening in israel, who'd be the first to call me racist?

Tedo · 06-16-06, 08:54 AM

I think jews are to blame for things happening in palestina. Muslims have every right for this land. Its their land, and jews are just suppresing them. One thing more JEWS ARE NO A NATION!!!

Waiting for your critics now

Yahoshua · 06-16-06, 09:08 AM

"because the israeli occupation has had a devestating economic impact on palestinians and their livelihoods. it's hard to get ahead economically when your trade access, investment funds, and opportunities for education are limited by an occupying power. they come to israel for jobs because they don't have a choice."

And Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon don't want to provide for their Arab brethren? Those multi-billion dollar profiteering sheiks don't care about their people, but it's all Israels fault because she's taking the necessary steps to defend herself? How shocking!!! (read with sarcasm).

If Mexico were commencing terror attacks against the United States, there would be a massive amount of carpet bombing in retaliation for it. But if Israel so much as lifts up a finger (checkpoints, curfews, assassinations, etc.) then she's the worlds worst opressor. Can we remember who STARTED the terror bombings to begin with?

"crime and punishment -- crime doesn't pay, as AL said. and the inequity of who gets beheaded and who gets to stay in prison has more to do w/ society, economics, racism than religion -- just like in every country w/ capital punishment."

Oh yes.... The crime of a woman who stands accused of looking at another man, the crime of stealing bread because a beggar is starving to death (in an oil rich arab country one would think these people were capable of taking care of their people). And the worst crime of all: being a Christian, or a foriegner who doesn't believe in Islam.

Yes, they're so just and equal in their doling our of capital punishment.

"That's right. the path to understanding is through crass generalizations and collective punishment -- because it's easier. if i painted all jews with the same brush because of what i see happening in israel, who'd be the first to call me racist?"

Well, if you're in Saudi Arabia, nobody would call you racist for it. I'm sure you've seen all the cartoons on the paper stands over there.

And yes, I hold the ENTIRE community of Moslems responsible for the actions of their own brethren. They molded themselves into this way of thinking and behavior, and it is their responsibility to bear for what actions their members commit.

If somebody murders a person in America, they're punished for it. In Islam it is encouraged (against those who aren't Moslem that is). If they do not condemn these actions and actively WORK towards stopping the terrorists, then they are no different from the terrorists.

I believe someone here already said something along the lines of "If you fly with the crows, expect to get shot with them."

Onkel Neal · 06-16-06, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scandium

Since there is absolutely no moderation going on in these threads, no matter what is said or how outrageous, they are beginning to appear more and more as an asylumn with the lunatics in charge, and they can have at it.

Sorry, but unless we make religion and politics offlimits, this is going to occur. I'm happy is usually contained in one thread. As soon as I see Avon Lady or Skybird posting something with the words "Jewish", "Christian", or "Islam", I quit reading the topic. As I did this one. I'm here now after several people complained that this topic is rife with personal attacks.
No personal attacks. There, it has been moderated.

gabeeg · 06-16-06, 01:15 PM

It's funny I would probably have been one of those multi-culti people carrying the flag of cultural/religious relativism a few years ago. I have become more and more frustrated by the Muslim peoples I had tried to defend. I had argued that it is not "Islam" that was the problem but Individuals or groups that were the problem. I had argued the reasons for decades of modern problems were combinations of culture, socio-economic disparity, western ignorance and arrogance, etc. I still believe these things to a large extent and I believe that they are indeed at the root of our current problems. Where I have changed is in my willingness to give a free pass to these "Islamic Cultures" (Arab, Turkic, etc.). Where are the Muslim voices for reason? Where are the calls from the leaders in these "cultures" for more tolerance and understanding? Where are Clerics that while believing they are oppressed or wronged, try to create dialog....or admit that they are any small part of any problem? Granted there are those that attempt these things but their voices are weak and lack conviction in most instances. Time and time again they say the right things for western consumption and something else for their own domestic audience. Where are the leaders and clerics that are taking risks for the cause of reason? Where are the leaders and clerics that are willing to give what what they demand from us? Is it Indeed the teachings of Islam that make these things so seemingly impossible?

I often hear of the wrongs of Judeo-Christian cultures, such as the Crusades and the Isreali oppression of Palestinians. That these histories are daily reality to Islamic nations and cultures and are a part of their cultural consiousness. What about Islam? For centuries they had ruled over large areas of once Christian nations. Still to this day there are large judeo-christian communities in Islamic lands. Have they always been treated with tolerance? Even today, what Islamic state can say that their Judeo-Christian populations are equal....none. From the worst where they are unwelcome, persecuted, murdered to the best where they are a sub-class not nearly equal in the eyes of the government or the courts, though they maybe tolerated and live thier lives generally unmolested. Where are the calls for this to be changed? I have heard nothing but apologists even from the most reform and liberally minded in the Islamic leadership. Is it political immaturity or something else, more deeply seated?

I have read recently a bit on Gandhi, where is the Islamic Gandhi? A person who agressively pursues to correct the wrongs done to his people but is just as unyielding in standing up to intolerance in his own peoples/nation? I do not want to believe that to be a true Muslim and a true voice tolerance and understanding are incompatible. I have read the greater part of the Koran (I have three separate translations) and for the most part do not see this imcompatibility. I have read troubling passages...(but I have read troubling passages in the bible) and also passage of tolerance especially for "Peoples of the Book". What I am coming to think is that maybe these areas I find so troubling are core beliefs that are unable to be taken in context to times or events in the past.

I don't know....I really don't but I am greatly frustrated and disapointed. I find it harder and harder to defend a people and religion that though greatly wronged and misunderstood...does little or nothing to justify this defence.

As an Armenian (American) myself I have always appreciated the stories of those Muslims that helped the Armenian people (Turk, Kurd or Arab) during the Genocide and used these great and good deads to argue that Islam was not the problem but the Turkish Government and its followers (sadly a large percentage of the population). I was proud when the U.S. and allies defended the Muslims of Kosovo and largely for the right reasons (Humanitarian). I am proud as an Armenian that one of Armenias few friends in this world is Muslim Iran. How do I reconcile these feeling?

scandium · 06-16-06, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabeeg

It's funny I would probably have been one of those multi-culti people carrying the flag of cultural/religious relativism a few years ago. I have become more and more frustrated by the Muslim peoples I had tried to defend. I had argued that it is not "Islam" that was the problem but Individuals or groups that were the problem. I had argued the reasons for decades of modern problems were combinations of culture, socio-economic disparity, western ignorance and arrogance, etc. I still believe these things to a large extent and I believe that they are indeed at the root of our current problems. Where I have changed is in my willingness to give a free pass to these "Islamic Cultures" (Arab, Turkic, etc.). Where are the Muslim voices for reason? Where are the calls from the leaders in these "cultures" for more tolerance and understanding? Where are Clerics that while believing they are oppressed or wronged, try to create dialog....or admit that they are any small part of any problem? Granted there are those that attempt these things but their voices are weak and lack conviction in most instances. Time and time again they say the right things for western consumption and something else for their own domestic audience. Where are the leaders and clerics that are taking risks for the cause of reason? Where are the leaders and clerics that are willing to give what what they demand from us? Is it Indeed the teachings of Islam that make these things so seemingly impossible?

They are drowned out by the acts of the few extremists because preaching moderation doesn't get headlines and it doesn't sell newspapers. Here in Canada we've had tens of thousands of Muslims living with us peacefully for decades but its the recent plot of 17 of them that puts the entire Muslim community in the spotlight. And it strikes me as an absurd thing that a few people here happily tar these tens of thousands with the terrorist brush, tens of thousands who are not terrorirst and are not extremists, but there it is.

And if I listened to the hysterical ravings of the few Islamophobes here then I would be building myself a mideival style castle and arming myself for Armagedon. Meanwhile in reality (the place that some seem to have departed already) I am more likely to get struck by lightning than I am to be a victim of terrorism. For that matter, if I'm ever a victim of violence (including road rage, random shootings, muggings, the entire spectrum of violent crime) I am much more likely to be victimized by someone of my own Christian faith simply because that is how it is statistically (here in this place called reality). I suspect its the same in Fresno, California.

In any case, I prefer to enjoy my life and be tolerant of people of all faiths and ethnicities to allowing myself to fall prey to this culture of fear that is being preached by the likes of Jerry Falwell and those on this board who sound just like him, who would have me live in fear of the big bad Islamic boogeyman and move to a mountain awaiting Armegedon.

Skybird · 06-16-06, 02:35 PM

While the tide is growing, the small island of the happy will become increasingly crowded. A friendly Muslim neighbor in the neighbouring appartment will not change that.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, send a boy to college, but you can't make him think." (Sherrie Austin)

caspofungin · 06-16-06, 05:12 PM

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it's all Israels fault because she's taking the necessary steps to defend herself

that's not what I said -- don't put words in my mouth. any action has a repercussion of some sort -- the "necessary steps" that israel undertakes are taken as provocative attacks by hamas and others. i'm not stating who's right or wrong or where the blame lies -- just simple cause and effect.

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Can we remember who STARTED the terror bombings to begin with?

King David Hotel? Irgun? The Stern gang, fighting the British in palestine while british soldiers were dying against the nazi's? war crimes in 1948, 1956, 1967? the arab's haven't been alone in using terrorism, friend. don't try and paint it that way.

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And the worst crime of all: being a Christian, or a foriegner who doesn't believe in Islam.

there's plenty of christian expatriates in saudi arabia -- they're not being lined up at the execution square. no, they're working in well-paid jobs with great benefits.

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Yes, they're so just and equal in their doling our of capital punishment

if you actually read my thread, you'll see that i made no claims about the saudi justice system being just and equal. all i said was that being imprisoned/punished had more to do with society than religion. and no, skybird, muslim society does not equal religion. just like every other religion, there's a disconnect between what's written in the books and what's practised on the ground.

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If somebody murders a person in America, they're punished for it.

i've yet to see the detroit pd bulldozer someone's house because a person that lived there commited murder. how can you possibly equate civil jurisprudence with the collective punishment that happens in palestine?

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And yes, I hold the ENTIRE community of Moslems responsible for the actions of their own brethren. They molded themselves into this way of thinking and behavior, and it is their responsibility to bear for what actions their members commit.

i fell off my chair when i read this one. so, i'm busy living in the usa, minding my own business, paying my taxes, breaking no laws, doing more for society in the form of my job than a lot of americans -- but i'm still at fault when someone in israel blows themselves up?

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If they do not condemn these actions and actively WORK towards stopping the terrorists, then they are no different from the terrorists.

those same saudi prisons are full of al-qaeda members and sympathizers. it was jordanian intelligence that gave the info that allowed zarqawi to be found and killed. there was a huge march in london after 7/7 by muslims condemning the terrorist attack. tell me, specifically, what else do you want? again, it's just easier to lump all the muslims together and brand them as terrorists. when i'm in guantanamo bay, i'll just try and remember that i'm there because you were too ****ing lazy. thanks.

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Well, if you're in Saudi Arabia, nobody would call you racist for it. I'm sure you've seen all the cartoons on the paper stands over there.

and there's no anti-arab feeling in israel? you're all about loving thy neighbour?

my point -- and scandiums, several posts ago -- is why are you holding the entire muslim nation to a standard that you hold no one else to?

scandium · 06-16-06, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caspofungin

Quote:

And yes, I hold the ENTIRE community of Moslems responsible for the actions of their own brethren. They molded themselves into this way of thinking and behavior, and it is their responsibility to bear for what actions their members commit.

i fell off my chair when i read this one. so, i'm busy living in the usa, minding my own business, paying my taxes, breaking no laws, doing more for society in the form of my job than a lot of americans -- but i'm still at fault when someone in israel blows themselves up?

This is where their arguements ultimately collapse, and are shown for the irrational hatred and intolerance that is behind them. To use the recent plot in Canada as an example, again, the people here advocating this collective guilt and collective punishment would have us blame the entire Muslim community of tens of thousands for the acts of 17, and then do what? Strip them of their Canadian citizenship and deport them? Turn them out of their homes and put them in camps? Line a few up in Town's Square and shoot them? Madness, and the people who advocate such are no better than those they condemn.

06-16-06, 06:01 AM	#123
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,666 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	A good reading. Thanks. Reminds me of what an old Armenian school friend of mine is saying, too - different words, same content. I noted that you are very quick to show up with a huge number of links when the articles do fit in. Do you scan the web for that stuff as kind of your hobby, or is it part of your job? I myself may stumble over something and make a note for later use - and have forgotten it again the next day. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-16-06, 01:15 PM	#131
gabeeg Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Fresno, CA USA Posts: 101 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	It's funny I would probably have been one of those multi-culti people carrying the flag of cultural/religious relativism a few years ago. I have become more and more frustrated by the Muslim peoples I had tried to defend. I had argued that it is not "Islam" that was the problem but Individuals or groups that were the problem. I had argued the reasons for decades of modern problems were combinations of culture, socio-economic disparity, western ignorance and arrogance, etc. I still believe these things to a large extent and I believe that they are indeed at the root of our current problems. Where I have changed is in my willingness to give a free pass to these "Islamic Cultures" (Arab, Turkic, etc.). Where are the Muslim voices for reason? Where are the calls from the leaders in these "cultures" for more tolerance and understanding? Where are Clerics that while believing they are oppressed or wronged, try to create dialog....or admit that they are any small part of any problem? Granted there are those that attempt these things but their voices are weak and lack conviction in most instances. Time and time again they say the right things for western consumption and something else for their own domestic audience. Where are the leaders and clerics that are taking risks for the cause of reason? Where are the leaders and clerics that are willing to give what what they demand from us? Is it Indeed the teachings of Islam that make these things so seemingly impossible? I often hear of the wrongs of Judeo-Christian cultures, such as the Crusades and the Isreali oppression of Palestinians. That these histories are daily reality to Islamic nations and cultures and are a part of their cultural consiousness. What about Islam? For centuries they had ruled over large areas of once Christian nations. Still to this day there are large judeo-christian communities in Islamic lands. Have they always been treated with tolerance? Even today, what Islamic state can say that their Judeo-Christian populations are equal....none. From the worst where they are unwelcome, persecuted, murdered to the best where they are a sub-class not nearly equal in the eyes of the government or the courts, though they maybe tolerated and live thier lives generally unmolested. Where are the calls for this to be changed? I have heard nothing but apologists even from the most reform and liberally minded in the Islamic leadership. Is it political immaturity or something else, more deeply seated? I have read recently a bit on Gandhi, where is the Islamic Gandhi? A person who agressively pursues to correct the wrongs done to his people but is just as unyielding in standing up to intolerance in his own peoples/nation? I do not want to believe that to be a true Muslim and a true voice tolerance and understanding are incompatible. I have read the greater part of the Koran (I have three separate translations) and for the most part do not see this imcompatibility. I have read troubling passages...(but I have read troubling passages in the bible) and also passage of tolerance especially for "Peoples of the Book". What I am coming to think is that maybe these areas I find so troubling are core beliefs that are unable to be taken in context to times or events in the past. I don't know....I really don't but I am greatly frustrated and disapointed. I find it harder and harder to defend a people and religion that though greatly wronged and misunderstood...does little or nothing to justify this defence. As an Armenian (American) myself I have always appreciated the stories of those Muslims that helped the Armenian people (Turk, Kurd or Arab) during the Genocide and used these great and good deads to argue that Islam was not the problem but the Turkish Government and its followers (sadly a large percentage of the population). I was proud when the U.S. and allies defended the Muslims of Kosovo and largely for the right reasons (Humanitarian). I am proud as an Armenian that one of Armenias few friends in this world is Muslim Iran. How do I reconcile these feeling? __________________ Kind Regards, Harry J. Miktarian

06-16-06, 02:35 PM	#133
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,666 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	While the tide is growing, the small island of the happy will become increasingly crowded. A friendly Muslim neighbor in the neighbouring appartment will not change that. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, send a boy to college, but you can't make him think." (Sherrie Austin) __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-16-06, 08:54 AM	#128
Tedo Watch Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 16 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	I think jews are to blame for things happening in palestina. Muslims have every right for this land. Its their land, and jews are just suppresing them. One thing more JEWS ARE NO A NATION!!! Waiting for your critics now

06-16-06, 09:08 AM	#129
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	"because the israeli occupation has had a devestating economic impact on palestinians and their livelihoods. it's hard to get ahead economically when your trade access, investment funds, and opportunities for education are limited by an occupying power. they come to israel for jobs because they don't have a choice." And Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon don't want to provide for their Arab brethren? Those multi-billion dollar profiteering sheiks don't care about their people, but it's all Israels fault because she's taking the necessary steps to defend herself? How shocking!!! (read with sarcasm). If Mexico were commencing terror attacks against the United States, there would be a massive amount of carpet bombing in retaliation for it. But if Israel so much as lifts up a finger (checkpoints, curfews, assassinations, etc.) then she's the worlds worst opressor. Can we remember who STARTED the terror bombings to begin with? "crime and punishment -- crime doesn't pay, as AL said. and the inequity of who gets beheaded and who gets to stay in prison has more to do w/ society, economics, racism than religion -- just like in every country w/ capital punishment." Oh yes.... The crime of a woman who stands accused of looking at another man, the crime of stealing bread because a beggar is starving to death (in an oil rich arab country one would think these people were capable of taking care of their people). And the worst crime of all: being a Christian, or a foriegner who doesn't believe in Islam. Yes, they're so just and equal in their doling our of capital punishment. "That's right. the path to understanding is through crass generalizations and collective punishment -- because it's easier. if i painted all jews with the same brush because of what i see happening in israel, who'd be the first to call me racist?" Well, if you're in Saudi Arabia, nobody would call you racist for it. I'm sure you've seen all the cartoons on the paper stands over there. And yes, I hold the ENTIRE community of Moslems responsible for the actions of their own brethren. They molded themselves into this way of thinking and behavior, and it is their responsibility to bear for what actions their members commit. If somebody murders a person in America, they're punished for it. In Islam it is encouraged (against those who aren't Moslem that is). If they do not condemn these actions and actively WORK towards stopping the terrorists, then they are no different from the terrorists. I believe someone here already said something along the lines of "If you fly with the crows, expect to get shot with them."