The SS (separated from the Holocaust thread).

[Damo1977]

Originally Posted by Abraham

C'mon Damo1977, don't be so defensive! You always claim to be blunt and outspoken, so I found a funny remark fitting for your careful wording...

As far as Hitler and Nazism is concerned, I prefer to make my position cristal clear

LOL I have been so frigging busy I have about 5 mins aday to look on the comp including start up. Know its been along time in between innings, but alas because Germany lost the war I can't own a slave, so unfair .

Plus like I have said now I am earning a 'true' crust happier with world except those jap fishings boats tht just set out. But Abraham no one truely knows what went on with the SS, me finish at that :|\ . War is over.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

Sorry, poor assumption I suppose. I otherwise do not reason for intense emotional response then. Largely due to the fact racial minorities generaly inflict heavier casualties on themselves.

I am white, Canadian, (parents are immigrants)....

Only casualties by my own ethnic groups were by commies, otherwise by foreign facists (German or Italian) earlier by Turks. (Persians tried and failed :|\ )

Dumb@ss.

[Dead Mans Hand]

@August
A book I'd like you to pick up is "Deadly Brother Hood" it gives a good impression of what other special forces think of PJ training.... heh....

Also denying American attrocities? Again do you nothing of Vietnam?? Or do you consider the napalming of small villages and exceution of "civilians" that were summarily tried as members of the VC to be ok? Also, do you consider the treatment of Somalians by our SpecOps in Mogadeshu (Pre-Blackhawk down) to be befitting?? I'm refering to terroizing the market square with low flying helecopters, in a desert that kicks up one hell of alot of dust, go figure. Further more you're denying that our forces do not colaborate and/or train as well as equip units that are known for their poor human rights records. To keep going, you deny that "we'll turn you over to country X" (when X is a non-Geneva compliant nation) is not a standard method of interigation? You also deny that our Airforce's involvement in wars of attrition, via carpet bombing, is perfectly ok.

Oh yeah - and since you've forced my hand, you're willing to state that the large amount of troops involved in the Abu Ghraib crap is a mock op, you're also going to tell me what goes on in Guentanemo is AOK, and I'm willing to bet that you'll say the ignorant treatment of Iraqi citizens that I have heard of from returning soldiers - one of which was Airforce btw - is just peachy. Only a few bad apples! Oh yeah and you're going to tell me that the gang banging that goes on at our bases to the extent where "getting rodded" is common place is alright to? You'll go even further to tell me that the AirForce isn't having problems with it's female officers being harassed and assaulted - because our troops are just so moraly ahead of everyone else. Or hey, since the only comics I read are in the news paper, you're going to tell me not to believe everything I hear from veterans and read in papers - right??

Look I love our troops, the infantry I've met are nuts. I've never found better men to drink with - but to say they are incapable of war crimes and to bull**** me that our military has a high moral standard is a waste. Maybe some will by the glorification of military, that's fine and a dandy.

*note I looked into the 10th, you picked a good unit to rep yourself with. Though, to accept you were in it, I would have to take it at face value - so since you find it impossible to do, I shall return the curtosey and assume you merely made that up, to bolster your arguement and I find the impersenation of an American soldier to be absolutely disgusting. Good day.

[M.Mira]

I am eagerly waiting for the promised posts of Abraham...
In my opinion Dead Mans Hand has been glorifying the SS and the whole Nazi-regime in Germany.

[August]

Originally Posted by M.Mira

I am eagerly waiting for the promised posts of Abraham...
In my opinion Dead Mans Hand has been glorifying the SS and the whole Nazi-regime in Germany.

Of course he is. Like many others who have never served their country he can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

[M.Mira]

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

.....as I am vehemently pro-Israel.

The feeling is totally one-sided

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by M.Mira

The feeling is totally one-sided

I noticed that remark too.
Reminded me of a line from a song written by Macy Gray: "If thís is love, it's a good thang you don't hate me..."

[Dead Mans Hand]

@M.Mira

I am eagerly waiting for the promised posts of Abraham...
In my opinion Dead Mans Hand has been glorifying the SS and the whole Nazi-regime in Germany.

I'm glad you came up with (presumably) your own opinion on this topic, but find it sad that you cannot support it with your own ideas. As for glorifying the Nazi's, when have I supported the Nazi party?? There is a difference between a Nazi and a member of the SS, in that, one did not have to believe in the Nazi cause to be a member of the SS. Also, since I believe in being thorough, I again point to the fact that many members of the Kriegsmarine - especially those in elevated positions, were infact members of the Nazi party and I could say that your playing any game in which you assume the role of a member of the Reich's armed forces is your glorifying the Nazi cause - could I not? (To hopefuly quiet the protest on that, please remember in the SH and other series you assume command of Nazi war material and proceed to use it to further the Nazi war effort.)

Sidenote: All naval ships flew under the Nazi flag btw, were their crews entirely comprised of Nazi's? Given Abrahams concept of compulsary enlistment, which is one that does not consider the reprocusions of not enlisting in the Third Reich, that means all the sailors chose to sail under the Nazi flag, making the Nazi's - because anyone who was German and fought in WWII was apparently a Nazi (as this is what you are saying about the SS)

Also: If your comment about my being pro-Israel is to say you're against (it) and support the Palestinian cause - please clarify.

@August
More juvenille comments? C'mon. Some things for you to think about:

1.) You have not responded to the documented history of American war crimes, in many instances this is considered concession.
2.) You have not responded, realisticaly, to the concept of American troops being willing and/or eager to kill in the name of country or for their own motivations - except for saying (and this is paraphrased) "Well, ge wilikers, they wouldn't do that."
3.) Everytime I bring up something you do not have a response to, you try and find something to insult me with, in hopes to discredit my arguement by discrediting me in your and/or your peers eyes - or atleast that is what I gather from your behavior thus far.
4.) I don't acknowledge the existence of war crimes for many reasons, including the only judges are the victors themselves, so don't think I'm saying our armed forces are bad - I support them 100% and as for Vietnam - if a village supported VC and nullifying it (by any means) was deemed neccesary I'm fully behind it - however by your definition that is a heinous act. So in that scenario it would be you against our troops. Not me. That is assuming you apply the standards which you are applying to the SS universaly, which if not invalidates your argument on the grounds of bias.

@Abraham
Bear in mind you know nothing about who I am. I am not getting defensive merely pointing out that my motives, geneology, and other details relevent to why I support Israel are not and most likely will not be disclosed on this forum - as personal information is utterly irrelevant to this debate. I am not, nor have I, nor will I, support the Nazi idealogy in anyway. I will say Hitler was a political genius and was a master writer/speaker. I will say that Himmler was an aboslute nutcase and was probably more depremental than anything. I will say, that the SS was comprised of some of the fiercest military units of our time. But I do not base this on their idealogy, I base it on what they did on the field of battle and how they did it. Their reprisals were harsh yes, but they responded with unflinching totallity. I for one respect the fact that in many cases they asked nothing of who the people where, why? Because justice does not care. Many militaries under many flags have acted the same way and present the same basic attitudes. It may be hard to understand, but I respect honesty and totallity more than whimsical and unsure methods. I support Israel's bulldozing of Palestinian "houses" that are used by Palestinians intent commiting acts against Israel more than I suppor the U.S. chastizing Israel and turning a blind eye to Palestine.

*Note: If you're insuating my support of the SS bears any anti-semitism, I resent that. If you cannot be objective - that is unfortunate, but to not hold me to your emotional standards.

[August]

Yeah Hand you go on believing that, i'm done with you.

[Dead Mans Hand]

@August
Case and point. It was a pleasure and I accept your withdraw.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

@August
Case and point. It was a pleasure and I accept your withdraw.

Case and point nothing. 6 pages and you have failed to change my mind (or anyone elses) regarding your beloved SS murderers. Truth be told your rather lame defense of those thugs has only strengthened my conviction that arguing with those who refuse to see is pointless.

[Dead Mans Hand]

Que sara sara

@August
My friend, you apparently do not see - and perhaps I have poorly shown, that I am not trying to excuse what they did. I was orginally trying to demonstrate that not all SS men were bad men. American pilots that dropped napalm on and near villages in 'nam were not bad men. War is hell, people die, and men do the unthinkable to keep living. To judge any soldier Soldier is wrong, in my opinion, and it is a crime to require men to kill, which is another reason I do not believe in war crimes. There is absolutely no honorable way to wage war and I feel to hate and attack SS for being soldiers is to hate and attack all soldiers. But if you think, were I responsable for the lives of men I would hesitate at task to keep them alive you are wrong.