ImprovedConvoys Beta and UnRealUBoat - Udated: 03-25

[CCIP]

Frankly, I don't think we should worry THAT much about survivability so long as it's within reasonable limits. I find that the game does a fine job with early war. In fact with RUb 1.43 the early war should, on the whole, be a little tougher.

Late war? Just think of what Jace and Egan did to the planes. There's something to keep you busy right there. And when you're not busy with them - I have to say that the escorts do their first job very well now - keeping you down and preventing you from doing anything particularly stupid. The newly-boosted surface guns should only help that. And then consider how some of my tweaks to the damage model should make damage/destruction of systems/sub-systems more likely if you take a wrong step - way more so than in any previous version.

Personally, I think RUb 1.43 is generally on the right track. I think the point is to keep a challenge element to the game, and reward the player for 'good', realistic behaviour. I think that's a much better alternative than a semi-unsurvivable game that rewards stupid and reckless behaviour... Which is basically my impression of unmodded SHIII, unfortunately.

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Frankly, I don't think we should worry THAT much about survivability so long as it's within reasonable limits. I find that the game does a fine job with early war. In fact with RUb 1.43 the early war should, on the whole, be a little tougher....

Sounds good!

In either case I am going to nerf the elites when I get home, perhaps tonight or during the day tomorrow. Alas I have so much stuff to do that's probably of higher priority. In fact, I'd be doing those things now, but at work it's much harder to accomplish those things. (Try studying a 1,000 page book for a certificate and avoid getting noticed at work!)

On another note, I am thinking about playing with adding Sergbuto's new merchants into the campaign. There'd be a new, large cargo so the boring C3 isn't the only option, and I think the transport might be small enough not to be silly to include in some convoys.

I haven't decided. That's more of a wishlist item.

Perhaps I'll nerf the escorts, add a PPL to HX43, and finish the GU/UG/MK/KM convoys. Then only AS will be left, which is so far south of the Equator I doubt much anyone will know or care if I don't bother with it.

[CCIP]

Well, that big transport - I'd say perhaps toning its original tonnage down, or completely precluding it from sailing on the single routes all over the place might at least be a good idea. I really find it a bit of an easy-picking otherwise.

[Oesten]

Regarding the realism argument, I'd go with Beery and make it as realistic as possible.

So what if the game is very, very easy in '39? Yes it will be, for the extremely experienced, extremely effective hardcore subsimmers on this forum. But for a novice player to SHIII, it will still be quite hard. Just doing manual shooting is hard enough, even against single merchants, without worrying about escorts and aircraft as well.

If RUB 1.43 is easy in '39, that will encourage new players, even people who have hardly even played SHIII yet, to play it, since it will give them a nice shallow learning curve. Many people may be avoiding trying RUB at the moment because they're afraid that it is too hardcore and that they will die almost every patrol they play.

In 1944 and 1945, having realism is also the best way to go. It should be a very major achievement just to survive a patrol, and actually sinking even one ship, is as great a victory as sinking 10 early in the war.

[graffen]

Regretably, I've been away from SH3 and these boards for about a month. I'd like to receive advice regarding whether the following mods applied in the order indicated, would/would not conflict.

Thank you!

(1) RuB1.43 (when it comes out next week)
(2) jasonb's ImprovedConvoys (7-20 release)
(3) SonarDC_Fix by Jungman
(4) Hampton Class Cruiser Mod by Sergbuto

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by graffen

Regretably, I've been away from SH3 and these boards for about a month. I'd like to receive advice regarding whether the following mods applied in the order indicated, would/would not conflict.

Thank you!

(1) RuB1.43 (when it comes out next week)
(2) jasonb's ImprovedConvoys (7-20 release)
(3) SonarDC_Fix by Jungman
(4) Hampton Class Cruiser Mod by Sergbuto

(1) will include (2) and a further enchanced version of (3). I've also not heard any problems of (4) working with (1) :|\

[graffen]

Originally Posted by CCIP

(1) RuB1.43 (when it comes out next week)
(2) jasonb's ImprovedConvoys (7-20 release)
(3) SonarDC_Fix by Jungman
(4) Hampton Class Cruiser Mod by Sergbuto

(1) will include (2) and a further enchanced version of (3). I've also not heard any problems of (4) working with (1) :|\[/quote]

Wow, Thanks CCIP. I'm surprised that RuB1.43 is going to include all of jasonb's ImprovedConvoys tweaks, as well as the SonarDC fix by Jungman. That's sweet! RuB1.43 is really going to be something!!

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by Oesten

Regarding the realism argument, I'd go with Beery and make it as realistic as possible.

Playtest away and comment, then.

It's all academic at this point. I have nearly _zero_ playtest reports so I can't point things in favor of either realism or playability without information. So far I've been satisfied with the two or three patrols I've been on, so without any further feedback I'll just leave things alone and play on. Playtest reports are what make changes possible.

[jasonb885]

Actually, my biggest disappointment is people won't actually look at the inventory before commenting.

I've reproduced the relevant sections below in a sloppy copy and paste. The actual inventory file, ImprovedConvoyInventory.txt, is far better formatted. The % is the spawn probability for each group of escort class. (So 50% for two DDs means 50% spawn chance _per_ DD, not 1 @ 100% and 1 @ 0% for example.)

The convoys names should be somewhat obvious. They're based on the actual convoy designations.

The armed trawlers are set to elite. That's why you'll find some convoys with 25 or 50% elite. It's the trawlers bumping up the number of elites from 0 to 1 or 2. Trawlers are just about useless and sink while looking for you even in moderate seas, so I made them elite.

Looking at the numbers they might be a bit veteran heavy early in the war. OA and OB run into '41, so it's a tradeoff between being too easy early on or too easy later on. Flip a coin. Most of the other convoys stop by the end of '40 and are replaced with new definitions, so they can be reduced to, say, all competent, possibly.

HX39

Escorts for Convoy:
  Armed Trawler
     British
       PCTrawler                 1    50%
  Corvette
     British
       any                       1    30%
  Auxiliary Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    70%
  Destroyer
     British
       any                       1    30%

Escort Skill:

   Elite:33% Veteran:33% Competent:33% 

HX40

Escorts for Convoy:
  Corvette
     British
       any                       2    75%
  Auxiliary Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    70%
  Frigate / Sloop
     British
       any                       1    50%

Escort Skill:

   Veteran:66% Competent:33% 

SC40

Escorts for Convoy:
  Corvette
     British
       any                       2    75%
  Auxiliary Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    60%
  Frigate / Sloop
     British
       any                       1    50%

Escort Skill:

   Veteran:33% Competent:66% 

OA

Escorts for Convoy:
  Armed Trawler
     British
       PCTrawler                 1    50%
  Corvette
     British
       any                       1    50%
  Auxiliary Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    70%
  Destroyer
     British
       any                       1    30%

Escort Skill:

   Elite:33% Veteran:33% Competent:33% 

OB

Escorts for Convoy:
  Corvette
     British
       any                       2    75%
  Frigate / Sloop
     British
       any                       1   100%
  Destroyer
     British
       any                       1    50%
  Light Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    75%

Escort Skill:

   Veteran:50% Competent:50% 

SL39:

Escorts for Convoy:
  Armed Trawler
     British
       PCTrawler                 2   100%
  Corvette
     British
       any                       1    70%
  Auxiliary Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    70%
  Destroyer
     British
       any                       1    25%

Escort Skill:

   Elite:50% Veteran:25% Competent:25% 

SL40:

Escorts for Convoy:
  Armed Trawler
     British
       PCTrawler                 1   100%
  Corvette
     British
       any                       2    75%
  Auxiliary Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    70%
  Frigate / Sloop
     British
       any                       1    50%

Escort Skill:

   Elite:25% Veteran:25% Competent:50% 

OGEarly

Escorts for Convoy:
  Armed Trawler
     British
       PCTrawler                 2    50%
  Auxiliary Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    70%
  Frigate / Sloop
     British
       any                       1    30%
  Destroyer
     British
       any                       1    30%

Escort Skill:

   Elite:50% Veteran:25% Competent:25% 

HG

Escorts for Convoy:
  Corvette
     British
       any                       1   100%
  Frigate / Sloop
     British
       any                       2   100%
  Destroyer
     British
       any                       1    50%
  Light Cruiser
     British
       any                       1    75%

Escort Skill:

   Veteran:50% Competent:50% 

OGLate

Escorts for Convoy:
  Corvette
     British
       any                       2    75%
  Frigate / Sloop
     British
       any                       2   100%
  Destroyer
     British
       any                       1    50%

Escort Skill:

   Veteran:60% Competent:40%

[Oesten]

Originally Posted by jasonb885

Actually, my biggest disappointment is people won't actually look at the inventory before commenting.

I've reproduced the relevant sections below in a sloppy copy and paste. The actual inventory file, ImprovedConvoyInventory.txt, is far better formatted.

That file wasn't well formatted in my download of your mod - in fact it wasn't formatted at all.

[Oesten]

Originally Posted by jasonb885

The armed trawlers are set to elite. That's why you'll find some convoys with 25 or 50% elite. It's the trawlers bumping up the number of elites from 0 to 1 or 2. Trawlers are just about useless and sink while looking for you even in moderate seas, so I made them elite.

Looking at the numbers they might be a bit veteran heavy early in the war. OA and OB run into '41, so it's a tradeoff between being too easy early on or too easy later on. Flip a coin. Most of the other convoys stop by the end of '40 and are replaced with new definitions, so they can be reduced to, say, all competent, possibly.

How do the skill levels work?

Suppose you have 4 escort types listed for a convoy, 1 of each, e.g. one trawler, one corvette, one sloop, and one destroyer.

Then you have skill levels at: 33% elite, 33% veteran, 33% competent.

Does that mean that any escort out of the 4 has a 33% chance of being elite, a 33% chance of being veteran, and a 33% chance of being competent?

I don't see how you can say that the 33% elite applies only to the trawler.

[Oesten]

Originally Posted by jasonb885

Looking at the numbers they might be a bit veteran heavy early in the war. OA and OB run into '41, so it's a tradeoff between being too easy early on or too easy later on. Flip a coin. Most of the other convoys stop by the end of '40 and are replaced with new definitions, so they can be reduced to, say, all competent, possibly.

I can't see how it's realistically possible for any escort to be 'veteran' in 1939. How can they be combat veterans when the war has only just started? Training alone, no matter how good or how long, can't turn a crew into veterans. For a convoy that covers ONLY 1939, and no other year, the best escort available should be competent.

I'd agree with cutting down the number of veterans in 1940 as well. There would be one at least in each convoy, the lead escort would be a veteran ship. But the others would be merely competent.

Then in 1941 you have the rapid expansion of the Allied escort force. Many more escorts available than in 1940, but because the force has expanded so greatly, there's a very high proportion of new ships in there. And the new ships can't be more than competent. So again, the vast majority, say around 75%, of escorts in 1941 should be competent. Veterans generally only the lead escort.

From 1942, you can start to have a higher proportion of veterans, maybe about 33%. From 1943, maybe up to 50% veterans, then in 1944-45, 66-75% veterans.

Just my opinions, hope they are useful.

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by Oesten

That file wasn't well formatted in my download of your mod - in fact it wasn't formatted at all.

Sigh.

It's UNIX formatted. Just open it in WordPad, Word, or whatever.

Sigh.

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by Oesten

...
How do the skill levels work?

Suppose you have 4 escort types listed for a convoy, 1 of each, e.g. one trawler, one corvette, one sloop, and one destroyer.

Then you have skill levels at: 33% elite, 33% veteran, 33% competent.

Does that mean that any escort out of the 4 has a 33% chance of being elite, a 33% chance of being veteran, and a 33% chance of being competent?

I don't see how you can say that the 33% elite applies only to the trawler.

Correct, it's not obvious.

I internally assign elite to any armed trawler as a hack since they suck. So I can state as fact that the 33% of the escort that are elite are, in fact, the armed trawlers, because I am responsible for it. I also know in what proportions I assigned the competent and veteran components.

Due to rounding the numbers aren't always obvious.

If I have five escorts and make 50% of the competent, I might end up with either two or three competent escorts. I'd have to look at my code to see if I round up or down in that case. I honestly don't remember as it hasn't caused any significant issues thus far.

The skill breakdown for convoys without armed trawlers (i.e. mostly all of them) is far more representative as a result of the lack of forced-elite armed trawlers. While it's not immediately obvious if you look at the file, it ought to make more sense now that I've explained it.

So the early war convoys with armed trawlers are, in fact, not super-elite escorted convoys. The breakdown is just skewed because armed trawlers tend to really be worthless, even as elites. They're completely useless as competents.

Actually, the breakdown isn't the same as the spawn probability. When it's 50% veteran and 50% competent, it means out of, say, four escorts, two will be veteran and two will be competent. As it is a summary statistic only, obviously you can't tell from that information which specific escort will be competent or veteran. I didn't consider that level of detail necessary to determine if a convoy's escort is properly rated as a whole or not.

[Oesten]

Originally Posted by jasonb885

Sigh.

It's UNIX formatted. Just open it in WordPad, Word, or whatever.

Sigh.

I hope that 'sigh' wasn't intended to be a personal insult. I would find that distressing, on a usually polite forum like subsim.

Txt files on my system open in Notepad, which is why I thought the file wasn't formatted. And I've never heard of 'UNIX formatting' before. People on this forum may have different levels of computer literacy to you, but that's no reason to insult them.