Turkey shoots down Russian aircraft. - Page 9

Bilge_Rat · 11-30-15, 04:08 PM

I wonder why he is making that claim though. He sort loses whatever goodwill he gained in the West from the downing of the jet by making such dubious correlations.

I wonder if that is aimed at his domestic audience, maybe our Russian friends could comment.

Catfish · 11-30-15, 04:29 PM

^ Huh? What do you mean?

It is well known that Erdoghan supports Daesh, not officially of course. It is not Turkey per se, but his Erd. clan who does this very special business. And Erdoghan is trying to turn Turkey into a dictatorship, he suppresses the media and kills or imprisons anyone who dares to speak up against him. Make no mistake, Erdoghan is an egomanic dictator.

Erdoghan is against Assad, and he also is against the Kurds. Gassing Kurds back then together with Saddam, anyone remembers?
So Erdoghan of course suppports Daesh, they are no real threat against Turkey currently, since Erdoghan pays them for the oil delivered via those convoys; and what's more, Daesh kills Kurds.
So when Russia attacks some of those convoys with turkish drivers doing business for Erd., what do you think he will do?
Well, we just saw it.
I just wonder what "the West" does, down there. Obviously NOT attacking Daesh oil transports, at least we do not hear anything about that, not even propaganda (yet).
And if some lone crazy martyr not knowing the facts who lost his way explodes himself in Istanbul, it of course was a "kurdish" assassination (ask Erdgohan).

B.t.w. alot of turkish people are against Erdoghan, but any demonstration or critic is being suppressed. Turkey is on a very bad way, and no one should ever support this man. It makes me vomit to see Erdoghan being invited and flattered by european politicians. He is NOT the man who protects the West from Daesh.
We should first kick him out of Nato, take away any chance to join the EU, and then send him to Putin, personally, and alone.
And with another government and state of mind, we can then think of getting Turkey aboard. Later.

[/rant]

Bilge_Rat · 11-30-15, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

We should first kick him out of Nato,

Not sure about that, if the Turks are crazy enough to confront the Russians head on, they could prove useful allies if we ever do get into a "Hot" war.

mapuc · 11-30-15, 06:34 PM

If I remember correctly Putin said they are not going to start a war because of this, but what if Turkey sees these things Russia has implemented to wards Turkey as an act of war or trying to make Turkey to fire the next shot.

Edit these implemented things Russia has made to wards Turkey must be some kind of economical warfare

Markus

Oberon · 11-30-15, 10:04 PM

Nah, I doubt Erdogan would go that far for the next step, the next step is likely to be either Russia knocking down a Turkish jet that is stupid enough to wander into Syrian airspace, or the Turkmen forces suddenly becoming equipped with M48 tanks and Turkish SAMs and Anti-aircraft guns.

August · 11-30-15, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

I just wonder what "the West" does, down there. Obviously NOT attacking Daesh oil transports, at least we do not hear anything about that, not even propaganda (yet).

Actually they have...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/wo...-oil.html?_r=0

ikalugin · 12-01-15, 09:27 AM

The oil truck thing is actually fairly competetive now. Both Russia and Western Coalition bomb that stuff now.

Schroeder · 12-01-15, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

The oil truck thing is actually fairly competetive now. Both Russia and Western Coalition bomb that stuff now.

It's about high time.

But DAESH has also other means of making money. German journalists discovered that they are selling slaves (mainly Yazidi women) to whoever wants them. The deals are often arranged in Turkey while the Turkish secret service looks the other way.

EU membership candidate my arm!!!
It makes me want to throw up when I see how our politicians still court these gangsters.

Catfish · 12-01-15, 02:05 PM

Quote:

The deals are often arranged in Turkey while the Turkish secret service looks the other way.

So they are now selling kurdish women of Yazidi belief, with turkish approval.
Who buys slaves? Maybe our good friends from Saudi Arabia?

Schroeder · 12-01-15, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

So they are now selling kurdish women of Yazidi belief, with turkish approval.
Who buys slaves? Maybe our good friends from Saudi Arabia?

Often times their family members try to buy them back if they have the funds.
The rest....who knows. Daesh fighters can buy them as well.

On a different note NATO's own Mr. Stoltenberg has just announced that NATO will improve Turkey's air defenses against those highly dangerous Russian aircraft that would surely have nuked Mr. Erdoghan if they could just have reached a little deeper into Turkish airspace.

Am I surrounded by idiots or am I the idiot (or both...)?

Jimbuna · 12-01-15, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Am I surrounded by idiots or am I the idiot (or both...)?

Debatable...at best

Schroeder · 12-01-15, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Debatable...at best

To clarify I meant surrounded by idiot politicians...

Bilge_Rat · 12-01-15, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

On a different note NATO's own Mr. Stoltenberg has just announced that NATO will improve Turkey's air defenses

Call me overly cynical, but I suspect that is just a sneaky way to get more US/EU aircraft onto Turkish bases to attack ISIS.

"Sure we will defend your Air Space and maybe while we're at it we will pounce on those ISIS Oil convoys trying to sneak across your border"

The US has been pressing Turkey to allow the coalition to use Turkish bases, but Turkey only gave the OK to use Incirlik Air Base a few months back.

Turkey is not the easiest ally to deal with, their Air Force still spends most of its time bombing the Kurds.

Catfish · 12-01-15, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

... Russian aircraft that would surely have nuked Mr. Erdoghan if they could just have reached a little deeper into Turkish airspace.

Hmm, not a bad idea ...

Commander Wallace · 12-02-15, 11:12 AM

One thing to consider. Turkey maintains control of the Dardanelle straits, the Sea of Marmara and the Bosporus These are essentially waterways in Turkey connecting the Aegean Sea and the Mediterranean to the Black Sea.
Control of these routes of passage was granted to Turkey under the 1936 Montreux Convention .
This convention has always been a source of tension between Russia and Turkey . Stalin himself chaffed at Turkish control of the straits . In negotiations of the non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union, Stalin indicated a desire to take control of the straits in exchange for the signing of the non aggression pact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montre...of_the_Straits

Russia sends supplies from it's Novorossiysk naval base in the Black Sea to Russian ports in Tartus and Latakia. Russian vessels have enjoyed passage through the straits but Russian flagged vessels are now said to " wait for hours " before being allowed passage .

Logistically speaking, If Russia can't resupply their forces, then what. I'm sure supplies could be airlifted in but still. The question is, how important are the straits to Russia with regards to resupply of their forces in Syria ? How much of their economy in the form of cargo ships pass through those straits ?

If Turkey believes or considers itself in imminent danger of attack, Turkey can legally close or restrict access to those waterways Under article 20 and 21 of the Montreux convention.

The following is taken from the pages of the convention signed in 1936 .

TRADUCTION - TRANSLATION CONVENTION REGARDING THE

REGIME OF THE STRAITS SIGNED AT MONTREUX, JULY 20 TH, 1936

French official text communicated by the Permanent Delegate of Turkey to the League of Nations.

The registration of this Convention took place December 11th, 1936.

HIS MAJESTY

Article 19.

In time of war, Turkey not being belligerent, warships shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and

navigation through the Straits under the same conditions as those laid down in Article 10 to 18.

Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not however, pass through the Straits except in

cases arising out of the application of Article 25 of the present Convention, and in cases of assistance

rendered to a State victim of aggression in virtue of a treaty of mutual assistance binding-Turkey,

concluded within the framework of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and registered and

published in accordance with the provisions of Article 18 of the Covenant.

In the exceptional cases provided for in the preceding paragraph, the limitations laid down in Article 10

to 18 of the present Convention shall not be applicable.

Notwithstanding the prohibition of passage laid down in paragraph 2 above, vessels of war belonging

to belligerent Powers, whether they are Black Sea Powers or not, which have become separated from

their bases, may return thereto.

Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not make any capture, exercise the right of visit

and search, or carry out any hostile act in the Straits.

Article 20.

In time of war, Turkey being belligerent, the provisions of Articles 10 to 18 shall not be applicable; the

passage of warships shall be left entirely to the discretion of the Turkish Government.

Article 21.

Should Turkey consider herself to be threatened with imminent danger of war she shall have the right

to apply the provisions of Article 20 of the present Convention.

Vessels which have passed through the Straits before Turkey has made use of the powers conferred

upon her by the preceding paragraph, and which thus find themselves separated from their bases,

may return thereto. It is, however, understood that Turkey may deny this right to vessels of war

belonging to the State whose attitude has given rise to the application of the present Article.

Should the Turkish Government make use of the powers conferred by the first paragraph of the

present Article, a notification to that effect shall be addressed to the High Contracting Parties and to

the Secretary-General of the League of Nations.

If the Council of the League of Nations decide by a majority of two-thirds that the measures thus taken

by Turkey are not justified, and if such should also be the opinion of the majority of the High

Contracting Parties signatories to the present Convention, the Turkish Government undertakes to

discontinue the measures in question as also any measures which may have been taken under Article

6 of the present Convention.

11-30-15, 04:08 PM	#121
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	I wonder why he is making that claim though. He sort loses whatever goodwill he gained in the West from the downing of the jet by making such dubious correlations. I wonder if that is aimed at his domestic audience, maybe our Russian friends could comment. __________________

11-30-15, 04:29 PM	#122
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,776 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ Huh? What do you mean? It is well known that Erdoghan supports Daesh, not officially of course. It is not Turkey per se, but his Erd. clan who does this very special business. And Erdoghan is trying to turn Turkey into a dictatorship, he suppresses the media and kills or imprisons anyone who dares to speak up against him. Make no mistake, Erdoghan is an egomanic dictator. Erdoghan is against Assad, and he also is against the Kurds. Gassing Kurds back then together with Saddam, anyone remembers? So Erdoghan of course suppports Daesh, they are no real threat against Turkey currently, since Erdoghan pays them for the oil delivered via those convoys; and what's more, Daesh kills Kurds. So when Russia attacks some of those convoys with turkish drivers doing business for Erd., what do you think he will do? Well, we just saw it. I just wonder what "the West" does, down there. Obviously NOT attacking Daesh oil transports, at least we do not hear anything about that, not even propaganda (yet). And if some lone crazy martyr not knowing the facts who lost his way explodes himself in Istanbul, it of course was a "kurdish" assassination (ask Erdgohan). B.t.w. alot of turkish people are against Erdoghan, but any demonstration or critic is being suppressed. Turkey is on a very bad way, and no one should ever support this man. It makes me vomit to see Erdoghan being invited and flattered by european politicians. He is NOT the man who protects the West from Daesh. We should first kick him out of Nato, take away any chance to join the EU, and then send him to Putin, personally, and alone. And with another government and state of mind, we can then think of getting Turkey aboard. Later. [/rant] __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 11-30-15 at 04:35 PM.*

12-01-15, 09:27 AM	#127
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	The oil truck thing is actually fairly competetive now. Both Russia and Western Coalition bomb that stuff now. __________________ Grumpy as always.

12-02-15, 11:12 AM	#135
Commander Wallace Navy Seal Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Under the sea in an Octupus garden in the shade Posts: 5,315 Downloads: 366 Uploads: 0	One thing to consider. Turkey maintains control of the Dardanelle straits, the Sea of Marmara and the Bosporus These are essentially waterways in Turkey connecting the Aegean Sea and the Mediterranean to the Black Sea. Control of these routes of passage was granted to Turkey under the 1936 Montreux Convention . This convention has always been a source of tension between Russia and Turkey . Stalin himself chaffed at Turkish control of the straits . In negotiations of the non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union, Stalin indicated a desire to take control of the straits in exchange for the signing of the non aggression pact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montre...of_the_Straits Russia sends supplies from it's Novorossiysk naval base in the Black Sea to Russian ports in Tartus and Latakia. Russian vessels have enjoyed passage through the straits but Russian flagged vessels are now said to " wait for hours " before being allowed passage . Logistically speaking, If Russia can't resupply their forces, then what. I'm sure supplies could be airlifted in but still. The question is, how important are the straits to Russia with regards to resupply of their forces in Syria ? How much of their economy in the form of cargo ships pass through those straits ? If Turkey believes or considers itself in imminent danger of attack, Turkey can legally close or restrict access to those waterways Under article 20 and 21 of the Montreux convention. The following is taken from the pages of the convention signed in 1936 . TRADUCTION - TRANSLATION CONVENTION REGARDING THE REGIME OF THE STRAITS SIGNED AT MONTREUX, JULY 20 TH, 1936 French official text communicated by the Permanent Delegate of Turkey to the League of Nations. The registration of this Convention took place December 11th, 1936. HIS MAJESTY Article 19. In time of war, Turkey not being belligerent, warships shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and navigation through the Straits under the same conditions as those laid down in Article 10 to 18. Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not however, pass through the Straits except in cases arising out of the application of Article 25 of the present Convention, and in cases of assistance rendered to a State victim of aggression in virtue of a treaty of mutual assistance binding-Turkey, concluded within the framework of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and registered and published in accordance with the provisions of Article 18 of the Covenant. In the exceptional cases provided for in the preceding paragraph, the limitations laid down in Article 10 to 18 of the present Convention shall not be applicable. Notwithstanding the prohibition of passage laid down in paragraph 2 above, vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers, whether they are Black Sea Powers or not, which have become separated from their bases, may return thereto. Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not make any capture, exercise the right of visit and search, or carry out any hostile act in the Straits. Article 20. In time of war, Turkey being belligerent, the provisions of Articles 10 to 18 shall not be applicable; the passage of warships shall be left entirely to the discretion of the Turkish Government. Article 21. Should Turkey consider herself to be threatened with imminent danger of war she shall have the right to apply the provisions of Article 20 of the present Convention. Vessels which have passed through the Straits before Turkey has made use of the powers conferred upon her by the preceding paragraph, and which thus find themselves separated from their bases, may return thereto. It is, however, understood that Turkey may deny this right to vessels of war belonging to the State whose attitude has given rise to the application of the present Article. Should the Turkish Government make use of the powers conferred by the first paragraph of the present Article, a notification to that effect shall be addressed to the High Contracting Parties and to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations. If the Council of the League of Nations decide by a majority of two-thirds that the measures thus taken by Turkey are not justified, and if such should also be the opinion of the majority of the High Contracting Parties signatories to the present Convention, the Turkish Government undertakes to discontinue the measures in question as also any measures which may have been taken under Article 6 of the present Convention. Last edited by Commander Wallace; 12-02-15 at 11:59 AM.

11-30-15, 06:34 PM	#124
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,541 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	If I remember correctly Putin said they are not going to start a war because of this, but what if Turkey sees these things Russia has implemented to wards Turkey as an act of war or trying to make Turkey to fire the next shot. Edit these implemented things Russia has made to wards Turkey must be some kind of economical warfare Markus

11-30-15, 10:04 PM	#125
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Nah, I doubt Erdogan would go that far for the next step, the next step is likely to be either Russia knocking down a Turkish jet that is stupid enough to wander into Syrian airspace, or the Turkmen forces suddenly becoming equipped with M48 tanks and Turkish SAMs and Anti-aircraft guns.