Looking To Buy My First Rifle... - Page 9

07-15-11, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Which one?

The one of nonsense Hotentot.
It was exactly the same pattern in the "fitness" topic.

Stealhead · 07-15-11, 01:30 PM

Shotguns are pretty good but as some have said I'd go with either a traditional like Duc or the style that has a pistol grip and stock I find pistol grip only to be too strong of recoil you need your shoulder to absorb some of that recoil and allow you to require the line of sight again with just a pistol all the recoil goes into your arm and the barrel raises much.Also forget the Hollywood myth that you dont need to aim a shotgun you do trust me I have tried that fire from the hip and missed a target at only 15 yards one that I'd have nailed if aiming.
There is a video of a solider shooting a pistol grip 12 guage I will post it if I can find it as it shows just how strong the recoil is even to a infantryman.

here is one but not the one I was looking for:

Anthony W. · 07-15-11, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Anthony, I'm curious: have you ever been in a situation, where someone has directly threatened your life with more than just words?

Several times

I got jumped by a group of thugs last year walking to my car from a competition - they took my sports coat and my wallet - which - thankfully didn't have much in it.

I was in my car and one of the other cars at the light chased me all the way to the police station

Platapus · 07-15-11, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

As for non lethal, i have thought long and hard about a bean bag round.

As have I. I am split

1. I was taught that you do not fire a gun at someone unless you have already made the decision to kill them. If that decision is not made, don't shoot.

2. I can appreciate the advantages of having a live burglar. At the trial a live burglar can always be asked "exactly what were you doing in his house at 0300?" I have read instances where juries may appreciate an initial non-lethal round first as it shows that you considered a lower level of force.

I like item 1 but I also see the wisdom of item 2.

I once had a LE friend of mine tell me: "Never forget that in your self-defense trial, your future will be decided by a jury who was not there, did not experience what you experienced, may have no idea of that experience, and has plenty of time to consider what a 'reasonable person' would do."

There was wisdom in those words too.

I currently do not have any non-lethal rounds, but am considering buying a few. Still torn. I can appreciate both arguments on this one.

Ducimus · 07-15-11, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

As have I. I am split

1. I was taught that you do not fire a gun at someone unless you have already made the decision to kill them. If that decision is not made, don't shoot.

2. I can appreciate the advantages of having a live burglar. At the trial a live burglar can always be asked "exactly what were you doing in his house at 0300?" I have read instances where juries may appreciate an initial non-lethal round first as it shows that you considered a lower level of force.

I like item 1 but I also see the wisdom of item 2.

I once had a LE friend of mine tell me: "Never forget that in your self-defense trial, your future will be decided by a jury who was not there, did not experience what you experienced, may have no idea of that experience, and has plenty of time to consider what a 'reasonable person' would do."

There was wisdom in those words too.

I currently do not have any non-lethal rounds, but am considering buying a few. Still torn. I can appreciate both arguments on this one.

Well the effectiveness of something like a bean bag around will differ on the individual.

See here:

As for the argument, number one is, can you leave a round in the chamber?
The lady in my house, is unquestionably uncomfortable with that. So, i can't.

Should I leave a round in the chamber?
I think so. A situation where your forced to use a gun will happen fast. You might only have time enough to disengage the saftey, point, and fire. Arming yourself should have as few counts to its movement as possible IMO.

So in my situation, given what my spouse is comfortable with, a less lethal round is sort of a compromise. Also in my case, it may be a moot point. I know myself well enough to know that once ive made the decision to shoot, and i start firing, i don't stop racking rounds until whatever im shooting at stops moving. I can pump out 3 rounds really fast.

An alternative to a non lethal round could be a dove load. say, a number 9 shot in a low base shell. However, i'm pretty sure that at a close enough range, that will kill too. Regardess if it kills or not, it WILL produce a NASTY wound.

Stealhead · 07-15-11, 05:22 PM

Personally I think that the bean bag round should be called less than lethal not non-lethal because if it hits the wrong part of the body it can kill or cause serious injury.

My brother in law is a deputy sheriff here in Florida and while it varies from car to car some have just an M-4 others have a shotty and M-4(rarely) and still others have an M-4 and a bean bag shotty that has an orange stock and pump.The reason they are orange is so that there is no confusion that it is a bean bag shotgun they do not put other shells in the orange guns and no bean bags are allowed in the normal lethal shotguns.

My brother explained to me that some officers get extensive training on how and when to and when not to use bean bags do to their less than lethal nature.Put simply the bean bag rounds can kill or seriously injure if they hit you at to close of range of course they might not it just all depends I'd say in a self defense situation you are apt to use them incorrectly and that is a no go if you are danger. Also they show the videos where the guy goes down pretty easy from the bags.My brother once saw a guy take 6 of them and still resist so they tazed him instead this man was not on drugs or drunk either just riled up.

I'd say to Duci not to bother with the bean bag rounds you might as well just use your lethal loads.Police use those bean bags in very controlled situations when they are trying to save the person being "shots" life never in a self defense situation.

07-15-11, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Regardess if it kills or not, it WILL produce a NASTY wound.

I've seen People with entire Limbs blown off kill others before they passout or die from a wound.

Better to be Judged by 12 then Carried by 6 I say.
If one is worried about the possible legal out come from a Gun Battle in the Home?
Just build a safe room and hide away in that.
The cost is not that great a difference if you do it with some fore thought.

Krauter · 07-15-11, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The one of nonsense Hotentot.
It was exactly the same pattern in the "fitness" topic.

Aye I was seeing it as well but didn't know if I should stir the pot some or let it stagnate

Stealhead · 07-15-11, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krauter

Aye I was seeing it as well but didn't know if I should stir the pot some or let it stagnate

I like to stir it myself.Why not, it is likely an "outlet" if you know what I mean.And you can still have a useful discussion as well.

Anthony W. · 07-15-11, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by privateer

I've seen People with entire Limbs blown off kill others before they passout or die from a wound.

Better to be Judged by 12 then Carried by 6 I say.
If one is worried about the possible legal out come from a Gun Battle in the Home?
Just build a safe room and hide away in that.
The cost is not that great a difference if you do it with some fore thought.

Where I live, all you have to do is prove that they broke in. Doesn't matter if they were armed or not - if they break in - shoot first - ask later.

07-15-11, 05:55 PM

Ohio has pretty much the same thought.
If they are breaking in it's not going to be good.
So dusting them is A-O.K.
But just for that Jury that may be a bit touchy on wasteing a perp?
Keep an untraceable throw away to place in his dead hand!
A simple knife is good enuff.

Stealhead · 07-15-11, 05:59 PM

Yeah but if they are the kind of man that privateer mentioned and they keep going at you with their arm chopped of you had better man up like Harry Callahan have one more round.

You live in Ohio correct? I dont read your law to saw what you claim it is much like the Florida law where the person must enter your house(or car) and be clearly intending to cause bodily harm other wise you cannot shoot them.Though this could be hard to know for sure in most situations.

07-15-11, 06:24 PM

Ohio - 2901.05 Burden of proof - reasonable doubt - self-defense
covers the Home invasion senario.

(B)(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.

Granted some areas of Ohio (Bigger Ciities) may be a bit picky on this subject.
In my area? You'd probably never go to trial.

About 3 weeks after the Home invasion someone was beating on my door at 4 in the morning.
I looked out the window but did not see anyone.
So I went out the back door and circled the house.
Imagine my surprise and the Local Sheriff's Deputy's surprise as I stuck my Browing 9mm in his face!!

It was dark and I literally grabbed him by the shirt and planted him on the hood of his Crusier before He or I realized what the heck was happening!

It was a misunderstanding over a runaway from another Town 20 miles away.
And they did agree to NEVER bang on my door like that again without just cause!!

The County did a bang up job putting the Guilty in prison from the Invasion.
And I did become friends with many of the Deputies dureing and after that time.

But they still approach my Home in a careful way!!

Ducimus · 07-15-11, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by privateer

I've seen People with entire Limbs blown off kill others before they passout or die from a wound.

Better to be Judged by 12 then Carried by 6 I say.
If one is worried about the possible legal out come from a Gun Battle in the Home?
Just build a safe room and hide away in that.
The cost is not that great a difference if you do it with some fore thought.

Well, the reason i say a dove load would leave a nasty wound is because ive seen what those rounds will do, only on inanimate objects. They can do more damage then you'd think.

As for legality's. Im not worried about that. Most states have a castle law. California does, as does Utah.

The only reason i would consider non lethal rounds is to appease the wife to be. If i had my way, id have the weapon charged, and ready to rock. But that makes her uncomfortable and she's also thinking down the line when we have kids. So i have to compromise.

07-15-11, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Well, the reason i say a dove load would leave a nasty wound is because ive seen what those rounds will do, only on inanimate objects. They can do more damage then you'd think.

As for legality's. Im not worried about that. Most states have a castle law. California does, as does Utah.

The only reason i would consider non lethal rounds is to appease the wife to be. If i had my way, id have the weapon charged, and ready to rock. But that makes her uncomfortable and she's also thinking down the line when we have kids. So i have to compromise.

I totally understand the wife issue.
That's why no Fire Arms were here when they were needed.
The wife just hated them and did not even want an unloaded one in the house!
As we live in a podunk kind of place?
I was O.K. with that.
I can walk to the other side of this Village in minutes for God's sake.
Naked and not get much more then a chuckle!
What could happen, right?
We are the only ones to suffer this type Crime here as far back as records go.
It was because of stupid kids and a Dumb Girl Friend thing!
Had I been here when the Thugs showed up?
Bodies would have been taken away in multiple parts!!

When I spoke at the sentencing of those captured, I made it clear......
I WILL execute (that is the exact term I used!) anyone of those convicted
should they seek revenge when released from prison.

2 were sent back to prison because they made remarks in Bars to other family members about revenge.
I tend to believe that they were sent back by the Court so I would not handle them.

They have never mentioned revenge since.........
(I do have contacts inside of the prisons they were in by the way)

07-15-11, 01:30 PM	#122
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Shotguns are pretty good but as some have said I'd go with either a traditional like Duc or the style that has a pistol grip and stock I find pistol grip only to be too strong of recoil you need your shoulder to absorb some of that recoil and allow you to require the line of sight again with just a pistol all the recoil goes into your arm and the barrel raises much.Also forget the Hollywood myth that you dont need to aim a shotgun you do trust me I have tried that fire from the hip and missed a target at only 15 yards one that I'd have nailed if aiming. There is a video of a solider shooting a pistol grip 12 guage I will post it if I can find it as it shows just how strong the recoil is even to a infantryman. here is one but not the one I was looking for:

07-15-11, 05:22 PM	#126
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Personally I think that the bean bag round should be called less than lethal not non-lethal because if it hits the wrong part of the body it can kill or cause serious injury. My brother in law is a deputy sheriff here in Florida and while it varies from car to car some have just an M-4 others have a shotty and M-4(rarely) and still others have an M-4 and a bean bag shotty that has an orange stock and pump.The reason they are orange is so that there is no confusion that it is a bean bag shotgun they do not put other shells in the orange guns and no bean bags are allowed in the normal lethal shotguns. My brother explained to me that some officers get extensive training on how and when to and when not to use bean bags do to their less than lethal nature.Put simply the bean bag rounds can kill or seriously injure if they hit you at to close of range of course they might not it just all depends I'd say in a self defense situation you are apt to use them incorrectly and that is a no go if you are danger. Also they show the videos where the guy goes down pretty easy from the bags.My brother once saw a guy take 6 of them and still resist so they tazed him instead this man was not on drugs or drunk either just riled up. I'd say to Duci not to bother with the bean bag rounds you might as well just use your lethal loads.Police use those bean bags in very controlled situations when they are trying to save the person being "shots" life never in a self defense situation.

07-15-11, 05:55 PM	#131
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Ohio has pretty much the same thought. If they are breaking in it's not going to be good. So dusting them is A-O.K. But just for that Jury that may be a bit touchy on wasteing a perp? Keep an untraceable throw away to place in his dead hand! A simple knife is good enuff.

07-15-11, 05:59 PM	#132
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Yeah but if they are the kind of man that privateer mentioned and they keep going at you with their arm chopped of you had better man up like Harry Callahan have one more round. You live in Ohio correct? I dont read your law to saw what you claim it is much like the Florida law where the person must enter your house(or car) and be clearly intending to cause bodily harm other wise you cannot shoot them.Though this could be hard to know for sure in most situations.

07-15-11, 06:24 PM	#133
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Ohio - 2901.05 Burden of proof - reasonable doubt - self-defense covers the Home invasion senario. (B)(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force. Granted some areas of Ohio (Bigger Ciities) may be a bit picky on this subject. In my area? You'd probably never go to trial. About 3 weeks after the Home invasion someone was beating on my door at 4 in the morning. I looked out the window but did not see anyone. So I went out the back door and circled the house. Imagine my surprise and the Local Sheriff's Deputy's surprise as I stuck my Browing 9mm in his face!! It was dark and I literally grabbed him by the shirt and planted him on the hood of his Crusier before He or I realized what the heck was happening! It was a misunderstanding over a runaway from another Town 20 miles away. And they did agree to NEVER bang on my door like that again without just cause!! The County did a bang up job putting the Guilty in prison from the Invasion. And I did become friends with many of the Deputies dureing and after that time. But they still approach my Home in a careful way!!