US fleet boats - best frontline sub of ww2?

[tater]

I knew there had to be a trade off... that would be interesting to see. I'm curious though if the exceptional dive times of the u-boats came with more risk of that than the slower, but perhaps "safer" 10 degree dive used by the USN.

Then you get a game like SH, and they codify the u-boat fast times, but with none of the downsides, and codify the slower fleet boat times, with none of the increase in "safety" (no chance of sticking the props out).

Learn something new every day

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by tater

Tench schemes 2 and 3 are listed with TEST depths of 1000', BTW. So the US could have easily modified Balao/Tench to go as deep as any u-boat, looks like.

I am not sure were you are getting your information, but the Tench class test depth was officially 400 feet. The Bureau of Ships designed a safety factor into the hulls of 1.5. That means the the theoretical crush depth of a Balao/Tench class boat was 600 feet. However, practical experience showed that this figure proved to be extremely cautious. As previously noted, the USS Chopper went to 1000 feet and survived. Dick O'Kane took the Tang to 612 feet on trials with no ill effect at all. So what is the true crush depth of a Balao/Tench? No one really knows for sure. Naval architects are a cautious bunch for very good reasons. I would be comfortable taking a Balao/Tench to 500 feet on a routine basis, and to 700 feet if my life depended on it. But to take it much below that would be foolish in the extreme.

Dave

www.pigboats.com

[tater]

It's listed like that in Friedman.

[DaveyJ576]

Tater,

I apologize if my previous post seemed a little harsh. That was not my intention. Subtlety of expression in these forums can be difficult at times.

Norman Friedman's book, U.S. Submarines through 1945 has a table on page 311 which lists the characteristics of several classes of submarines. The test depth for the Tench class is listed as 400 feet. Schemes 2 and 3 are listed next. These were proposals for follow on classes that were never built. The figure of 1000 is listed in the test depth column. However, the 1000 has an asterisk next to it. Checking the preface for the data tables, it clearly states that any depth figure listed with an asterisk denotes collapse depth.

Test depth: The depth at which a submarine can routinely operate without damage to the hull or associated piping systems.

Collapse (or crush) depth: The theoretical depth at which the submarine hull will fail due to water pressure.

In Table 12-3 on page 250, Friedman lists the operating (test) depth of the SS-475 (USS Argonaut) as 450 feet and the collapse depth of 750 feet. Proposed Design A and B had a test depth of 500 feet and a collapse depth of 800 feet.

Norman Friedman is a very reliable author. However, his writing style is very choppy and academic and is sometimes hard to follow.

Interesting fact: The internal watertight bulkheads of these boats were built to a different standard. Their thickness was reduced to reduce the overall weight of the boat. They would give way at 450 feet. This means that if a boat suffered battle damage and had a compartment completely flooded, the bulkhead separating it from the rest of the interior of the boat would collapse at 450 feet causing the loss of the boat.

The devil is in the details!

Dave

www.pigboats.com

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

You have to be really careful with large down angles when submerging. Much greater than 10 degrees and you risk sticking the props out of the water. You have to remember that these boats were mostly driven under by the combined effects of the diving planes and propulsion. Stick the props out of the water and you eliminate the effect of propulsion and greatly slow the dive times.

Not to mention rev the heck out of some pretty delicate motors that are designed to function under a normal prop loat. Take all the load off and I imagine bad things happen. Although you might have to really work at it to lift the stern out of water, it could be plenty embarrassing if you did!:rotfl:

[tater]

I didn't take it that way in the least, just typed a short answer. I really don't get bent out of shape on forums easily, I treat it all as if we're talking over beers (which I'd be more than happy to do should you find yourself in albuquerque)

I just skimmed, and assumed that those to "Schemes" were sub-versions of Tench—my bad! (I saw the * on them, but there was no footnote for that).

I should add that I only got Friedman in the last few weeks, and have not had time to do more than glance at it.

<S>

tater

[DaveyJ576]

To all:

At the risk of giving myself a self-promotional plug, check out the following link:

http://pigboats.com/dave3.html

The books listed here are the ones that I use most often to do my research. There is a lot of junk info out there so you have to be kind of careful. These books are excellent and quite reliable.

Dave

www.pigboats.com

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by tater

So the fleet could have crash dived considerably fast with no more change than a differently trained skipper giving the orders. What was a u-boat crash dive angle?

This is why I love the ONI manuals:

[Samu*]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

This is becoming fruitless as many just outright ignore facts.

Fact: German U-boats had an advanced welded hull construction. Not the Type VII nor any other WWII boat had Rivets. See my post above on the type VII's evolution from the WW1 UB III

Fact: German U-boats have on a few occasions exceeded 300 meters depth and a couple of times by a scary margine. 300 meters is 984.5 feet. The type VIIC\41 had a thicker Pressure hull and could go deeper than any other U-boat.

Fact:The U-boats sank 3,476 merchant vessals during WW2 with the peak in 1942.

Fact: Admiral Doenitz had wanted 300 U-boats to go to war with England. He had stated that any less would make a blockade of England near imposable.
When WWII broke out he had 57 and of those the majority were the small coastal boats! Only 27 were sea boats available to blockade England.

So one could equate tha it wasnt that the tool wasnt right for the job just that there were not enough tools to do the job right in the first place.

So speed goes to the fleet boats surface and underwater.
# of torpedo tubes goes to the fleet boats.
Dive time goes to the U-boats
Depth goes to the U-Boats
Resource alotment goes to the U-boats both in men and materials
Tonnage sunk goes to the U-boats
Technolegy goes both ways. Defensive Fleet boats. Offensive U-boats.

The fact of the matter is that Germany needed the numbers more than any other factor to make a differance in 1939' 40' 41'. Those needed numbers never materialised but they put to damn good use what they did have available in that time period.

That would make a larger differance than to make a fleet boat equivelant when they could make two Type VII's for every fleet boat.

This topic has lack facts since these über patriotic fellas came here with their refrigerators and A/C systems as a mandatory when comparing what WW2 -era fighting vehicle were better When discussing about WW2 era whit a true Yank, especially about Axis innovations versus Allied ones, he will 9 times out of 10 take this arrogant attitude "our stuff were ultimately better than their stuff ever was". And that very arrogance makes me sick.
The very same narrowminded deduction that has been proven wrong when comparing armour technology, rifles like german StG assault rifles, aviation technology, gun optics, etc.
When someone i.e states that 15 sec difference (31-32 sec over 46-47 sec!!) doesn't matter at all when talking about WW2 -era sub diving time, hes only one whos having the blindfold over hes eyes.

These super intellectuent peoples around here should tell why there were over 100 ex-Axis engineers and scientist at your Apollo -program? And why someone called Werner was one of the leading figures there, especially when designin the Saturn V -rocket that, if I'm not wrong, is being used still? Really the ultimate bashing of anykind of Axis -side engineering or achievements during 1930s and 1940s just tells how narrowminded and biased the judger is...

I'm quite sure that IF the German would have fought at the Pacific theatre against similar anti-sub -gadgets (or lack of em..) that Japs had, their U-boat design would have been very very different. And vice versa about U.S subs at Atlantic theatre against similar danger that Allies posed there.

Seems like the majority of these patriotic fellas here doesn't want to remember anything good that Axis had, did or achieved. No matter if it was at land, air or sea. For example some performance figures that the XXI -class carried. The technology and basic design that was used decade(s) after the war. Not something as extraordinary as i.e. ME 262, but when compared to the majority of Axis subs, XXI's characteristics were a huge leap forward. Germans surely had the engineers, the scientists and the knowhow through the WW2. Only thing that they were missing was the recourses.

[Rockin Robbins]

Sheesh, where'd that goose-stepping salute come from? The fact is U-Boats sank less than 1% of Allied ships during the war. The fact is that the vaunted homing torpedo hit 1/10 of the targets it was shot at, where the Cutie, crippled as it was hit 33%. The fact is that the German U-Boat didn't take enough weaponry to sea to do anything more than die and make an artificial reef with. The fact is that US submarine radar DID render a 15 second dive time difference irrelevent. The fact is that reskinned fleet boats with no modifications to drive systems outperformed the unproven Type XXI boat, whose reliability was never established.

The fact is that US submarines won their war in the Pacific while Germany lost in part BECAUSE U-Boats were helping defeat them by bringing unbeatable foes into the war. The US and Britain didn't have to be part of the fight. U-Boats made their enmity unavoidable and so caused the defeat of Germany. How good the boats were technically was irrelevent. How gallant their men were was irrelevent. All that technical excellence (while not as technically excellent as the fleet boat) and all that gallantry actually contributed to the defeat of the Germany who foolishly squandered them for an obviously impossible task.

By the way, the Saturn V rocket hasn't flown since well before you were born. I personally watched every Saturn V that ever flew, and not on television.

[tater]

In response to saluting the SS:

There is no honor in loyalty to evil. None at all.

[Rockin Robbins]

And the German submariners themselves were the first and loudest to say it. They HATE Das Boot and Iron Coffins because they do not speak for those who know better. There was no heroism there, only capitulation to evil. A hero would have left Germany in the mid 1930's. Many did. Now wannabe Nazis worship at the altar of a petty sandbox bully whose proudest achievement was the destruction of the world's cultural and scientific pinnacle, the home of Goethe, Schumann, Hermann Hesse and Albert Einstein. They would all have been ashamed of the "honor" of the SS. You need not be patriotic to any but Germany to see that as truth.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Samu*

These super intellectuent peoples around here should tell why there were over 100 ex-Axis engineers and scientist at your Apollo -program? And why someone called Werner was one of the leading figures there, especially when designin the Saturn V -rocket that, if I'm not wrong, is being used still?

We brought them here to the US to keep them out of Soviet hands. Duh!

[tater]

True, the Soviets only advanced quickly by stealing, so we had to keep the Germans out of the CCCP. As many as possible, anyway. NASA would have done fine without them... the Soviets, OTOH.

Look at that pinnacle of Soviet aircraft design, the Tu-4

Or their A-bomb, for that matter (thank you, Fuchs).

tater

[Nephandus]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

And the German submariners themselves were the first and loudest to say it. They HATE Das Boot and Iron Coffins because they do not speak for those who know better. There was no heroism there, only capitulation to evil. A hero would have left Germany in the mid 1930's. Many did. Now wannabe Nazis worship at the altar of a petty sandbox bully whose proudest achievement was the destruction of the world's cultural and scientific pinnacle, the home of Goethe, Schumann, Hermann Hesse and Albert Einstein. They would all have been ashamed of the "honor" of the SS. You need not be patriotic to any but Germany to see that as truth.

It was just a matter of time until Godwin's Law came into action in this thread... sheesh...

I am actually a bit tired of "America's better than you are" comparisons coming into existence by leaving out several facts that would prove uncomfortable...

For example.... percentage values look really nice since German percentages are lower than the US ones.... however in raw numbers German U-Boats still sank triple of tonnage compared to US boats... and that against two opponents highly developled in anti-submarine tactics and one oppenent being quite an expert in mass-producing freighters. That turned the war in the Atlantic into a war of attrition. And since the US produced freighters faster than the Germans could sink them, the equasion was in favour of the allies.

Now the funny thing about the aftermath of WW 2 is that the Americans wasn't so discriminating once it got to securing the spoils of war... like dividing up German submarines of all types... Russia, UK and US each took 6 of them for studying... and the funny thing is... almost all following sub types bore resemblance to a German sub of a later type (you know which).

Also a fact worth mentioning.... the hailed scientist who made Mercury, Gemini and Apollo possible was Wernher von Braun... the same von Braun who kept developing and building V2 Rocket for the Nazis until the day the war was over. It was known he was a Nazi... using Jews in Dora-Mittelbau building those things under abhorrend conditions. The US authorities chose it would be wiser to purge all his records of his Nazi past.

Jet technology wasn't that interesting though.... although the Germans were the first to mass produce jet aircraft, they didn't lay the foundations (that were the Brits).

On the other hand.... soundguided torpedos were first developed and fielded by the Germans (not being quite effective due to the allied use of the Foxer bait system) and also wireguided anti-tank missiles were developed by the Germans.

On further note.... a man named Zuse developed workable computers to calculate flight trajectory data for rockets and cruise missiles (what do you think, the V1 was?) and was quite successful in that.

So.... in addition to the tragedies of what happened in Germany in those years it is also tragic that the Allies (especially the US and Russia) chose to reap the spoils of torture and industrialised genocide to further their own technological development.

By the way.... you forgot Heinrich Heine in your list who spoke the words "There where people burn books, they will soon burn humans"