why hate socialism?

[Skybird]

Snow seem to live on Mars, in an isolated habitat.

NATO bankrupt. Hm, last time I checked the american national debt appoached the level of it'S yearly GDP.

america paying for europe: last time I checked, eurpope and many others payed subsidies into the american system after it collapsed under it'S design. Trillions got lost due to that system being like it is.

Finding out we miss GWB, hm, dream on.

"We'll see", hm no, we already know.

russian aggression imminent, western Eur0pe short of falling. Pure paranoia. Most military wars and interventions after WWII have been fought not by russians or Chinese, but America. Often uncalled.

Not being able to help you, you are right, with that crippled state fiances, those debt levels, and that even more crippeling trade deficits you soon will not be able to do anything anymore indeed, if others do not pay your bills and allow you to continue to live on tic and excessive spending and consuming. Without the willingness of the chinese, europeans and Russians to buy your worthless state bonds to keep your market a bit available for our exports, you would already be state-bankrupt, and there would not be troops standing in Afghanistan or in Iraq, because paying for them then would have needed you to pay from your own cash that you have in full taken away from domestic puroses at home. If you take 3-5 trillion dollars (Iraq war costs and follow up costs 2003-2008) away from the state's budget at home, and no foreign aide comes in, that causes a hard matter loss that would cause riots and civil unrest in your homes and cities. Promised.

Try to pick up some of the attitude of the noble speech McCain gave to admit his defeat, try to show a bit of his greatness and style in which he did it, and fought down the boooohs whenever Obama's name was said. Finally, he has found the positive posture again for which he had been known before going on campaign. Get down from Mars, and back to Earth. It's here where the music plays, not somewhere out there, in the outer space of your fantasies.

[Christopher Snow]

[quote=caspofungin]@snow
um, ok. birth rate is inherently related to gdp, rather than specifically due to a socialist viewpoint. what does abortion or "infanticide" or the pope have to do with an argument of socialism v capitalism?

Pope JP II (not just "a pope," but rather this specific pope ) would have argued that a socialist society, which embraced (even only "unofficially" a monstrosity as great as infanticide" would have also, necessarily been an arguement against socialismin general. He would have argued that Socialism itself, if it could support infanticide, was necessarily at least suspect. And possibly even quite degenerate (and I would have agreed).

I would put it, myself, in economic terms (roughly as outlined in previous posts).

JP II himself might have said "the deliberate devaluation of human beings is monstrous. Evil. And a society which supports it is monstrous too.

And this is what the Nazis did in the 1930's and 40's.

They decided some human being were simply "inconvenient."

Perhaps only 80-100 today are deemed as such per year, currently the case in Holland today (or for the last 20 years--and so there is a deliberate MURDER--by Dutch doctors-- of "inconvenient" infants...because society deems it "necessary."

Is that really so different from the deliberate MURDER of 6,000,000 people (mostly Jews) , in the case of the Nazis...because society also deemed it so? Because society deemed they were "unnecessary people?"

Those murdered were generally too old or too young to gain useful work out of them (via Nazi slave labor)...and so their lives were also deemed "not worth living."

AKA: "Inconvenient."

It's an all-to-slippery-slope we slide down, and one with which, we humans should not be so safely trusted.

We are not that far advanced as a species.

To make decisisions like this, IMO, we need the guidance of God.


CS

[Christopher Snow]

Fair enough. Even though we all disagree how it is we arrived here, we also all seem to agree we ARE here at least.

So.

You deal for yourselves. NATO is off the table entirely.

I didn't say it wasn't bankrupt before, btw, I just said we wouldn't keep bleeding ourselves to support it.

Not necessary any longer? Cool! I really do think Obama won't want to keep supporting either (hey....there is one thing I actually AGREE with him on).

And good luck with those Russian tank columns. It's not that we won't WANT to help you....really, we would if we could...

...but we're just too broke.

Tanks, soliders...airplanes....all cost a lot.

What IS relatively cheap to use are NUCLEAR WEAPONS (hey....you let us know what you want to do).

To Paraphrase Obama himself, during the US fiscal crisis: Call me if you need me/Call us if you need us. We also have twelve interceptors somewhere in Poland (you'll remember those twelve defensive weapons--they don't have any offensive warheadds....and you were all protesting them as "uneccassarily provacative").

Hey....'m sure those twelve warheadless missiles alone will be enough to stave off any attack that might come your way (and I'm sure you have the same level of faith too)!


CS

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

we also had things like empty shops because of the central distribution of goods and other "pleasures" like that. I really dont't think someone would like - if he had a chance to decide- to live in a country where it was an effort to buy toilet paper or bread and you have to save your whole life to buy a car? But it's kinda difficult to feel when one haven't seen this with one's very eyes... thats the real story about the high ideals of marx & co. :rotfl:

[Catfish]

Hey,

quote from C. Snow:

" ...We are not that far advanced as a species.
To make decisisions like this, IMO, we need the guidance of God. ..."

You and i have obviously a different perception, or idea, of god. If we need a god like you imagine to make decisions like "do not kill babies" in Holland or "do not kill jews" by the Nazis (which b.t.w. cannot at all be compared! ) we are indeed not a very advanced spcies.
Ethical behaviour or common sense was not invented by christians, muslims, or any religion, but indeed of people who lived together and - if at all - believed in a lot of gods - you might call them pagans.

Back to the thread ?

Greetings,
Catfish

[Skybird]

Fair enough. Even though we all disagree how it is we arrived here, we also all seem to agree we ARE here at least.

So.

You deal for yourselves. NATO is off the table entirely.

I didn't say it wasn't bankrupt before, btw, I just said we wouldn't keep bleeding ourselves to support it.

Not necessary any longer? Cool! I really do think Obama won't want to keep supporting either (hey....there is one thintg I actually AGREE with him on).

Andood luck with those Russian tank columns. It's not that we won't WANT to help you....really, we would if we could...

...but we're just too broke.

Tanks, soliders...airplanes....all cost a lot.

What IS relatively cheap to use are NUCLEAR WEAPONS (hey....you let us know what you want to do).

To Paraphrase Obama himself, during the US fiscal crisis: Call me if you need me/Call us if you need us. We also have twelve interceptors somewhere in Poland (you'll remember those twelve defensive weapons--they don't have any offensive warheadds....and you were all protesting them as "uneccassarily provacative").

Hey....'m sure those twelve warheadless missiles alone will be enough to stave off any attack that might come your way (and I'm sure you have the same level of faith too)!


CS

Don't stress your mind too intensely, it may hurt.

We are not that far advanced as a species.
To make decisisions like this, IMO, we need the guidance of God.

Ask him why he made us this not far advanced species that we are, then. Or better, ask yourself what it tells you about God when this not far advanced species has been made in God's own image (Gen 1,27).

Oh dear, politics and religion in one thread - we all know how this is set to end.

+++ proximity alert +++ destruction is imminent +++ proximity alert +++ destruction is imminent +++ EJECT +++ EJECT +++ EJECT +++

[Christopher Snow]

[/quote] Ask him why he made us this not far advanced species that we are, then. Or better, ask yourself what it tells you about God when this not far advanced species has been made in God's own image (Gen 1,27).[/quote]

All that suggests to me is that he has/had some hopes for us (assuming you believe all that "made in his own image" stuff--I'm rather skeptical about it, quite frankly).

If you want to know what he thinks about it--then YOU ask him! He and I aren't even on decent speaking terms 98% of the time. I don't read the Bible (might have read a few bits just once). (shocking but true).

I just happen to recognize that men who operate WITHOUT some guidance from God (and some willingess to listen to him) are generally far worse off (and are far more "devolved" than are those who are at least willing to listen).

Not that I'm so willing to listen myself much of the time.

I just can't help but see that when men WON'T listen, they generally devolve once again, and quite quickly too.

And sometimes they devolve to the point that they actively....and even willingly...begin to hurt their fellow man.


CS

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I just happen to recognize that men who operate WITHOUT some guidance from God (and some willingess to listen to him) are generally far worse off (and are far more "devolved" than are those who are at least willing to listen.

Operating on that logic, if someone sought guidance from Captain Kirk, they'd make better decisions than if they hadn't?

And for that matter, am I devolving because I dont ask a God for guidance in my daily decision making?

In my recollection, people in positions of power who have thought that they have been given 'divine guidance' haven't exactly had the greatest of successes, have they. :hmm:

[Christopher Snow]

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips

Operating on that logic, if someone sought guidance from Captain Kirk, they'd make better decisions than if they hadn't?

And for that matter, am I devolving because I dont ask a God for guidance in my daily decision making?

In my recollection, people in positions of power who have thought that they have been given 'divine guidance' haven't exactly had the greatest of successes, have they. :hmm:

Good points, all.

1) Kirk: If the "someone" in question were a starship captain, then yes, I think he or she would be likely to make better decisions after having consulted him.

I think that even stands up logically.

2) Quite possibly yes. Please do note, before I proceed any further, that I, myself, am "guilty*" of the same crime/error almost every day too. In fact, I've probably been "guilty*" of it for longer than you have been--as a "Christian," I, personally, am a collossal failure.

[* I use the word tongue-in-cheek, so don't jump all over me--it's just because I cannot, at the moment, think of one that illustrates the dual concept of "choice"+"responsibility" and any better]

3) Very true. On the whole, (and because, IMO, even our best leaders have rarely been able to keep ego and self-centeredness out of their "talks with God"), a great many leaders HAVE, indeed, failed to succeed.

"Talking to God"...and relying on his wisdom (when it trumps your own) is a very difficult thing to do well--in my own experience (I am very, very poor at prayer), it's almost futile.

But I believe it is, despite all that, STILL the best hope and best path by which man might improve himself and his lot (WITHOUT doing so at the expense of his fellow man).

To put it another way (and I'm sure you've heard this one): "if God did not exist, it would still be necessary for man to invent him."

"Man, left only to his own nature, is just a monster**"

[**don't know if anyone else ever said this, but the last phrase is purely my own. To put it still another way: "I don't trust...US...left only to ourselves."]


CS

[frenzied]

Whatever happened to Church and State being separate?

[August]

Originally Posted by frenzied

Whatever happened to Church and State being separate?

It's as separate as it ever was...

[Christopher Snow]

Originally Posted by frenzied

Whatever happened to Church and State being separate?

I am not suggesting a "recombination of Church and State" be implemented by our government. Not at all.

I am merely suggesting it would be prudent for ANY elected official to consult God, when in doubt (and perhaps even when NOT in doubt too).

Moreover...and especially if you DON'T believe it...why should you then fear a short prayer?

Could it be because some of you actually DO (even if only secretly) believe in God...and do fear what he might "do to you" if given the opportunity? Or what he might suggest to you?

Most of you will, after all, have heard the phrase: "There are no athiests in foxholes...."

-------------

This is one of the reasons I am fond of Governor Palin: She doesn't claim to know all the answers.

Instead, she says will ask for guidance when she feels she needs it. I like that.

I could only wish our other world leaders would actually (and in all sincerity) try to do so too....

If they all did, at least ASK (with open hearts and minds) I do believe this world would be a better place to live in...

...for all of us.


CS

Just a little bit of info regarding immidiate Russian attack.

This is the current military budget of the US, the combined EU, Russia and China



EU combined: over 8 million military personal, including reserves. 17.000+ tanks, 4000 combat aircraft of all kinds.

Russia is not doing anything stupid anytime soon. It is not even remotely back to it's cold war capabilities. If you made the choice to live in fear, have fun, but we prefer a bit more realistic outlook on the world.

[Skybird]

Couldn't we leave religions out of all this? where believers make no stand, non-believers must not feel provoked to make an opposing stand - and all the mess we have seen happening in past polit-religious threads - all so often! - could be avoided. Man's belief and relation to what he names as his idol, deity, messiah, whatever, necessarily are most private things, and nothing that must be paraded and shown around in public. It is no fairground attraction you show around, proud and self-rightous. Keep it for yourself, where it belongs.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Just a little bit of info regarding immidiate Russian attack.

This is the current military budget of the US, the combined EU, Russia and China



EU combined: over 8 million military personal, including reserves. 17.000+ tanks, 4000 combat aircraft of all kinds.

Russia is not doing anything stupid anytime soon. It is not even remotely back to it's cold war capabilities. If you made the choice to live in fear, have fun, but we prefer a bit more realistic outlook on the world.

you know how the games is played - where there is no demons, there is no justification to demand a rise in defense spendings!

what europe needs, is not so much a rise in defense budgets, but a massive restructuring, reorientation and closer supra-national cooperation, and I say: by exclusion of the US. not becausue of some blind anti-Amerricanism, but becasue european and american views of what NATO should be are very different, and because european forces cannot gain the strength and independance from America, what America always demands!, if always relying on american military power. Also, here in europe eurppean interests are different from American interests in europe, both interests only share some things. The problem is that america may want a stronger military in europe, but wants it to be available globally for american policy. It does not want truly independant eurpean forces - of what use would this be for america, if it is not available to america? It would more be a rival, like economically europe already is (f.e. do you think Boeing is happy that Airbus exists?) That's why they pressed so hard to get US-dominated NATO structures into every effort there has ever been for NATO-independant european military structures, it sometimes led to interventions on highest political level. It's not about sharing resources, and greater efficiency. It is about control and influence. In some way, Europe should serve as america's legion etrangere. especially in Afghanistan it was obvious, when they pressed and finally succeeded in NATO officially accepting a military mandate for operations in that country. If you remember, originally NATO had no interest and no role in Afghanistan, it was a purely American war, american and eurppean missions were tried to kept separate. Which probably was a folly in itself, nevertheless. Not before america shifted troops to the war of choice in Iraq and things in Afghanistan detoriated as a consequence of that, NATO was pressed to embark on the mission.