The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Von Due

To say that Islam is the only religion spreading hate is nonsense. We need to stop making up excuses for our own personal favourites and look at all religions. I can't think of any religion really, among the big ones, that is innocent.

Muhammad alias the Prophet called for subjugaton of the other, and conquest. Show me were Siddharta alias the Enlightened or Jesus alias the Risen have done that. Buddha called for reaosn and self-reralisation by undertanding one'S own mind and how it functions, Jesus, in plenty of metaphors, I admit, also pointed to people's inside as the source of relief from suffering. Theists will call me out on that and insist that his talking of Father and God have to be taklen literal, but if taking it literal, it makes no sense what he said and only is another addition to the huge canon of superstitious mumbojumbo. People like Meister Eckhart and the socalled Christian mystics porbbaly got it best what Jesus wanted to say - and that is not what the church's official view of things are! Some historians even claim there were hints that could indicate that Jesus even travelled to IUndia in the time before the Bibles starts vtracking and telling his life, and that he may have learned about Buddha'S teahcing there. It is speculation to me, but I see no principle unsurmoutable contradictions between Christian mysticism and Buddhism. - Subjugation, totalitarian unity, conquest demanded by Muhammad, self-realisation and exploring mind, tolerance and peacefulness without subjugating thb eother by force, recommended by Siddharta and Jesus. - You are wrong, by content ideologies are NOT all the same. Not by lightyears. Islam once had a mystic tradition, too, btw, much to the anger of the orthodoxy. When the Moingoles destroyed Bahdad, this traditoion and it smajor names got wiped out, muczh to the relief of said orhtodoxy. While today there are the Sufis, their tradition never won back the influence and recognition the earlier mystics had. The Sufis are being seen as very supectible potential heretics, much like the Chinese regime keeps the shaolin heritage under control and runs it for tourist shows, in the main.

Its about the content of these ideologies, then. Muhammad preached conquest, violance, intolerance, racism, he demanded blackmailing and called for and demanded the murdering of his critics and opponents. Brute force and the claim that it is heresy against the will of Allah if one resists to him, were the axes of power he swung. Thus Islam is what it is, and you can find that out yourself if you would care to read into its scriptures, maybe even considering the so-called abrogation principle* when doing that which rules that later statements by the prohet should overrule earlier statements by him that the latter would contradict.

To give Islam a kinder face, you have to actively ignore the message of that ideology'S creator. But you have to distort and violate the message of Buddha or Jesus to give it a violent appearance. Churches, political actors in disguise that they always have been, may have done that in the past, but they betrayed Jesus were they did so. The point is: our ancestors for the most have left these brutal practicings behind, and have forced religion back, to be less tyrannic a force in public life. We pout it in chaisn and rendered its much more powerless, this is where our civilization'S rioghts and liberties, its wealth and scientific knowedlege stem from. In islam, the claim for Islam and Sharia ruling every aspect of human life, run hot, and so its places are still were our ancestors were centuries ago. Before Muhammad, the Arabs were superior in trade, physics, optics, mathematics, medicine, then came Muhammad and in the two centuries followiung the great stagnation started to spread and suffocated every intellectual life that could have been a challange to religous dogma - and it is like this until today, and that si why their countries are so dark and backward and barbaric until today with all their lacking capability and stoneage law. And still they claim they are superior and that the world owes to bow its knees to Islam!? While at the same time they hopelessly depend on the ifnidel world, its tehcnology, knowledge, sciences, medicine, industry...?

But go on, relativise things endlessly like so many others do. Its all relative - and with that knowledge of omnipresent relativity, you can give evry evil a kind face and declare it as innocent and a victim of circumstances, or a victim of intended its victim that had the impudence to resist to it and to fight back.

Heck, just compare what is known about the biography of Muhammad to the biographies of Jesus and Siddharta. No comparison possible, they just do not compare. The first today would be called a warlord and mobster and war criminal, the latter two - well, show me were they lead people to war, called for the destruction of other cultures and intimidated foreigners to submit and to pay proteciton money. Muhammad ordered almost 70 raids and wars during his lifetime, commande dmost of these himself, and also ordered what today would qualify for genocide, and ordered the assassination of critics or people who know his chetaing too well and had to flee for their lives (his secretaries, for example). Comapring Muhammad to Jesus or Buddha is like comapring the progroms of Stalin's secret police to the work of Schweitzer in the African jungle. Relativise that, if you can.

Its not Islam that does enlighten the world, in fact it covers the world with darkness, superstition, illiteracy, intolerance, racism and theocratic dictatorship. It is the Western cultural heritage that has created the wealth, the high standard of civilization, the rights and law culture, the civil liberty, the civil societies of the West that mark the so far climax of human civilizational evolution, second to none - I say that: SECOND TO NONE. We throw that all carelessly away today, yes, but the Islamic world since centuries stucks with its head in the ahole of history, one thousand years deep. The examples of Erdoghan's Turkey, or the nightmarish "Arab spring that was not real", should show everybody how easily the kraken of Islam awakes from what never has been a lasting chnage or self-refomation, but only a temporary winter sleep, and how easily it takes over control over people's mind'S and hearts again. Its not that Erdoghan has run a coup detat to get elected. I have gotten aroudn a bit in the Muslim world, I tell you it is predominantly arch- and even ultra-conservative, even if you well-meaning Westerners with your kind hearts do not want to hear that. What happoens in Turky since Erdoghan for exmaple therefore does not surprise me one bit, nor did the outcome of the Arab Sporing surpise me. It were the to-be-expected results,and I said that since many years.

"It's the ideology, stupid." And this one, Islam's, is written down black on white in the revelation of its claimed highest authority: its deity, what makes it unavailable for human corrections. And yet Westerners weasel around it like performing a dance around eggs, in a bidding to not call it by its wicked names and so wanting to avoid realisation of that they have to confront it over the threat it poses to the world - at least if they do want to defend their most natural, essential freedoms. Which absolutely also means: freedom FROM Islam. Or any kind of totalitarianism and theocracy, btw.

If you are too afraid to defend freedom, you do not deserve it. Afraid you can be, and should be, it may teach you both caution and determination - but you should not allow it to dictate your decisions. But that is what happens, this, and what happens further is the brutal, unscrupulous selfish opportunism of Western decisions makers with extremely short sight, a deficit owed to the mechanisms of modern "democracy". . And the illusions of fairy queen-believers also play into it, who think that if only they mean it well enough in the deepest bottoms of their hearts, things will turn for the better all by themselevs and without needing to fight for their improvement or defence.

Europeans are unable to bear conflicts, their sensible, precious poor minds cannot stand the idea of having to fight (how barbaric, how male...! how stoneage-ish! Better pacify the bad, bad world by attending the CSD and with genderdism studies, and care for planting 1 sqm of rain forest when buying a sixpack of alcohol-free Krombacher!) Uncapable of conflict, and unwilling of conflict. And watching as the things unfold in Europe since many, many years, and how integration gets denied by Muslims on great scale throughout Europe, and local populations reacting increasingly hostile to them in a logical feedback, it takes no rocket scientist to make reasonable projection where this cowardice and incapability will lead Europe too.

The disaster named EU, and Euro, of course tremendously help to detoriate things over here.

[Catfish]

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel."

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..."

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;"
"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."
"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."


But there's also sound and kind advice:
"Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19)

Ah.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

There is one other important difference between Christianity and Islam today. That is lack of more or less fundamentalist proponent for one unified Christian faith. Back when bloodshedding in name of the Christ was in its apex this role was served by the Papacy in Rome which acted both for spritiual and temporal reasons. Ofcourse temporal interests of temporal rules also played their part.

The modern Islamic world has very similar situation except that there are two competeting proponents: the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (Wahhabist Sunni Islam) and the Islamic Republic of Iran (Shia Islam). Just like in the Christian world, especially back in the Middle Ages. these proponets and their allies act both for spiritual and temporal reasons.

I personally don't see much chance for change as long as these two proponents play their little games.

[Von Due]

You are setting the fundamentalists of one religion up against non-fundamentalists of another and the result is absurd.

What strikes me immediately is how Christians almost unanimously interpret the "sword" that Jesus will bring with him as words, or separation etc etc. Then you have those pastors who preach the "sword" is really a heavy machine gun. The Qu'ran is written as a... imagine a bible written as one gigantic poem, with verses.The meter might be off at times but it really is a huge collection of verses, just like a poem of sorts.

As for passages in the Bible, which we can read literally, or symbolically, as we would then read the Qu'ran literally, or symbolically, we can look at
Deuteronomy 17:
2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Now, we can read this literally, or symbolically but then we have also chosen how to read the Qu'ran. This is precicely where fundamentalism enters the stage, or leaves the stage as is the case for most.

You can not ignore the importance of the difference between fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists.

Yes, according to most, Jesus preached pacifism. Yet, to others it's a matter of holyness to hate the most. Buddhism is to most a pacifist religion/philosophy. Yet, it is being used as a fundament for raising ideas of master races vs subhumans of no value as living beings. Islam is really no different when their book can be read symbolically, or literally. Now the real issue:

What about the Qu'ran's words that jews and christians are "people of the book" that shall be protected and respected?

Should we choose to take that single piece out and say that one piece is meant symbolically but the rest is to be taken literally? Should we say that yes, all muslims take that literally therefor terrorism against jews and christians? Or should we say everything is to be taken symbolically, metaphorically if you like.

None of this makes sense at all unless we reintroduce the religious leaders who will talk their followers into a frenzy when the time is right. Here you also have an answer to the question why Al Quaida declared war on ISIS (how well that went is up for debate), why you have all these rfactions fighting eachother and various Islamic nations while being backed up by other Islamic nations. It is not about the words in the books. It is how the words are interpreted and presented by and to the followers of all these leaders.

PS: Yes, I am playing the devil's advocate here but there is so much wrong with the whole debate here in the west that someone has to take that role. I just don't have any wish to do it every day for the rest of my life.

[Betonov]

Von Due, you're new here, aren't you ??

Just like the pastors, muftis and grand priests of an other radical organizations, some members here also choose to focus on certain, for them more agreable parts of media reports, ideologies or scriptures, while ignoring the rest.

And playing the devils advocate means only those that are not like blinded horses will actually not ignore you.
Some of us tried and failed. Talking to a wall always brings the same result.

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

For some reason video (if there is such, I see only commercials) doesn't work for me so I would appreciate if someone could provide summary on content.

It's a bank robbery, but the guard is just a security monitor, his only job is to let people know if there's a robbery. He tells the woman on the floor "Yeah, there's a robbery." The commercial goes on to say why monitor a problem if you don't intend to fix it.

This guy was monitored, or had been in the past, but they didn't follow up at all. They can tap all of "our" phone conversations, but they can't keep track of this guy? My bank alerts them if I take out over $10,000, but they can't track this guy? Hey you know that guy you thought was a terrorist just bought a couple guns and 500 rounds of ammo, just thought you should know. Really have to wonder if it comes down from the top to lay off these guys? It's obvious POtuS tries to go out of his way not to blame them for anything. Oh, no it's the evil NRA and republicans that he blames.

I can't wait til this POtuS leaves, and I sure hope that the wicked witch isn't the next to take his place.

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Talking to a wall always brings the same result.

To not quote Tommy Cooper: Humans make terrible walls

Nah, one can't shut up just because people stop listening. Sounds silly doesn't it? Like I said, humans make terrible walls and ever so often we find ourselves looking into stuff we never looked into before but if we all keep quiet as soon as people walk away then we might as well pack it up and say "have it your way, guys" and that is really not what we need. Keep yapping and if only one guy listens up and has his or her curiosity peaked then that is totally great!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel."

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..."

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;"
"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."
"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."


But there's also sound and kind advice:
"Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19)

Ah.

Going through the four gospels, i cannot find where Jesus nicknamed the Christ have said that. And what there was before - was Judaism. Christian religion is so-to-speak a reformation of Judaism.

The Quran however always was just what would equal the Old Testament in the Bible. It has no reformation chapter like the Glad Tidings. Some argue it is plagiatarism. A cheap copy.

Also, the Quran is not man-made. It is God'S own revelation of his will and word. Christian usually at leats agree that the creation of the Bible was a human endavour, telling about God, but not made by God. Islam'S Quran is God'S own creation. untouchable and unavailable for comment, or criticism. We are just mortals, you see.

Jewish scholars started to collect mouth-to-mouth given transmission of their teahcings from around 500 B.C. on., the five books of Mose which formed the Tora in writing. In the following centuries, before Christ still, more parts of what later would be formign the Old Testasmrent, were colelcted and put down in writing, the pslams for exmaple, and many others. The youngest parts of ther old testament were added around 200 B.C. All this represents human mental evolution and status of knwoedge from almnost 2600 years ago, therefore - and includes only ther written format. The verbal tradition roots back even longer.

You now compare these with Islam, and attemnpt to relativise it by doing so. That works badly against yoiu, for two reasons.

First, you confirm your view that Islam and its scripture compares to a status of things and knowledge that is over 2 and a half millenia old. Well, I do not know about you, but I live in the 21st century - AFTER Christ. While the Islamic world mostkly sytill sticks with a status of 2 and a half millenia ago. I most not do long calculations to find which civilization and which human mindset is more advanced.

Second, the four gospels that form the core of Christ's message, obviously (and there is no Christan message without Christ), obviously were added not before Jesus had lived. Around 70 years after his death, is a common estimation. Jesus represnets a mssive chnage and "reforming" of the pychotic and sadistic tyrant the old testment describes, the god of the old testament and the God that Jesus describes, in principle have nothing in common. There is an evolutional quantum leap, obviously. Christians today mostly define themselves - if they even DO define themselves - on grounds of Christ'S message, they focus on the four gospels, the semron on the mount, and the comments and later stories added after the four gosp0els. The only big exceptions are some ultra-orthdox in the American mountains who still take the old etstament literally and, and the Ten Commandments that until today get quoted, but are not unique in the cnaon of world relgions, the set of m oral rules are pretyt much common sense, often represent natural law, and are beign share din many cultures and relgions (though not in all).

So, Although there has been a huge change in Judaic-Christian ways of definign man'S relation to the one deity, understood as the change that Jesus' appearance made, and this took place centuries after the Tora and later canon of scripture (OT) were collected - another whopping half millenia after Jesus Muhammad still had not gotten it and still stuck to the state of things half a millenia even before Jesus. He surely did not like experiments, did he. He was a already a thousand years old when he was born.

So what you do, Catfish, is comparing the understanding and world view of two groups of people that are set apart by a gap of ages. We in the West have advanced centuries beyond the state of things you fall back to in your quotes, millenia. Islam still sticks to those old conditions of ancient times, and views on things from back then. It still has its head stuck deep in the ahole of history, over one millenia deep - that may be rude, but it is the most matching description I have ever heard of it. You know what it is like that deep in there. Dark.

And you want to imply "us" and "them", the modern Wetsern world and the backwardly Islamic world, compare to each other, and we meet on same eye level? No, we don't meet on same eye level, it is an offence to ourselves if we accept to meet them on same eyx elevel, becasue we are so much more advanced in moral and mental evolution and evolution of civil liberty, and legal rights. we hand all that away, yes, but that is another stpory... And that is illustrated by how tremendously superior Western civilization has become in skill, knowledge, capability, human self-understanding and realsijng our minor sttaus in the universe. We may not always have used this in a wise and friendly manner, and we still see the old barbarism on ancient times popping up where we allow the ancient tyranny of religious fanatism flaming up again. Give relgion, even the churches, a single fginger, and rips off your whole arm and then demands more. But all in all we are centuries, many, many centuries more advanced than Islam's view on and claim for the world.

Have you heard the story of that Dutch girl that was raped in Quatar and was sentenced for illegal sex before marriage? Just one of so many stories illustrating how perverse thigns run in many of these palces. Not by exception from the rules but by official, legal standards, with many people, the majority of people supoportiung that. The young woman was allowed to leave the country, they did not want to stress diplomatic relations before their staged coup with the sports event has taken. If you are bored, you can find out what would have been her penalty if she were a Quatari woman. Its not pleasant, I found. Lesson from the sotry: donÄT get raped in coutnries like this - you find yourself in even bigger troubles afterwards. Becasue that is what teh law wants.

Get some injections and get back to your senses, all you relativisers out there. The world can very well ruin itself all by itself for while, while you take a break from enthusiastically assisting it.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Genuine question, for I don't understand this kind of behavior at all.
What is your motivation, I wonder? How do you convince yourself that Islam is totally dandy, while news from all over the world contradict you?

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.
I don't buy into the narrative that some people like to put out that we are at war against Islam, that is to say we are at war against the whole of the Islamic religion and all those who practice it. That we should automatically and instinctive segregate and treat Muslims differently because of the actions of people who are beyond the average followers ability to control.
It's a narrative that people on both sides of the divide love to enforce because it makes these actions easier for people to accept, it makes radical actions easier to digest, and so we slide step by step into the mire whilst grappling together for eternity.

This is why I make the difference between Islam and Radical Islam, between a Muslim and a Terrorist, because I don't want to stoop to the levels of those who walk into a gay nightclub and kill 49 people.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Von Due

To not quote Tommy Cooper: Humans make terrible walls

Nah, one can't shut up just because people stop listening. Sounds silly doesn't it? Like I said, humans make terrible walls and ever so often we find ourselves looking into stuff we never looked into before but if we all keep quiet as soon as people walk away then we might as well pack it up and say "have it your way, guys" and that is really not what we need. Keep yapping and if only one guy listens up and has his or her curiosity peaked then that is totally great!

You poor bugger, well...good luck. Prepare to be called naive, foolish, delusional and everything else because of it.
Truth be told though, most of the sides in this thread made their minds up a loooooong time ago, and I doubt very very very much that they will ever change their point of view.

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Oberon

You poor bugger, well...good luck. Prepare to be called naive, foolish, delusional and everything else because of it.
Truth be told though, most of the sides in this thread made their minds up a loooooong time ago, and I doubt very very very much that they will ever change their point of view.

Forever is a very long time and if humans couldn't change their minds we would still worship clay statues of women.

I'm not holding my breath though and by that I really mean it, nor hoping nor stop yapping on about it and there are very few surprises left, I think, about what people call me. I've been called many a things, a communist nazi (really), ungodly, deeply religious, short, tall, fat, slim etc

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Oberon

You poor bugger, well...good luck. Prepare to be called naive, foolish, delusional and everything else because of it.
Truth be told though, most of the sides in this thread made their minds up a loooooong time ago, and I doubt very very very much that they will ever change their point of view.

Actually I was wondering how this would go - a gay man attacks a LGBT club and professes to be inspired by radical Islam.


It hits all the boxes for some users here.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.
I don't buy into the narrative that some people like to put out that we are at war against Islam, that is to say we are at war against the whole of the Islamic religion and all those who practice it. That we should automatically and instinctive segregate and treat Muslims differently because of the actions of people who are beyond the average followers ability to control.
It's a narrative that people on both sides of the divide love to enforce because it makes these actions easier for people to accept, it makes radical actions easier to digest, and so we slide step by step into the mire whilst grappling together for eternity.

This is why I make the difference between Islam and Radical Islam, between a Muslim and a Terrorist, because I don't want to stoop to the levels of those who walk into a gay nightclub and kill 49 people.

I agree I dont think for an instant that all 1.7 billion muslims are radical extemists but then there are soldiers who fight and civilians who read about it in every war. But dont forget too this is a religion, what is being carried out by the soldiers can according to their own teachings be construed as pointing towards a minor end time prophecy. This I think will only lead to more jumping on the bandwagon of extremism and as well as the silent approval by others.

[Skybird]

We slowly approach the climax of the show where somebody will show up in TV and say that the terrorist was gay himself, could not bear it, turned from auto-aggressive to projecting his self-hate onto others (hating him), and decided to take revenge. By the pricking of my thumbs, I could swear that this one comes.

[Von Due]

As for LGTB and Islam, there's an article on BBC's webpages that is an interesting read.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36388507

While it does bring the risk of execution, there is a parallell approach that pushes gender change as a "solution". Another thing I noticed was, here was a mother, deeply religious and still she accepted her daugher's partner living in their house despite hating it. No call to the coppers from her unlike for an Iraqi fellow who was on the run from his family with a death threat on his head.

No surprise really, how individuals have well... individual views on how to deal with it.