Astute vs Virginia - Page 8

rman214 · 09-17-06, 01:35 PM

Been thinking about it since my last post and realized the UK has some darn good subs and sailors. I will withhold judgement until the Astute becomes operational. Too bad the Royal Navy gave up Pusser's rum

Linton · 09-20-06, 08:13 AM

Bow design will be a trade off between minimising drag and generated flow noise around the bow area.

SeaQueen · 12-05-07, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoBlo

But really, what can anyone do with a SSK, besides park it off your own coast and let it sit? How useful is that? *shrug*

Extremely useful if your goal is to deter amphibious assault or keep aircraft carriers at arms reach. Regarding the power projection question, not all diesel electric boats are so constrained in range and speed. The Germans sent diesel electric boats all the way across the Atlantic, remember. These days, though, in all likelyhood, if they wanted to deploy a submarine extremely far from home they would either tow it or transport it on a heavy lift ship.

Bellman · 12-06-07, 08:06 AM

SQ I tried to address the issue of 'power projection' deploying Kilos far from home, in my scenario 'Twitcher' at Bills. The need, I think, would be for more covert methods than those you suggest. I think a little lateral thinking ,outside the box, could reveal several possibilities.

armit · 11-29-15, 09:40 AM

I would say Virginia class is superior to Astute because of three reasons

1- Astute class is based on Virginia class simply because without technical assistance provided by Electric Boat, the BAE Systems would never have completed the project
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2930237.stm

2- Virginia class is a reduced version of USS SEAWOLF which is the most sophisticated nuclear sub ever built. One SEAWOLF (9600 tons ) cost more than a Virginia class and Astute class combined !

3-The Electric Boat has invented the nuclear sub in 1954 when they launced the USS NAUTILUS.. Britain learnt from the US how to build a nuclear sub.
The first British nuclear sub, the HMS DREADNOUGHT had a Westinghouse nuclear reactor , all other British nuclear reactors made by Rolls Royce were based on US technology.

Astute class being the most complicated sub is nothing more than a BAE SYSTEMS marketing mambo jambo in order to make more palatable an extremely expensive and delayed programm to British tax payers, this is what they want to hear.

Herr-Berbunch · 11-30-15, 02:55 PM

Welcome aboard

, and what a necro thread it is.

FWIW - my money is on Astute as that is clearly amphibious, as proven in October 2010.

FPSchazly · 11-30-15, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

Welcome aboard

, and what a necro thread it is.

FWIW - my money is on Astute as that is clearly amphibious, as proven in October 2010.

In my humble opinion, I'd say most, if not all, of us here aren't really in a capacity to effectively judge this. Yes, I realize this is all in good fun. Having said that, I think it would mainly depend on the quality of the Captain/crew in each boat at the time of "engagement," among other things.

Here's a quote I found from Wikipedia about a recent exercise between the Astute and the latest Virginia, USS New Mexico:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Navy Commander Iain Breckenridge

Our sonar is fantastic and I have never before experienced holding a submarine at the range we were holding USS New Mexico. The Americans were utterly taken aback, blown away with what they were seeing.

Aktungbby · 12-31-15, 07:47 PM

armit!

A trifle belated but in time for new years!

Onkel Neal · 12-31-15, 07:47 PM

This was always one of my favorite threads, we had some real Navy men here.

Aktungbby · 12-31-15, 08:24 PM

The Virginia class submarines are fitted with 12 vertical launch system (VLS) tubes. These are used to launched Tomahawk land attack cruise missiles with a range of 1 700 km. Also there are four 533-mm torpedo tubes. These are used to fire a total of 26 Mk.48 heavyweight torpedoes and Sub Harpoon anti-ship missiles. vs The Astute class boats are significantly stealthier and carry more weapons than the previous boats of Trafalgar class.
These attack submarines are fitted with six 533-mm torpedo tubes. These are used to launch Spearfish torpedoes, Sub-Harpoon anti-ship missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles. A mix of 36 missiles and torpedoes are carried. Astutes go a tad deeper while Virginias are a tad faster (32 knots vs 29) under water. However the Virginias are the better firing platform with more weapons and more tubes to launch: 16 vs 6 tubes 42 weapons vs Astute's 36 mix of projectiles...Additionally there are more Virginias (12 actual; 11 expected; and 11 planned) (total) planned than Astutes ( 2 actual 5 more expected) All in all: slight edge to Virginia: better more prolific firing platform and as the ruskies have it: "numbers have a cachet of their own'...which translates to: in the English-speaking lake known as the Atlantic, both sub fleets combined (SOP) are going to kick butt. Both use Harpoon and Tomahawk cruise missiles...interchangeable ammo!

http://www.military-today.com/navy/astute_class.htm

ikalugin · 01-01-16, 02:18 PM

Basically those are two different boats with different specialisation.

Astute class has a complex hull shape, huge side mounted sonar arrays and a relatively strong torpedo armament. This makes Astute the best 4th gen ASW hunter-killer.

Virginia on the other hand is a mass produced, technologically simple multirole sub - jack of all trades but a master of none, the sub that follows the lineage stretching back to 50s.

Hence I would say that they should not be compared directly. A better comparison to the Astute would be... Seawolf class, as Seawolf is also ASW specialised 4th gen submarine. Overall I would say that Astute is better, due to the larger sonar apertures.

What other 4th gen subs you get? Baracuda class - a "minimal" French SSN and the massive Yasen class - the death star with more than twice the weapons capacity of Virginia.

Jimbuna · 01-01-16, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Basically those are two different boats with different specialisation.

Astute class has a complex hull shape, huge side mounted sonar arrays and a relatively strong torpedo armament. This makes Astute the best 4th gen ASW hunter-killer.

Virginia on the other hand is a mass produced, technologically simple multirole sub - jack of all trades but a master of none, the sub that follows the lineage stretching back to 50s.

Hence I would say that they should not be compared directly. A better comparison to the Astute would be... Seawolf class, as Seawolf is also ASW specialised 4th gen submarine. Overall I would say that Astute is better, due to the larger sonar apertures.

What other 4th gen subs you get? Baracuda class - a "minimal" French SSN and the massive Yasen class - the death star with more than twice the weapons capacity of Virginia.

Some good points but has anyone taken into account the crew quality/training?

Now that is a debate all by itself.

Aktungbby · 01-01-16, 03:49 PM

Well I'm sure there's no debate at all: British crews are always best!

There was no suggestion that Dacres and his men had not done their utmost, or that Dacres had been unwise to engage the Constitution. He was therefore honourably acquitted of all blame for the loss. Anyone who can go into battle with a crew of 272- less 10 impressed Americans allowed to 'sit it out'- and a 'weight-of-metal of 526 lbs: 38 gun broadside vs 450 American's 44 guns and a weight-of-metal 950 lbs broadside:

can only be relying on a traditionally well-trained British crew to carry the day! Alas, occasionally better platform technology (thicker oak) messes up the equation.

At least "Lucky Jack" Aubrey

got even with another Constitution class frigate by improving his crew's rate-of-fire and subterfuge... to overcome the technology!

I rest my case!

ikalugin · 01-01-16, 05:25 PM

I think the crew training and competence is on about the same levels.

Aktungbby · 01-02-16, 01:57 AM

View Poll Results: Which sub is better?
US Virginia Class	51	61.45%
British Astute Class	32	38.55%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

09-17-06, 01:35 PM	#106
rman214 Watch Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 22 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Astute vs. Virginia Been thinking about it since my last post and realized the UK has some darn good subs and sailors. I will withhold judgement until the Astute becomes operational. Too bad the Royal Navy gave up Pusser's rum

09-20-06, 08:13 AM	#107
Linton Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,898 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Bow design will be a trade off between minimising drag and generated flow noise around the bow area. __________________ http://lintonsview.blogspot.com/

12-06-07, 08:06 AM	#109
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	SQ I tried to address the issue of 'power projection' deploying Kilos far from home, in my scenario 'Twitcher' at Bills. The need, I think, would be for more covert methods than those you suggest. I think a little lateral thinking ,outside the box, could reveal several possibilities. __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity Last edited by Bellman; 12-06-07 at 08:17 AM.

11-29-15, 09:40 AM	#110
armit Bilge Rat Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I would say Virginia class is superior to Astute because of three reasons 1- Astute class is based on Virginia class simply because without technical assistance provided by Electric Boat, the BAE Systems would never have completed the project http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2930237.stm 2- Virginia class is a reduced version of USS SEAWOLF which is the most sophisticated nuclear sub ever built. One SEAWOLF (9600 tons ) cost more than a Virginia class and Astute class combined ! 3-The Electric Boat has invented the nuclear sub in 1954 when they launced the USS NAUTILUS.. Britain learnt from the US how to build a nuclear sub. The first British nuclear sub, the HMS DREADNOUGHT had a Westinghouse nuclear reactor , all other British nuclear reactors made by Rolls Royce were based on US technology. Astute class being the most complicated sub is nothing more than a BAE SYSTEMS marketing mambo jambo in order to make more palatable an extremely expensive and delayed programm to British tax payers, this is what they want to hear. Last edited by armit; 11-29-15 at 09:48 AM.

11-30-15, 02:55 PM	#111
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	Welcome aboard , and what a necro thread it is. FWIW - my money is on Astute as that is clearly amphibious, as proven in October 2010. __________________

12-31-15, 07:47 PM	#113
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,031 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Welcome aboard ! armit! A trifle belated but in time for new years! __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

12-31-15, 07:47 PM	#114
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	This was always one of my favorite threads, we had some real Navy men here. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

12-31-15, 08:24 PM	#115
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,031 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	The Virginia class submarines are fitted with 12 vertical launch system (VLS) tubes. These are used to launched Tomahawk land attack cruise missiles with a range of 1 700 km. Also there are four 533-mm torpedo tubes. These are used to fire a total of 26 Mk.48 heavyweight torpedoes and Sub Harpoon anti-ship missiles. vs The Astute class boats are significantly stealthier and carry more weapons than the previous boats of Trafalgar class. These attack submarines are fitted with six 533-mm torpedo tubes. These are used to launch Spearfish torpedoes, Sub-Harpoon anti-ship missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles. A mix of 36 missiles and torpedoes are carried. Astutes go a tad deeper while Virginias are a tad faster (32 knots vs 29) under water. However the Virginias are the better firing platform with more weapons and more tubes to launch: 16 vs 6 tubes 42 weapons vs Astute's 36 mix of projectiles...Additionally there are more Virginias (12 actual; 11 expected; and 11 planned) (total) planned than Astutes ( 2 actual 5 more expected) All in all: slight edge to Virginia: better more prolific firing platform and as the ruskies have it: "numbers have a cachet of their own'...which translates to: in the English-speaking lake known as the Atlantic, both sub fleets combined (SOP) are going to kick butt. Both use Harpoon and Tomahawk cruise missiles...interchangeable ammo! http://www.military-today.com/navy/astute_class.htm __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

01-01-16, 02:18 PM	#116
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Basically those are two different boats with different specialisation. Astute class has a complex hull shape, huge side mounted sonar arrays and a relatively strong torpedo armament. This makes Astute the best 4th gen ASW hunter-killer. Virginia on the other hand is a mass produced, technologically simple multirole sub - jack of all trades but a master of none, the sub that follows the lineage stretching back to 50s. Hence I would say that they should not be compared directly. A better comparison to the Astute would be... Seawolf class, as Seawolf is also ASW specialised 4th gen submarine. Overall I would say that Astute is better, due to the larger sonar apertures. What other 4th gen subs you get? Baracuda class - a "minimal" French SSN and the massive Yasen class - the death star with more than twice the weapons capacity of Virginia. __________________ Grumpy as always.

01-01-16, 03:49 PM	#118
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,031 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	"Huzzah! Her sides are made of iron!"[ Well I'm sure there's no debate at all: British crews are always best! There was no suggestion that Dacres and his men had not done their utmost, or that Dacres had been unwise to engage the Constitution. He was therefore honourably acquitted of all blame for the loss. Anyone who can go into battle with a crew of 272- less 10 impressed Americans allowed to 'sit it out'- and a 'weight-of-metal of 526 lbs: 38 gun broadside vs 450 American's 44 guns and a weight-of-metal 950 lbs broadside: can only be relying on a traditionally well-trained British crew to carry the day! Alas, occasionally better platform technology (thicker oak) messes up the equation. At least "Lucky Jack" Aubrey got even with another Constitution class frigate by improving his crew's rate-of-fire and subterfuge... to overcome the technology! I rest my case! __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!! Last edited by Aktungbby; 01-01-16 at 03:57 PM.

01-01-16, 05:25 PM	#119
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I think the crew training and competence is on about the same levels. __________________ Grumpy as always.

01-02-16, 01:57 AM	#120
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,031 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	fun propaganda __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!