Is this the beginning...

[August]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

your own words make shreds of your position... your own words show your ignorance of the facts... you are my best source of validation of everything i propose...

Yeah whatever Mike. As bad as the IRA was they never held a patch to what the enemies of Israel (a better term for you than Arab?) have done and continue to do.

But what exactly do you propose? It's nice to say "Be like Ghandi and it'll all work out" but in this reality any Middle Eastern Ghandi, or Betty Williams, or Mairead Corrigan, is kidnapped and beheaded live on Al Jaziera. Ten seconds later the world forgets their names and goes back to damning the Jews for having the nerve to defend themselves.

This is the crux of the problem. There is NO Muslim version of the Women for Peace or Community for Peace People, at least not one which has any sway over the actions of the militants and no support among the Muslim community to start one either.

The origins of what became known as 'the Northern Ireland peace process' can be dated to the signing of the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreementbetween the British and Irish governments. The Agreement recognised that Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom could not change without the consent of the majority of its citizens and gave the Irish government a consultative (undefined) role in the affairs of Northern Ireland. The most important impact of the Agreement, however, was that it set in train a permanent, institutionalised co-operation between the two governments dedicated to achieving a durable settlementin Northern Ireland. It obliged the British and Irish governments to at least have policies towards Northern Ireland; something which had not always been the case over the previous decade and a half. Central to the subsequent peace process was that both governments worked on the understanding that if conditions of political and constitutional certainty could be engineered, and validated by substantial sections of both communities, then political violence would become increasingly difficult to sustain.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/bac.htm

Note the bolded part. Show me where both sides are working on understanding. Show me where both sides are striving for a durable settlement. All i see is one side, Israel, making concessions only to have them thrown back in their faces.

In short your Ghandi approach isn't valid in this situation.

[August]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

fighting... and lobbing shells into a civilian population are two different things... surely you can't be that thick headed as to not realize this simple fact...

Are you seriously saying that Israel would still be "lobbing" those shells at the civilian population if there weren't Hezbollah weren't hiding behind and amongst them?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by scandium

I have no sympathy for the murderers. They deserve whatever they have coming to them. And the "business as usual" is a big part of the problem on both sides, no disagreement there either, else this would have ended long ago.

As to the rest, I have already made my case and cannot add anymore to it Skybird. I don't have any solutions, but that doesn't deny me the right to believe that the "solution" being caried out now will ultimately do more harm than good, both in the short term and the long term. Perhaps I am right, perhaps I am wrong; I make no pretense at being prophetic either, I only give my opinion.

at least in this I carefull agree - what is happening now is not solution that will bring lasting freedom. It will win Israel time - if years or decades or just one year remains to be seen. To me it is the lesser of all evil options. Nevertheless - if choosen, this path better should be followed with all determination, else it will acchieve lesser thasn possible, at higher costs, and all losses that are suffered will be in vain.

That implicitly means, everything else that could be done instead of fighting Hezbollah is worse. I have no illusions about the success of the operation, they will weaken Hezbollah, maybe drive it away from the border, and it will deny them the infrastructure they used to use, and reduce their weapon stocks. But even the ground offensive that surely will come will not wipe out Hezbollah.

Hezbollah should not have been allowed to settle down and grow into Lebanon. the country now pays the price for the Syrian ruthlessness.

Time will tell, all you and I can do is stand on the sidelines and see how things play out.

No, the ideology that preaches hate and intolerance, "all or nothing at all", and the fall of the Western infidels that motivates the Paslestoinaisn as much as their wish to set back the clocks by 60 years, is present in the west as well and drives even deeper into it. Instead of ignoring it and playing down the threat it poses, we could stand up, confront it head on, and not allow it one more inch to advance at the cost of our values, our ethical and philosophical thinking, and our cultural identity that it claims to have a right to subjugate, so that we shall fall prey to it, or die. That is something that everyone can do, instead of just seeing how things play out.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

fighting... and lobbing shells into a civilian population are two different things... surely you can't be that thick headed as to not realize this simple fact...

no, that wasn't well said at all... that was just plain stupidly said... sorry, if that sounds a lil rough... but surely you must be of the age where you can discern the difference between what you say, what you imagine, and what you mean to say...

--Mike

When I am under fire by missiles, and the missile launcher is in the garage of a civilian house, and the ammo is stored in the backroom of a newspaper or grocery store - then i lob grenades onto both buildings. Period.

If ammo transports are depending on certain bridges to reach their launchers, and if the personnell operating that launcher is treated in a hospital from where they return to combat and keep on shelling me with grenades and missiles, then I bomb the bridges, and bomb the hospital. Period.

If enemy operations are organised via cell phones and wire-telephone, and if they need electricity to keep their organisation running, then i bomb powerplants, and telephone masts. Period.

And if they use the local supplies of water and food, so that they can find rest and gain strength to keep on fighting against me - then I bomb the food and water supplies. Period.

and if their fighters are seeking the crowd of civilians to hide between them, I regrettfully nevertheless fire at them.

THAT IS WHAT WAR IS ABOUT. It's cruel, it's nasty, and it broke my heart when we came through places that have seen battles like this short time before in Kurdistan, and children crying in a hidden hole for they have lost their sister or parents. I do not like it a bit, and I feel down when remembering such things too long. THAT IS WAR.

BUT ISRAEL HAS NOT ASKED FOR GETTING ATTACKED AND TERRORIZED TIME AND AGAIN, and as long as you cannot show better realistic alternatives than Scandium, I defend Israel's right for self-defense. and this although I am no special friend of Israel myself.


-----


Has anyone noticed, btw, how remarkably silent Arab governments are? For the, too, Hezbollah is a huge, Iran-made problem. They know very well that Israerl does them a favour when weakening of destroying it. Hezbollah means Iranian influence, and that is something thta has become more and more a problem for Araba nations in the ME. Add to that the Palestinian attempt to take over jordan, and you now why Arabas do nothing serious about the Palestinians anymore. Corruption of Arab governments, espcially the Saudi government, of cause also is a reason.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

Are you seriously saying that Israel would still be "lobbing" those shells at the civilian population if there weren't Hezbollah weren't hiding behind and amongst them?

no... that's not what i'm saying at all... i'm saying that they should not be lobbing those shells into civilian occupied areas, given the circumstances... period...

i have close friends who have relatives in Isreal... do you think that i can sanction what the Hezobola are doing either... lobbing shells into civilian occupied Haifa and other cities in the north...

one terror is no less evil than the other...

As bad as the IRA was they never held a patch to what the enemies of Israel

sounds good if you didn't get killed or injured by an IRA bomb... ask someone who was though... or who lost a relative... dead is dead... i've never heard of a terrorist bomb, or a mortar that ever asked it's intended target, which side they were on, before exploding... all this stuff you are coming up with is pure nonesense...

It's nice to say "Be like Ghandi and it'll all work out"

again you are being simplistic... i never said anything like that at all... did i...

All i see is one side, Israel, making concessions only to have them thrown back in their faces.

then you ought to look again... with better eyes this time... for surely all that you've been seeing sofar is what you wanted to see...

fear and prejudice has a way of clouding the visions of many men... add to that the blind faith of religious zealotsim and fanaticism, and it's no wonder that so many are walking around blindly ready to kill each other...

funny... the birthplace of the savior of the Judiac Christian and Moslem world is the center of so much strife... mainly because one group faces Mecca... and the other prays against the wailing wall... makes you wonder, doesn't it... makes me wonder...

you want my solution... build a big conrete cube and seal all of you off from the rest of the civilized world... lock the door and throw away the keys... let you all kill each other off, or let you all learn to live as your religions say you should...

you will forgive me for having such little patience with the prevailing ignorance and stupidity i am witness to... my sympathies lies with those who cherish life... those who cherish having children and families... those who seek to attain the positive things in life...

my solution... many individuals would start dissapearing tommorrow night, and each subsequent night... on both sides of this debased situation... all those who would perpertrate violence would find themselves missing when the sun rose the next day...

no explanation... no accounting...

it's obvious that an external force must step in and be able to reach out and touch those who need to be controlled...

if man cannot control himself, then he must be controlled... i understand that is may be part of the genetic makeup of the monkey that talks, the need to kill... you must realize that some monkeys have evolved past that point...

which monkey are you... the one with a spark of humanity in its soul... or the one with the savage killer insticts driving its actions... the one without a soul...


--Mike

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

if man cannot control himself, then he must be controlled... i understand that is may be part of the genetic makeup of the monkey that talks, the need to kill... you must realize that some monkeys have evolved past that point...

which monkey are you... the one with a spark of humanity in its soul... or the one with the savage killer insticts driving its actions... the one without a soul...

Is there a reason to think the other kind does have a soul? I thought they merely died faster. You know, the way evolution works, the nicest isn't always the best.

I also think you are defining humanity in a way many people in this world would not understand.

[Skybird]

Man is a monkey with BOTH the divine spark of humanity and the killer instinct in his soul. Two features of the same face. Tell him he's a creature of light, and he will be a light for others. Tell him all earth revolves around him, and he becomes a tower, throwing a long shadow.

[August]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

no... that's not what i'm saying at all... i'm saying that they should not be lobbing those shells into civilian occupied areas, given the circumstances... period...

Then defeating Israel is, by that rule, quite simple. Their enemy has but to surround himself with women and children like a shield to have a completely safe position from which to continue to kill Israelis. Day after day, month after month, year after year. At what point does it become permissable to defend oneself in that situation? Twenty miles into Israel, 40? In downtown Tel Aviv? When Israel is a crumbling beachhead on the banks of the Mediterranean?

Their enemy knows that forcing the Israelis to cause civilian casualties will turn world opinion against them so they deliberately use this. Israel drops leaflets telling civilians to get out, vastly increasing the danger to their own troops i may add, but the Hezbollah fighter won't let those civilians leave and even makes sure they get hit when the Israelis shoot back. Personally i suspect they even add to those civilian casualties themselves when they think they can pin it on the Jews, or in another war, the Americans and British. That's the type of enemy the Israelis are fighting.

i have close friends who have relatives in Isreal... do you think that i can sanction what the Hezobola are doing either... lobbing shells into civilian occupied Haifa and other cities in the north...

one terror is no less evil than the other...

Of course i don't think you sanction it, but terror, continious terror, must be met some how. Non violent responses, diplomacy and concessions, have been tried repeatedly, and have repeatedly failed. It keeps coming back to the question, what are the Israelis to do?

sounds good if you didn't get killed or injured by an IRA bomb... ask someone who was though... or who lost a relative... dead is dead... i've never heard of a terrorist bomb, or a mortar that ever asked it's intended target, which side they were on, before exploding... all this stuff you are coming up with is pure nonesense...

That's not what i meant. Comparing the sheer numbers of civilian victims alone between the two conflicts makes my point quite amply i think.

fear and prejudice has a way of clouding the visions of many men... add to that the blind faith of religious zealotsim and fanaticism, and it's no wonder that so many are walking around blindly ready to kill each other...

I'm willing to have my vision cleared Mike. What concessions for peace have Isreals enemies ever made? Where have they compromised? Perhaps I have missed it, so tell me, please, what were they?

funny... the birthplace of the savior of the Judiac Christian and Moslem world is the center of so much strife... mainly because one group faces Mecca... and the other prays against the wailing wall... makes you wonder, doesn't it... makes me wonder...

It's more than religious icons, to them it is home. That gives it far more meaning than simply some old dusty ruins or antiquities ever could. Make no mistake. This isn't just about Jerusalem or Gaza or the Golan Heights, or Allah or the God of Moses, it is about the right to live in ones homeland, ones right to exist.

you want my solution... build a big conrete cube and seal all of you off from the rest of the civilized world... lock the door and throw away the keys... let you all kill each other off, or let you all learn to live as your religions say you should...

This is coming from a guy who feels it's wrong to accidently injure non combatants in a war for ones own survival? What happens when the inmates storm those walls and gates and bust out of there to come after you civilized people? How will you deal with an enemy that attacks you from behind a shield of women and children when it comes up the Allegehney river to push you out of your home?

[quote]my solution... many individuals would start dissapearing tommorrow night, and each subsequent night... on both sides of this debased situation... all those who would perpertrate violence would find themselves missing when the sun rose the next day...

no explanation... no accounting...

it's obvious that an external force must step in and be able to reach out and touch those who need to be controlled...[/quote

Perhaps but that's one tall order! Who could possibly pull it off? The UN? No way. They've never kept the peace longer than it took for one side to re arm and re equip.

The US? I doubt it. Already the world, including most of our so called Allies, hates our guts and all we did was remove one thug dictator and his regime. I doubt they'd ever allow us go in there and straighten it out and even if they did i don't think America has the willpower to do it.

if man cannot control himself, then he must be controlled... i understand that is may be part of the genetic makeup of the monkey that talks, the need to kill... you must realize that some monkeys have evolved past that point...

Yes some, but certainly not all, and unfortunately, as someone wise once said "Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who didn't." (to which i'd add "assuming they are even allowed to live"). That is simple human truth as old as our species and nothing has ever happened to change that. Wishing it were not so won't do it.

which monkey are you... the one with a spark of humanity in its soul... or the one with the savage killer insticts driving its actions... the one without a soul...

My honest answer to that question my friend is both. There is both savage and saint in all of us, and which one influences our actions the most at any moment is primarily based upon our experiences and our environment. It's what it means to be human.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

@ August

you are deaf, dumb, and blind to any reality except the politcal religious brainwashing that obviously has taken place during your short stay here...

if i ran the zoo, i would lock you and all of you who think the same, narrow minded way, in a dark room, and throw away the key... that way you could excercise your savagery all you like...

you, and all who think (?) like you, are the ones who lack humanity... the monkeys who have yet to become humane in thought, word, and deed... the mokeys who have no soul...

it is people like you are the real enemy of all civilized human beings everywhere...

--Mike

[Skybird]

Cool down now, else the keylock will get oiled, I assume. We have understood that you prefer Islamic terror, and probably Islamic domination, to defending against it. Your choice, and we must not agree. But when you let it become that personal, you do something even more serious: you violate forum rules. You should know it better.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

We have understood that you prefer Islamic terror, and probably Islamic domination, to defending against it.

And Skybird once again resorts to the usual strawman.

Which is especially absurd within the context of this conflict, given that when Israel attacked Lebanon, among its small population of 4 million people were about 100,000 Canadians, Americans, Europeans, and Australians, and that 39% of Lebanon is Christian, and that the President of Lebanon is - and always has been, a Christian.

I think it is you Skybird, who prefers Islamic terror, since what else can come of the destruction of one of the few progressive ME democracies and the displacement of 100s of thousands of its people as refugees to scatter throughout the world while the West either cheers it on, or looks on in indifference. What else can come of such killing, injustice, chaos, and destabilization?

Do you think the pro-American Lebanese man who has never supported Hezzbollah, who helped drive the Syrians out, and who now as payment receives his house flattened by a Made-in-the-USA bomb dropped by the IDF, his family starved and forced to suffer by the Israeli siege of his country and the bombing of its infrastructure, and who is finally forced to leave his home, looking back upon his village that is now in ruins, for who knows where, might not decide that a little payback is in order?

How do you think Hezbollah was formed in the force place? Let me tell you: it was formed in the ruins that was once Lebanon, the ruins that it is being returned to once again, during an Israeli occupation that is about to be repeated, and it was funded, encouraged, and supported by other countries who found people who, in such a climate, were both receptive to an ideology of war with the IDF and who were desperate for the cash that such allegience would pay them. Whoda thunk such a think was possible? Look at Al Quadea now in Iraq - whoda thunk such a think was possible?

Now history repeats itself again. And still fools continue to think that anything else can come of this other than what has always come of it before.

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." G.W. Bush

[Skybird]

when we talk about Hezbollah we talk about Iran and it'S theocracy that was allowed under syrian military occupation to arm and and support the Hezbollah, and it went on when the Syrian troops left, foer syrian intel still is a major player in Lebanon and Lebanese politics (even the UN report ojn the assassination of Lebanese politicians point fingers at Syria). Hezbollah also receives genorous support by Syria. It is trained by Iranian revolutionary guards. It is qeuipped with small, but some latest missiles with ranges of over 200 km from Iranian production. Hezbollah is not regular army of Lebanon. In fact, Hezbollah has taken the whole country hostage, in the hope that that would prevent the Israelis to strike at Hezbollah, for moral scruples that Hezbollah itself does not have. Before Israel struck the first time against Palestinians and islamic terror (so far it is Muhammedans carrying those bombing belts, not Lebanese Christians, and so far they are quoting the Quran to justify their barbarism and murder, not the Bible), there was the vow of the Palestinians to destroy and kill Israel. And before Israel was founded, there was the vow of islam to subjugate all world, and dominate it, an kill all tother religions and cultures. The use of brutality, murder and every kind of violence is not a pervertion of Islam, but it is encoded in it'S very own teaching. It is no violation of a religion, it is the practicing of its very centre teachings. This is what will it make different from all other world religions, forever. Nowhere the use of military force, murder and violence is explciitly allowed, even demanded in a religion, nowhere.

This war is about destroying as much of Hezbollah's weapons and ammo stockpiles, and kill Hezbollah fighters, and drive them away from the border. It is not about bringing peace and demcoracy to the ME, it is about buying time for Israel - that is expected since years and decades to swallow all the assassinations and massmurdering on it's street and not complain, so that some fools could carry on with their naive illusions of that their is proportionality, and reason, and a so-called "peace process". Hezbollah uses Lebanon'S infrastructure, on a huge multitude of levels: traffic, informatio network, energy, supply lines, hiding places - that is why these structures now get destroyed. That's what you do in war - you destroy what supports your enemy.

Telling people that one does not have sympathy for terror, and telling them at the same time that one may not defend against it if it cannot be done without ruling out the hurting of bystanders, is very much worth the same: nothing, it leads to the same consequence: the ongoing of terror. Sympathy or not does not prevent the dying of terror victims in Israeli busses and cafes, nor does it prevent the murderers to strike again and again. Who cares for your statement you do not sympathize with terror? You demand that things are left in a way so that terror can carry on. You have no alternative to offer, and you even admit it. That's a lil' bit too thin.

you guys are very noisy about Israeli shelling of civilian houses that they suspect to be used by Hezbollah. So far noone has become as noisy when it came to protest against the detonation of bombs in busses. At bus stations. In cafes. The arbitary shelling of civilian cities and settlements by unguided rockets. Sniping of Israeli residents. Assaulting Israeli settlements at night. So far the offensive in Lebanon has costed far lesser lifes than Israel has lost in the past couple of years in civilian lifes. The pictures are just more spectacular, and there you go yelling.

If you accept murderers in your house or neigbourhood, don't wonder for being held responsible for that. you better drive them out, and if you can't, find someone who helps you, and if that is not possible too, you better move away yourself. Cause you get judged by the people in your company. As determined I fought against the Iraq war, I am tolerating and understand the Israeli reaction now, well-knowing that it is no miracle solution and will not bring lasting peace. but it buys time for Israel to get a breath, and weakens it's enemy more or less. Since I accept Israels right to exist in that place, as explained by reasons I gave in the past, I clearly label Hezbollah, Iran and Islam the attacker, and israel the defender. A defender that now defends himself with an iron fist, which may be irritating in Teheran. And this talking about that now more Lebanese will join Hezbollah. What is the difference between Lebanese too weak or too unwilling to drive away Hezbollah, supporting it indirectly that way, and Lebanese that still support Hezbollah, only mor openly now? Concenring the threat faced by Israel, there is no difference at all.

Iraq was a folly, becassue one wanted to bring something to it: peace, democracy, Western values. That's why it failed. This war now is different. It does not want to bring anything to anyone. It simply wants to kill as many enemies as possible. that's all.

[August]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

@ August

you are deaf, dumb, and blind to any reality except the politcal religious brainwashing that obviously has taken place during your short stay here...

if i ran the zoo, i would lock you and all of you who think the same, narrow minded way, in a dark room, and throw away the key... that way you could excercise your savagery all you like...

you, and all who think (?) like you, are the ones who lack humanity... the monkeys who have yet to become humane in thought, word, and deed... the mokeys who have no soul...

it is people like you are the real enemy of all civilized human beings everywhere...

--Mike

Gee Thanks Mike. I really appreciate the personal insults. Lessee, you accuse me of being, deaf, dumb and blind, brainwashed, narrow-minded, savage, lacking in humanity, without soul, a monkey and the enemy of civilized human beings everywhere. That's not bad for a four sentence post...

FWIW I may be a savage in your eyes and believe me that doesn't bother me in the least as i'd rather be ranked among them than your brand of insipid weaklings, but I do think for myself and I thank God every day that people such as you don't and, hopefully will never, run the "zoo", as you put it, called Earth. It's your kind that allowed Hitler to set the world on fire and firmly believe if were to run things you would allow his modern contemporaries to set the world on fire again.

What your type doesn't realize, and will never realize until it's too late, as always, is that you encourage the very savages you hate so with your weak and impotent beliefs. You enourage the suicide bombers and their militant Islamist masters who see your unrealistic opinions as an example of the inherent weakness of the western world.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

those aren't personal insults... you should know me better than that...

those are just an objective assesment of a demonstrated attitude of ignorance and lack of basic human considerations that you have shown time and time again...

and anyone who shares your lack of humanity, anyone who would show such disregard for human suffering and human life, on either side of this conflict, shares this assessment with you...

yes... you are right... i do think your attitude to be that of a savage... a throwback to the darker age when men slaughtereed and ate their brother...

sorry...

as for my type... which type is that... if you see me as someone who would sit around until a threat was too late, then you don't know me at all... i've spent years in the military... i know the difference between clear and specific threat and or danger... like i said above, a few highly motivated individuals, and your problems with the terrorists would be over...

but i wouldn't punish an entire population for the crimes of a specific enemy...

my type... it sounds as if you don't know my type at all... if you met me you might change your mind...

also, this has nothing to do with the inherent weaknesses of the western world... this is not a battle between the western world and the forces of darkness that scares you in your sleep and in your waking hours...

you see, it is your perverse logic that twists your vision of reality...

it's obvious that you can't see... why am i wasting my time... the reality of the situation is that you share the same fundamental lack of human consideration as the terrorists... two extremes locked in an eternal battle... neither one willing to acknowledge the others basic rights to humanity...

both doomed to destruction...

that is you... and all who tink (?) like you...

sorry... i just call em as they are....



--Mike

[August]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

those aren't personal insults... you should know me better than that...

those are just an objective assesment of a demonstrated attitude of ignorance and lack of basic human considerations that you have shown time and time again...

and anyone who shares your lack of humanity, anyone who would show such disregard for human suffering and human life, on either side of this conflict, shares this assessment with you...

yes... you are right... i do think your attitude to be that of a savage... a throwback to the darker age when men slaughtereed and ate their brother...



--Mike

Well i guess it's easier to call me a savage than actually answer any of the points i've made, like it's easier to spout off with vague Ghandi comparisons to a situation that Ghandi never faced. No biggy. So please continue to enjoy your computer war games and leave the running of this world to us savages.

By the way, for the record i have never practiced cannablism.