Boy Scouts of America votes to ease ban on gay members

[garren]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Christ on a bike. FOR THEIR SEXUALITY

One would conclude that when a gay man takes advantage of a straight man he's taking advantage of his sexuality and trying to strip him of his sense of masculinity, his heterosexuality. Rape is not about sex. It's about stealing a person identity from him. And one of those things is the persons sexuality. They want you to feel dirty and violated. They often tell you that you are now a "b-ch" and no longer a man and that you've just been indoctrinated into the gay club. It's literally like vampirism in a way. You get bit and you are now gay and always will be your whole life because you'll never forget it. It doesn't matter if you don't practice gay sex when you get out of prison. You are forever gay if you ever had gay sex.

[August]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

There's an important distinction to be drawn here between gender and sexuality. Segregation of gender happens all the time with children, because boys and girls grow up differently in terms of development and biology and such. Segregation of sexuality doesn't and shouldn't happen. A gay boy* grows up the same as a straight boy, segregating this out further just causes problems, as far as I can see.

Biology and development do not require more distinction than slightly different plumbing arraignments. Sexuality is the primary driver for segregating the genders, especially with teenagers. Anything else is artificially induced in relation to that.

Not at all, but the BSA is directly involving itself by excluding on the basis of sexual preference. Of course, the discussion now about changing that rule brings it all up again, but that should all quiet down once it's decided.

Unfortunately that takes cooperation from both sides. Regardless of the decision there will be continued reason to keep talking about it.

There have been plenty of companies withdrawing donations because of the discriminatory policy, the scouts are out of money either way, perhaps.

More than perhaps, I am sure you are correct. The gay rights issue has extended to just about every facet of American life. It's almost impossible not to take a side anymore. But what is the percentage of corporate support vs religious? Something like 20/80%? What's gonna hurt more?

...but if basic homophobia turns out to be the only thing holding it together then I'm not sure if it's worth keeping. Six of one

A Pyrrhic victory at best I think. I'm sure the churches and various other backers will continue with their own versions of Scouting. It's just the national non-secular organization that will loose out, and maybe it's time for that anyways. The nation is tearing itself apart on so many other issues it might as well tear on this one as well.

[August]

Originally Posted by garren

You are forever gay if you ever had gay sex.

You really should stop before you completely sink yourself.

[garren]

Originally Posted by August

You really should stop before you completely sink yourself.

I'll be quiet if you'll do the same. Equality right?

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by garren

One would conclude that when a gay man takes advantage of a straight man he's taking advantage of his sexuality and trying to strip him of his sense of masculinity, his heterosexuality. Rape is not about sex. It's about stealing a person identity from him. And one of those things is the persons sexuality. They want you to feel dirty and violated. They often tell you that you are now a "b-ch" and no longer a man and that you've just been indoctrinated into the gay club. It's literally like vampirism in a way. You get bit and you are now gay and always will be your whole life because you'll never forget it. It doesn't matter if you don't practice gay sex when you get out of prison. You are forever gay if you ever had gay sex.

Multiple Messiahs on multiple bicycles. There's not much point continuing this, seeing as you're convinced homosexuality is the same as vampirism.

Originally Posted by August

Biology and development do not require more distinction than slightly different plumbing arraignments. Sexuality is the primary driver for segregating the genders, especially with teenagers. Anything else is artificially induced in relation to that.

From what I understand sexuality is but a part of it. Genders mature and develop at different times and rates, different moods and changes. That said, mixed-sex schools get along just fine, as do single-sex schools.

Also gender is split roughly fifty/fifty, whereas sexuality is certainly a majority/minority situation that I don't believe warrants segregation, and I think any segregation perpetuates negative attitudes, especially in younger people.

Unfortunately that takes cooperation from both sides. Regardless of the decision there will be continued reason to keep talking about it.

Certainly not the level of discourse we're having now, and certainly not within scouting troops. I'd say once the BSA gets rid of these unhelpful restrictions it will get back to the business of Scouting. The adjustment will be minor, unless homophobia takes up more time in Scouting than I know. Just guessing, mind

More than perhaps, I am sure you are correct. The gay rights issue has extended to just about every facet of American life. It's almost impossible not to take a side anymore. But what is the percentage of corporate support vs religious? Something like 20/80%? What's gonna hurt more?

Oh I've no idea about the levels, you may well be right. I'd guess more religious organisations support it. Question is whether being exclusionary and fencing yourself off to a sector of society is worth it just to appease these organisations?

A Pyrrhic victory at best I think. I'm sure the churches and various other backers will continue with their own versions of Scouting. It's just the national non-secular organization that will loose out, and maybe it's time for that anyways. The nation is tearing itself apart on so many other issues it might as well tear on this one as well.

The rise of support and acceptance for homosexuals (and corresponding decrease in homophobic policymaking) has been blisteringly fast in recent years. I don't see it being a wedge issue for much longer, so I don't see the "tearing apart" happening here to any great extent.

Originally Posted by August

They might as well be. Like I said it's adding a whole new and complex aspect to Scouting that didn't exist beforehand. It's going to have a greater impact than a lot of people think.

Given the BP was reputedly a bit of a whoopsie isn't it just going back to the roots?

Originally Posted by garren

Why does everyone assume that the person with the unpopular opinion in any particular forum is trolling? Because from this end of the ship it sure feels like I'm being trolled just the same. Perhaps a moderator should come and split the ship in half with a torpedo and end this forum if we can't agree to disagree without the finger pointing and accusations of trolling.

I think the accusations of trolling are because people don't think you can really hold views which are as nonsensical as the ones you are writing.
You appear like a parody of an mindless extremist nutcase.

Originally Posted by August

No further than the discriminatory and exclusionary step of refusing access to all women to the Boy Scouts goes too far. The BSA is not a co-ed organization. The reason that the co-ed division exists is because of sexuality. Homosexuality is sexuality. What's the difference?



The same way it would if we made the Boy Scouts co-ed. You have brought sexual tension into a situation that did not openly contain it beforehand. You cannot deny it wouldn't have a major impact.

The boy scouts in its homeplace is co-ed, it doesn't appear to have made any impact over there

Originally Posted by Tchocky

It shouldn't be this easy to have this much fun.

Call it a godsend

Originally Posted by August

You really should stop before you completely sink yourself.

If he is trying to be serious he sunk himself with his first post, so its a bit late now.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by August

You really should stop before you completely sink yourself.

August, it's too late to save this guy. He's already stepped on the landmine...and then survived to take fire from the machine gun nest.

[garren]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Multiple Messiahs on multiple bicycles. There's not much point continuing this, seeing as you're convinced homosexuality is the same as vampirism.

From what I understand sexuality is but a part of it. Genders mature and develop at different times and rates, different moods and changes. That said, mixed-sex schools get along just fine, as do single-sex schools.

Also gender is split roughly fifty/fifty, whereas sexuality is certainly a majority/minority situation that I don't believe warrants segregation, and I think any segregation perpetuates negative attitudes, especially in younger people.

Certainly not the level of discourse we're having now, and certainly not within scouting troops. I'd say once the BSA gets rid of these unhelpful restrictions it will get back to the business of Scouting. The adjustment will be minor, unless homophobia takes up more time in Scouting than I know. Just guessing, mind

Oh I've no idea about the levels, you may well be right. I'd guess more religious organisations support it. Question is whether being exclusionary and fencing yourself off to a sector of society is worth it just to appease these organisations?

The rise of support and acceptance for homosexuals (and corresponding decrease in homophobic policymaking) has been blisteringly fast in recent years. I don't see it being a wedge issue for much longer, so I don't see the "tearing apart" happening here to any great extent.

It's always going to be segregated! Just because you mix people together through forced or changed policy doesn't mean they are going to be fine with it. Go to any school or prison in America. What do blacks and whites and Hispanics and straights and men and women do in mixed environments? They segregate themselves. So no matter how you try to convince yourself that this is a good step forward it's really not going to make a difference anyway and the kids will quickly segregate themselves from each other which will only cause more problems really. There was no male on female rape in the military until they forced women unto the men in the Navy and put them on the ships. Now there's a huge epidemic of male on female rape in the military. They said it wasn't going to be a problem. They were wrong. It's obviously a huge problem. So much so there's even movies about it now. So what's gonna happen? They gonna ban men from the military and let the women have it? Probably. That seems to be the answer nowadays. And then after some time they will try to reintroduce men back into the military and women will moan and grown and say that men aren't welcome. Government LOVES the games it creates and plays with the people.

The government forces integration. The people don't want it. Incidents become problematic and the government comes back and discriminates against the group that was there first with radical policies to cover up the mess they (the government) made. And here's the other thing - it's not the people or even religion that's the problem. It's government. Government is what's creating conflict in society and depends on conflict to keep itself relevant. Religion may have been the problem a long time ago when it was the government over the people, but now it's actual government that's the problem and making these issues into huge issues and creating hate and discrimination by forcing one group onto another. That creates conflict and the government uses that conflict to validate itself to grow itself to "control" the people it governs over. BIG government weak people. BIG government turns tyrannical and the people who are so divided and mixed up are too weak to rise up and remove the tyrants from office and take back their country. Obama seems to be a master at this divide and conquer bit. Everything with him is social issues. He doesn't pay any attention to the economy or jobs. It's only this group and that group and I'm gonna make it all better but he only makes it worse. Obama is the worst president ever next to Lincoln on how divided a country he can create.

[Stealhead]

Gay vampires? Hell yeah I'm in to that if they are hot lesbians.

Am I partly gay if I say or type the word gay?

[garren]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Gay vampires? Hell yeah I'm in to that if they are hot lesbians.

Am I partly gay if I say or type the word gay?

OMG, you just offended the woman group because you're not allowed to call them "hot" anymore. That's sexist these days. Better yet, just don't talk anymore cause you're sure to offend someone. Sssshhhh, don't offend the trees....

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Gay vampires? Hell yeah I'm in to that if they are hot lesbians.

Am I partly gay if I say or type the word gay?

No. If you say that word you are completely that way. I'm not because I haven't said that word.

Now the vampire thing? Nah... Vampires aren't that great.

Just a couple of facts to address some errors in certain peoples arguements.

The BSA has a policy of recruiting both male and females at all levels of leadership and for staffing their camps.
As far as co-ed goes 135 of 161 countries have co-ed scout movements.
Those that don't are places like Saudi, Kuwait and.... the US.

It does seem like the subsidairy arguements being brought in to support the rationality of a ban do not appear to be supported by fact

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by garren

It's always going to be segregated! Just because you mix people together through forced or changed policy doesn't mean they are going to be fine with it. Go to any school or prison in America. What do blacks and whites and Hispanics and straights and men and women do in mixed environments? They segregate themselves. So no matter how you try to convince yourself that this is a good step forward it's really not going to make a difference anyway and the kids will quickly segregate themselves from each other which will only cause more problems really.

So it's better to have the discrimination forced upon people to avoid problems? Seriously, what's your point? People tend to hang out with those they identify with, that's no surprise. What you're saying is we should segregate out groups of people so that they have to hang out with those they identify with and nobody else.

There was no male on female rape in the military until they forced women unto the men in the Navy and put them on the ships.

There's no forcing. Previously women were forced not to be in the military.

Now there's a huge epidemic of male on female rape in the military. They said it wasn't going to be a problem. They were wrong. It's obviously a huge problem. So much so there's even movies about it now. So what's gonna happen? They gonna ban men from the military and let the women have it? Probably. That seems to be the answer nowadays.

More like punish rapists and try to fix the problem. The problem you're alluding to is not one of integration, it's one of basic criminality and institutional accountability.

The government forces integration. The people don't want it. Incidents become problematic and the government comes back and discriminates against the group that was there first with radical policies to cover up the mess they (the government) made. And here's the other thing - it's not the people or even religion that's the problem. It's government.

I've no idea what you're talking about here.

Government is what's creating conflict in society and depends on conflict to keep itself relevant. Religion may have been the problem a long time ago when it was the government over the people, but now it's actual government that's the problem and making these issues into huge issues and creating hate and discrimination by forcing one group onto another. That creates conflict and the government uses that conflict to validate itself to grow itself to "control" the people it governs over.

The BSA decision is entirely independent of the government as it is a private organisation.

Please continue rambling.

[soopaman2]

Does this Garrin guy wear a clown mask and cackle as he says this crap, or is he serious?

Reminds me of a surly clown at a dunk booth. most people stop trying to hit the target that dunks the clown, and just tries to wail the clown with the ball.

How many bruises from thrown baseballs does this stooge have?



*Krusty the clown laugh*

[Stealhead]

He is completely incorrect in his assessment about the integration of women into the military.They started this way back in 1975 and only in the past few years has the number of reported sexual assaults risen.As Tribesman said there are other reasons for this.When I was in Air Force they had higher standards after 9/11 they started to lower them the Army and Marines in particular.You allow dirt bags in and they tend to do dirt bag things.

And garren I am living proof that you are wrong my father is white and my mother was born in Iran there are several million people like me in world that are mixed race that disprove you.